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Israeli settlement expansion is HUGE. If we don't keep them in their place, they're going to take over the world.
This actually reinforces my point.
The polled are inclined to dislike Obama's policies by a two to one margin. Yet the very same group comes out 56%-40% in favor of Obama's demand to halt the growth of the settlements.
When it comes to Israel (and Palestine), there's a much freer discussion inside Israel than there is here.
Israeli settlement expansion is HUGE. If we don't keep them in their place, they're going to take over the world.
Trying to downplay ethnic cleansing with arguments of scale.
Cute.
Tell me DarrinS, since you have done such an exhaustive study on the scope of the issue, how much lebensraum do you think Israel is due?
Thats one of an irrelevant post.
What else would you expect?
How inane. What does Israel's size have to do with any of this?
Joe Klein's riposte to Krauthammer.
[Krauthammer] does not deal with the legality of these towns--he can't, of course, because they are illegal under the fourth Geneva Convention, which provides rules for occupying powers. He does not deal with the illegality, and inhumanity, of building roads for the exclusive use of settlers, roads which simply take Palestinian property, separating Palestinian farmers from their fields in some cases. He does not deal with the most basic question--the not-so-subtle effort by the settler movement and its far-right sponsors to create a Palestinian swiss cheese, rather than a governable state, on the West Bank, by riddling the area with Jewish settlements. He does not deal, although it is implicit in his xenophobic argument and in the rantings of the extremists over at the Commentary blog, with the reality that this Israeli behavior is anachronistic, a vestige of the post-1967 dream of a Greater Israel. He does not deal with the fact that the last two Likud/Kadima Prime Ministers, Ariel Sharon and Ehud Olmert, came to the realization that demographic reality requires a viable Palestinian state on the West Bank and in Gaza.
Ethnic cleansing? Man, you've been listening to waaayyy too many Obama speeches lately.
Moral equivalence is one of a handful of mental disorders exhibited by modern liberals.
So what do you call it, DarrinS?
Enough buzzwords and and half-baked bull . Tell us all exactly what your position is on the illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank.
*OTOH* sets off contrast, not comparison. Your allegation that Obama posited some kind of moral equivalence is bogus and cliched.
FWIW, the true moral equivalence here is Apartheid, not the Holocaust.
Last edited by Winehole23; 06-05-2009 at 11:29 PM.
Yeah but how big is Israel compared to South Africa?
ehhh, actually, half props
one half because for once your post isn't blatantly-above-the-rim-wesley-snipes-style pro-jew
and minus the other half because it is not really that polarized (lol)
But I agree nonetheless.
The settlements have been in the top 3 priorities for addressing a possible peace settlement, since before I can find. I only started caring about this a couple years ago though.
What I find puzzling is why they seem to find the 'settlements' such a necessity. If they are really packed like sardines in their area, like some say, why doesn't the government sponsor immigration to another country? I refuse to believe the Israeli government has neither the money nor the political clout to settle citizens in another Mediterranean country. Yes, the distance would be farther, but the long term social and interactive benefits would be beneficialfor the nation of Israel. Instead of considering the West Bank a god-given right to them, why doesn't Israel focus on being as economically and socially bound to their sea shore neighbors as possible? There is actually a movement from more than one country to bring the countries of the Mediterranean closer together.
So, again, why are the talking heads from Israel so pro-settlement? What we are seeing there, is much like what we are seeing here...we are supposed to be seeing some huge change in Israel with "bibi" getting elected, but really, I see more of the same . Why are the Israeli's so pro-settlement?
I run it around in a few times and I can't help but come to the conclusion that it is nothing more than a bargaining chip. IIRC, the only settlements that should really matter to Israel are those around the Golan Heights, because of water resource issues. We could actually see something resembling progress if Diplobamacy can properly take advantage of this. If only we can walk that fine line, seeming to empower bibi to his lame ass hard-line cons uents, while actually providing the palestinians with something resembling autonomy life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. (wow how neocon of me)
PS I'm actually kinda bummed that Batmanuel has not presented his take on some of the more non-polarizing events going on lately that pertain to one Democratic Jesus he campaigned for . . .
Last edited by Cant_Be_Faded; 06-06-2009 at 03:47 AM.
And with that, Chump moves into a solid tie with Clambake as my favorite posters in the political forum.
Neither the Holocaust nor Apartheid is an appropriate comparison to what is going on in the Middle East. STFU with that stuff. It's offensive.
Wat. How is that offensive?
So noted. There was no intention to offend, but merely a historical comparison. Second class citizens are separated into discontinuous Bantustans inside their *homeland*. The Apartheid parallel is obvious to me. The racial angle is muddied by the fact that very many Israelis are racially identical to the Arabs they seek to displace.
We're still talking about the settlements, right SG?
Apartheid is by no means a universal metaphor or descriptor for the settlements issue, but it seems to me at least facially germane.
The nub of Krauthammer's article is that Israel is en led to nibble at the edges, and that any criticism is harmful to Israel and the special relationship.
Who is the hammer this time, and who is the nail? Time will tell.
All of the Islamic states surrounding Israel haven't done jack diddly squat for the Palestinians. I wonder why?
Let's say all "illegal" settlement activity ended and a Palestinian state was created. Do you really think this would end all the suicide bombings, etc. against Israelis? If you do believe that, you're living in your own little naive world.
EDIT> Heck, it you believe that, you probably also believe that Iran has "legitimate" uses for nuclear energy.
Oh, really? Have you asked Jordan about this recently?
Your strawman is on time, D.Let's say all "illegal" settlement activity ended and a Palestinian state was created. Do you really think this would end all the suicide bombings, etc. against Israelis? If you do believe that, you're living in your own little naive world.
Iran seems to have some have trouble refining energy for their own market. Well known, long time.EDIT> Heck, it you believe that, you probably also believe that Iran has "legitimate" uses for nuclear energy.
Plus the demographics are telling. You seem to hold legitimacy untenable before any examination of the case, but in Iran it is a commonplace of national development: they really do need the energy, and as an NPT signatory they have certain lawful privileges, among them the civil application of nuclear fuel cycle.
It is surely a point of guile peremptorily to declare something very plain and commonplace as being beyond all hope of salvation by reason.
Like Iran's demographic time bomb, and the related, foreseeable extra demand for energy and development.
The American state kisses Israel's ass because American politicians receive a large amount of support from those who want the US to kiss Israel's ass. American state support of Israel has done nothing except serve to further inflame those who currently want to 'kill us because we're free.' Lest we forget the Dobson/Hagee crowd who wants Israel to exist so that in the end, a bunch of Jews can die and go south.
Further, who cares? Why is this a matter of the federal government's concern?
Like Obama, DarrinS takes it for granted that it necessarily involves us.
Any gainsayers are filthy and unpatriotic freaks.
I agree with Obama that Islamists teach their children to become suicide bombers because of colonialism.
As long as we're posting maps comparing Israel to New Jersey and Vancouver Island, I thought I'd post a map of Israel I found pretty illuminating:
http://arabist.net/archives/2009/04/...n-archipelago/
An amazing map of Palestine, if you replace all of the areas controlled by Israel (roads, settlements, etc.) by water. The best illustration of the unworkable Bantustan model imposed by Israel I’ve seen.
From Strange Maps.
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