Matt Barnes to Orlando

[DAF86]

It's interesting to read different opinions of players.

I've never really considered Hedo a great playmaker or one who made teammates better. He has nice, versatile skills and can handle the ball and pass. But he's not some great playmaker imo. When he defers during stretches of games, it's more about him drifting or coasting. He's not really setting up teammates. He's more just being non-existent. And he's not known as a player who makes the right play or plays the right way, crunchtime or not. He's a good player but some of you are hyping him way too much in order to blast on VC.

As for Vince, he has often taken a lot of shots because that's what his teams have required from him. He's always been a willing passer. In his four and a half years in New Jersey, he averaged just under5 assists a game, despite playing with a PG who did most of the play making and averaged 8-10 assists himself.

I think Vince is a better fit in Orlando actually because he's a bonafide go-to scorer who will force defenses to focus attention on him and won't "always" settle for jumpers. This will be the most talent he's played with in his career. Vince isn't like AI. He can play without dominating the ball and still be effective.

And there's nothing wrong with that, that's part of playing "the right way", I prefer that to a player that goes 6 for 20 in a game and doesn't allow his teammates to develop any kind of confidence.

[JamStone]

Problem is that is not Vince Carter. You really have a warped and inaccurate perception of Vince Carter.

[DAF86]

Of course. The spurs are my second favorite team, I watch them all the time.

Have you seen McGrady play? Even this year when he was almost paraplegic he was averaging 1.5 more assists than Ginobili. In 07 and 08 he averaged 5.9 ad 6.5 assists. He is unequivocally a better passer and playmaker than Manu. Thats one thing that should never be in contention.

So? Parker averages more assts than Manu and ask any Spurs fan who of the two is the better passer/playmaker. The reason McGrady averages more assts than Manu is 'cause he plays more minutes and has the ball in his hands a lot more.

[JamStone]

Everyone's going to have to give up touches to Carter? Minimally so. He was able to be effective playing primarily off the ball and sharing touches with Kidd and Jefferson. As far as shot attempts, Vince took about 3.5 more field goal attempts than Hedo, while attempting the same amount of free throws, and three pointers for that matter. And that was on a team where he and Devin Harris were heavily relied on to carry the offense. The Magic as a whole won't have to give up too many touches or shot attempts to accomodate Carter.

And here's how the perception of Vince is warped, with that 6-for-20 comment. In 80 games, VC had two games where he attempted 20 or more shots and made 6 or fewer of them. Twice in 80 games. And in both of those games he had 6 assists. Vince is often painted as a player he's not.

[picc84]

Problem is that is not Vince Carter. You really have a warped and inaccurate perception of Vince Carter.

Right. Vince has never been a freeze the teammates out guy. Even if he's shooting a lot he's still getting guys involved.

[picc84]

So? Parker averages more assts than Manu and ask any Spurs fan who of the two is the better passer/playmaker. The reason McGrady averages more assts than Manu is 'cause he plays more minutes and has the ball in his hands a lot more.

Agree to disagree.

But you're still wrong. : d

[DAF86]

Everyone's going to have to give up touches to Carter? Minimally so. He was able to be effective playing primarily off the ball and sharing touches with Kidd and Jefferson. As far as shot attempts, Vince took about 3.5 more field goal attempts than Hedo, while attempting the same amount of free throws, and three pointers for that matter. And that was on a team where he and Devin Harris were heavily relied on to carry the offense. The Magic as a whole won't have to give up too many touches or shot attempts to accomodate Carter.

And here's how the perception of Vince is warped, with that 6-for-20 comment. In 80 games, VC had two games where he attempted 20 or more shots and made 6 or fewer of them. Twice in 80 games. And in both of those games he had 6 assists. Vince is often painted as a player he's not.

Now go see how many times did Turkoglu do that, or better yet go see how many times he took 20 or more shots in a game.

[DAF86]

Agree to disagree.

But you're still wrong. : d

Yep, that's pretty much what happens in here

Oh, and I saw what you did there. Little

[picc84]

Everyone's going to have to give up touches to Carter? Minimally so. He was able to be effective playing primarily off the ball and sharing touches with Kidd and Jefferson. As far as shot attempts, Vince took about 3.5 more field goal attempts than Hedo, while attempting the same amount of free throws, and three pointers for that matter. And that was on a team where he and Devin Harris were heavily relied on to carry the offense. The Magic as a whole won't have to give up too many touches or shot attempts to accomodate Carter.

And here's how the perception of Vince is warped, with that 6-for-20 comment. In 80 games, VC had two games where he attempted 20 or more shots and made 6 or fewer of them. Twice in 80 games. And in both of those games he had 6 assists. Vince is often painted as a player he's not.

In addition, Orlando can diversify their offense now. Too often last year their O consisted of "give it to Dwight" or "pass around perimeter for 3 pointer". They now have a guy they can isolate on the wing and who can draw double teams on the perimeter. Hedo didn't do that.

[picc84]

Yep, that's pretty much what happens in here

Oh, and I saw what you did there. Little

Was that really necessary?

[DAF86]

In addition, Orlando can diversify their offense now. Too often last year their O consisted of "give it to Dwight" or "pass around perimeter for 3 pointer". They now have a guy they can isolate on the wing and who can draw double teams on the perimeter. Hedo didn't do that.

WTF? yes, yes he did.

[DAF86]

Was that really necessary?

I kid, I kid.

P/S: I had to quote you just to check.

[JamStone]

Now go see how many times did Turkoglu do that, or better yet go see how many times did he take 20 or more shots in a game.

Wasn't your point. We all could reasonably assume Hedo didn't take a lot of shots on a team with D12, Lewis, and Jameer.

Your point was to make Vince Carter appear to be a player he's not. Unless once every 40 games is evidence of what type of player VC is, then your comments and perception of Vince are inaccurate.

[23LeBronJames23]

McGrady is better than Ginobili !!!

[ElNono]

Count my vote for Manu being the better playmaker/passer.
Also put me down for TMac being the better shooter and more talented overall.
I think they're both extremely good as far as penetration goes, with TMac being more athletic and Manu being more crafty.
Obviously, this is when both are healthy.
They've both expressed admiration of the other's game. TMac even attempting to pull one of Manu's signature moves during the AllStar game they shared back 2005.

[DAF86]

Wasn't your point. We all could reasonably assume Hedo didn't take a lot of shots on a team with D12, Lewis, and Jameer.

Your point was to make Vince Carter appear to be a player he's not. Unless once every 40 games is evidence of what type of player VC is, then your comments and perception of Vince is inaccurate.

You know how hard is to make 6 or less FG in 20 or more shots? just to do it once in your career is bad enough, but to make it twice in just a season...

My point is this: If I need a first option player I would probably pick Carter over Turkoglu but if I need a 2nd or 3rd option to gel with his teammates in a championship team I'd pick Hedo.

[DAF86]

McGrady is better than Ginobili !!!

McGrady is the more physically gifted player, Ginobili is the better player.

[23LeBronJames23]

McGrady is the more physically gifted player, Ginobili is the better player.

i would still take Tmac over Nobli anytime!

[all_heart]

i would still take Tmac over Nobli anytime!

Go right ahead, I'll take Manu, get out of the first round and show you my next time we meet up!

[picc84]

lol Yes he did. Many times per game in fact.

Really? Didn't seem like it at all.

[JamStone]

You know how hard is to make 6 or less FG in 20 or more shots? just to do it once in your career is bad enough, but to make it twice in just a season...

Interesting. I'd love for you to tell me how horrible Tim Duncan is since he has multiple games in his career where he's taken 20 or more shots and made 6 or fewer, including a gem of 6-for-29 against the Raptors. Tell us how especially bad that is considering he's a 6-11 low post scorer.

Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili also have had such performances. They must not be good teammates who make other players better.

My point is this: If I need a first option player I would probably pick Carter over Turkoglu but if I need a 2nd or 3rd option to gel with his teammates in a championship team I'd pick Hedo.

Your point is lost in your obvious bias. You really want to keep arguing your silliness?

[DAF86]

Interesting. I'd love for you to tell me how horrible Tim Duncan is since he has multiple games in his career where he's taken 20 or more shots and made 6 or fewer, including a gem of 6-for-29 against the Raptors. Tell us how especially bad that is considering he's a 6-11 low post scorer.

Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili also have had such performances. They must not be good teammates who make other players better.

Now you're just making up, I'd really like to know in what game Manu did that. I think I can count with the fingers of my hands how many times Ginobili took 20 or more shots in a game and in all of them he had a good scoring night but I could be wrong so I want you to tell me.

Your point is lost in your obvious bias. You really want to keep arguing your silliness?

I don't have anything against VC or in favour of Hedo, I just call it how I see it. In fact I'd rather see Carter playing than Turkoglu.

[JamStone]

Now you're just making up, I'd really like to know in what game Manu did that. I think I can count with the fingers of my hands how many times Ginobili took 20 or more shots in a game and in all of them he had a good scoring night but I could be wrong so I want you to tell me.

Link: Enough, stop arguing this with me

[DAF86]

Link: Enough, stop arguing this with me

lol good thing I said I could be wrong. Now let me ask you this: How the do you remember that? Did you remember the game or you just look it up 'till you find it?

[JamStone]

I looked it up. Went to basketball reference and did a quick search. It's easy because they have a feature of all the game logs of every player for every season. It takes about a minute to look over a full season scrolling down. Takes a little bit of effort, but minimal effort if you know what you're doing. Just wanted to make the point using Spurs players.