CBO estimate of cap and trade costs: $175 per year, per person

[Winehole23]

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/103xx/doc...TradeCosts.pdf

[DarkReign]

I read about the EU's cap and trade program (Scientific American). The "cap" isnt the problem so much as is the "trade". IIRC, each country is alloted so many "tickets" to be distributed/sold to private companies.

These companies can then use or sell/trade them. The demand for these "tickets" is above and beyond any precious metal you could imagine. They sell for millions/billions. Obviously, when that amount of money is exchanging through private hands, corruption, government buyoffs and political philandering are widespread throughout.

Its an all around horrible idea.

[Wild Cobra]

It's a sad day in America when our government officials are so stupid as to want to implement such programs.

[101A]

These companies can then use or sell/trade them. The demand for these "tickets" is above and beyond any precious metal you could imagine. They sell for millions/billions. Obviously, when that amount of money is exchanging through private hands, corruption, government buyoffs and political philandering are widespread throughout.

I think I'm beginning to understand what this whole global warming thing is all about.

[Wild Cobra]

I think I'm beginning to understand what this whole global warming thing is all about.

It always was. VP Gore is invested in the companies that will rack in the bux over reducing carbon emissions.

[coyotes_geek]

Not sure that giving companies another reason to outsource American jobs is really where we want to be going. We're already China's as it is thanks to all the money we're borrowing from them, do we really want to give them all our manufacturing jobs too?

[Wild Cobra]

Interesting read:

Cap-And-Trade: Al Gore's Cash Cow

[FaithInOne]

It's a sad day in America when our government officials are so stupid as to want to implement such programs.

It's a sad ing day in america when the americants cannot see this for what it is. Just another tool for government to gain control over business and citizens.

[101A]

Interesting read:

Cap-And-Trade: Al Gore's Cash Cow

From the article:

As Stephen Milloy, author of "Green ," points out, Goldman Sachs is lobbying for climate change legislation and is part owner of the Chicago Climate Exchange, where carbon credits from cap and trade would be traded.

In one sentence; Cap and Trade, Goldman Sachs AND Chicago.

Just a coincidence.

[Wild Cobra]

In one sentence; Cap and Trade, Goldman Sachs AND Chicago.

Just a coincidence.

Of course not. We have the new gangsters of Chicago running this nation.

[101A]

Of course not. We have the new gangsters of Chicago running this nation.

I think your sarcasm meter might be malfunctioning.

[Wild Cobra]

I think your sarcasm meter might be malfunctioning.

Who's being sarcastic?

I honestly believe they are purposely redirecting money to the benefit of themselves and friends. I do not believe they are stupid enough to do their actions by accident.

[101A]

Who's being sarcastic?

Me. We're not debating here; we're agreeing.

[DarrinS]

I'm skeptical of this estimate, but I'll read the entire report when I have time.

[Wild Cobra]

I'm skeptical of this estimate, but I'll read the entire report when I have time.

I'm skeptical too. Seem to me it will cost a whole lot more than that.

Besides, we all know CBO numbers are politically skewed for the results they want...

Anyone have the OBM (OMB?) numbers?

[coyotes_geek]

I've skimmed it, and it just looks like a big s game to me. That $175 value is a "net" amount based on the premise that the government is going to take in all this money and then spend it on things which will return value to the taxpayers. In other words the $175 is the difference between how much money you're going to be out of pocket for less the "goodies" the government is going to give you. The problem I see is that the money going out seems to be far more tangible and quantifiable than the alleged benefits taxpayers will get back.

On the "money out" side of a household's ledger, the gross cost is $890. That's the estimate for how much more we'll all have to go out of pocket to cover the higher costs of goods and services that the companies buying the carbon allowances will pass along to their consumers. Pretty tangible.

The "money in" side for households is pretty fuzzy and far less tangible. Over half the money collected gets sent directly to utilities and "trade exposed" businesses, and the theory is that money given to them will filter down to consumers. There's a chunk of money that will get sent directly to households, but that will be skewed towards low income families. And there's a chunk to go towards subsidizing clean energy technology.

So it looks like the money out is direct, but the money in is a combination of "trickle down" and "redistribution of wealth". It's also based on the theory that Congress will actually take the money and do with it what they're saying they're going to do. Which is not neccissarily a given. One thing I found curious, and very troubling, is that the analysis is for what the effects will be in 2020, 8 years after the legislation is supposed to go into effect. The do ent says (pg 2) that is done so that the economy would have time to adjust. Nowhere in the do ent did I find any analysis on what's supposed to happen between 2012 and 2020.

[Winehole23]

Final bill to be released less than 24 hours before the vote. It gained over 300 pages in committee. These changes and additions have not yet been publicly disclosed.

[Winehole23]

Vote to be held on Friday.

[SnakeBoy]

I hope they get it passed.

[Wild Cobra]

CBO may say that only $195 annual, but I heard it will make electricity cost 90% more.

Look at how much electricity is generated by coal and oil. Ask yourself how this affects energy. How about natural gas for your water heater and heating. How about gasoline costs? Diesel for Trucking?

Every means of energy that produces CO2 will be taxed! That affects everyone!

Hasn't this administration damaged this nation enough?

Why pass Full Chinese Employment Act. More and more corporations will manufacture in China where they don't have to put up with this bull .

[coyotes_geek]

Final bill to be released less than 24 hours before the vote. It gained over 300 pages in committee. These changes and additions have not yet been publicly disclosed.

Just a guess here, but I'm going to go ahead and say that those extra 300 pages did not make the price tag any cheaper.

Also, how refreshing to see the new democrat era of openness and transparency where major bills like cap and trade will be voted on before anyone in congress, the media or the public has time to fully digest what all is in it. Hope. Change. Yes we can.

[Wild Cobra]

Here is HR 2454.

Page 338 has little to do with Carbon emissions, are grants, and baffles me:

(aa) $24.00 per thousand gallons per year of potable water savings of 40 percent or more;

(bb) $27.00 per thousand gallons per year of potable water savings of 50 percent or more; and

(cc) $30.00 per thousand gallons per year of potable water savings of 60 percent or more.

A thousand gallons of water where I live costs $2.77. $2.07 per hundred cu. ft. and that is 748 gallons.

Ouch... Looking it up, it's set to increase to $2.44 per unit of 100 cu. ft. at the start of July. That makes a 1,000 gallons $3.26.

Page 959 starts with a "Consumer Assistance/Energy Tax Credit." I'm lost with the verbiage, but apparently this credit is up to $6000 annually. I guess this means during the year, as we pay almost double for electricity, gas, etc. that we get some of our money back, if we qualify. Unless they give us IOU's like California did to their people... Number on income are $20,000 for individuals and $25,000 for joint returns for the phase out of the credit. Looks like it doesn't help the real tax payers any. Figures I have seen by the CBO the average tax payer paying $190 more annually and the poor getting something like $40 annually back. Redistribution of wealth again, but that is only direct energy costs, and unreliable CBO numbers. Energy usage is everywhere. This could destroy what is left of the metals industries in America. So many other industries use high quan ies of energy too.

Again, this should be called the Chinese Full Employment Act.

[Wild Cobra]

Oh... Forgot.

The bill so far reads that electricity increases will be a minimum of :

$0.00043 Per kW hr. for Coal
$0.00022 Per kW hr. for Natural Gas
$0.00032 Per kW hr. for Oil

It doesn't list a maximum! Now a fraction of a cent isn't much, but I don't trust them. I didn't find gasoline increases. However, apparently new cars will be taxed by their annual carbon usage and the bill has credits into the thousands for trading in certain qualified vehicles and buying qualified ones. Must be a huge gas tax. I would assume based on the carbon emissions in gas, and the electrical carbon tax, that it will be a minimum of $0.03 per gallon. That's a conservative low estimate. Since they want to restrict it, I'll bet it will be at least $.10 per gallon.

Any new fossil fuel electrical generation initially permitted after 2019 is required to have a 65% or more decrease in CO2 emissions. This will make new power very expensive, unless we really have some energy breakthrough. Even nuclear powers is more expensive than coal, oil, etc. with all the regulations behind it.

[Wild Cobra]

Winehole's link ha a link to the 1201 page version:

HR 2454

[Wild Cobra]

They address Black Carbon in rather lose ways leaving wide open several controls.

Say good-bye to your fireplace!