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And then slipping a smidge to 40% of the les in the 00's ain't nothing to sneeze at either.
Come on Spur Fan. You guys are better than that. Give credit where credit is due. All this talk about "Magic not being able to hold MJ's strap" and "Soft" is fine and dandy but you can't take away the talent that was Showtime. I mean really. Sour grapes at it's best.
The '87-'88 Lakers squad is considered by many to be the best group of players ever assembled. I can't remember when and where I read and heard this but I remember this specific analysis nonetheless. Is it true? I don't know but head to toe they were the ultimate complete team. No weakness whatsoever and if there is one........winning 50% of the les in the 80's is pretty damn good at least in my book.
THEY WERE THAT GOOD. Spur fan in here who goes back to the 80's will tell you that. The Spurs managed to assemble some pretty damn impressive teams back then only to get their hearts broken time and time again and we are talking about Gervin led teams. I mean, George Gervin. The man was one prolific scorer.
As far as this youtube piece goes; Who knows if Kareem fouled or not. The better team won and maybe Detroit get robbed but there was no stopping that Lakers team in that series. Age and time became evident the next year but not this series. No way. Besides, the guarantee was already made by Riles.
Give credit where it's due guys. If your a purist of the game like I am, you'll recognize it and I am giving the '80's Spurs squads some credit here. They weren't push-overs and for a Laker team to beat the Spurs back then they way they did spoke volumes about those Laker teams.
Last edited by TheManFromAcme; 07-22-2009 at 01:53 PM.
And then slipping a smidge to 40% of the les in the 00's ain't nothing to sneeze at either.
Bird takes a hot steamy on Bowen without much effort.
No Bird is just an overated white basketball player who beat 2 mediocore Houston teams twice and 1 Laker team that was hurting.
Celtics could never beat a full strength 1980's Laker team....and you want to say the Celts are better than the defensive minded Spurs... no freaking way...In the 1980's NOBODY PLAYED DEFENSE!!!!!!!!!
That 2nd Houston team wasn't mediocre at all. It had just beaten a full strength Laker team in 5 games.
No that would be the all-time line-ups.
Actually what gets me is that these ESPN lovers say the 1980's Celtics are a dynasty and don't consider the 2000's Spurs a dynasty in it's self.
The Spurs have never lost a NBA Finals the Celtics lost to the Lakers twice, they never repeated nor did the Spurs. But a conference le repeat counts? That's Stupid. That's like considering the Buffalo Bills a dynasty.
If they were great they would have beaten Boston, so they were Mediocre, they only got lucky to beat LA!
Gervin has a point here, ESPECIALLY with the two rings ove the Houston teams. Those were gimmes, but, that's how it's done. You only have so many hammer & tong Finals matchups. The vast lion's share of Finals are gimmes, but, they count toward the total nonetheless.
And Isaiah Thomas called out Bird and whiteness that one time and was sternly admonished by Stern and it went away, but, I believe it had to do with Bird being compared to another player (black) by Thomas,,,,Dantley maybe, anybody remember the particulars?
AGREED
That comment was more just to get under lakaluva's skin. The same way he starts "Jefferson is Gay" threads to rile up Spurs fans... I take it back, Magic COULD hold MJ's jockstrap, but not his Air Jordans.
In all seriousness, Magic is one of the best at his position ever. I don't intend to discredit his accomplishments. He was clutch from the day he came into the league.
In your argument you try to use guys in the 80's who were actually in their prime in the 90's just because they first started playing in the league in the 80s. So what's the point in arguing when you twist the facts to make them seemingly support your opinion? More than half the guys on your list had their best season's as a pro in the 90s (either best stats of their career, MVP awards, or championships), you just found a technicality to add them your all time greats 80's team. Should I go look up guys who came into the league in 1997-2000 and use them in my argument even though they didn't really enter their prime until the 2000's? Again, what's the point?
I didn't know tough nosed defense is defined as mugging? You're trying to take your OPINION of things and make it into fact. An opinion will always be an opinion. Just because your OPINION is that the "quality of ball was not very good overall in the 90's," does not make it a fact.
I never said those were not great teams. The original argument was 80's Lakers vs. 90's Bulls. YOU brought up the Celtics and Pistons, not me. I WAS a Laker fan in the 80's when I hadn't learned the game completely, because they were entertaining. Eventually I learned to appreciate DEFENSE and stopped being a "Showtime" fan. Looking back now, I liked how the Pistons played, and to some extent the Celtics. I think the '89 Pistons were the team 90's teams tried to emulate, which led to defense becoming the focus of more teams. Overall my OPINION is STILL that most teams didn't play defense in the 80's. The LATE 80's Pistons were a team that changed the way the game was played going into the 90's.
I didn't know we were giving out each other's resumes here? But if it makes you feel any better, I too am a former player and coach. Besides playing in HS, I coached basketball at the HS and Jr High levels here in the San Antonio area for 8 years. Not some YMCA or AAU team, that any Dad with a clipboard can coach in. And don't worry, I won't demand to know your age before I decide whether or not your opinion qualifies as a good one. As far as you waiting to here my legitimate argument? Come on... you and I both know no matter how many stats/scenarios I throw at you otherwise, I'm not going to change your opinion. It won't be "legitimate enough" in your eyes.
I doubt you'll ever find the stats to back up that there were more layups and dunks in the 90s than the 80s. No defense means easy shot and lots of layups/dunks. Feel free to try though...
Apology accepted... I too have enjoyed someone bringing real info to the table instead of "LOL 15 rings gots, LOL 4-1 to the Mavs, LOL .4" like so many other Laker fans. You have your reasons for the 80's being better, I have mine for the 90s being better.
Disagree on the 2000's though. The league has turned basketball into a sissy sport this decade with the hand check rules. Every new rule that has been passed in the 2000's has been done so to "entertain" the fans and cater to the offense. I like defense, while the uniformed fan wants to see high scoring games and flashy dunks. You seem to be somewhere in between. But that's my OPINION, not a fact.
ON another note, this is why I hate AAU basketball. The undisciplined play in those leagues (along with the NBA glorifying the dunkers) has caused young players to be more worried about increasing their vertical leap than working on their mid-range and outside shot. Because dunks and fast breaks put people in the seats, everyone wants to dunk and fast break. So I agree with you that TODAY'S players are worse shooters than the 80's or 70's players, but I also believe teams like the Lakers are partially to blame for it. SHOWTIME was idolized by kids and the NBA went "all in" on their scheme and especially when Jordan took off they overhyped the dunk. The result: young college players who could dunk, run, and jump, but are worthless outside of 10 feet from the rim. So they NBA tried to change the rules to make up for the changing athlete. But that's another argument all together for another time...
What was really weird about that '88 Finals was the 7th game and the way it ended with Detroit unable to launch a tieing 3 because the crowd half assed overran the court. Does anybody remember that? It was almost surreal and Detroit didn't even complain. I think Rodman had it last on the right side of the court going right to left just after half court and the crowd came swarmin' in.
What drugs was your mom doing when she was pregnant?
I really agree with you for the most part here, especially the last part about the lack of skills and fundamentals at the AAU level. If i still lived in SA (i now reside in Dallas)...I think we would have a lot in common. I too have coached on the HS level boys and girls but now i stick to the youth leagues because emy sons are 3 & 7 and i hope to coach them at least part of the time...the 80's vs 90's argument aside I think we share some similar views ...though I blame AND 1 and Sportscenter more than AAU ...it just has trickled down from there. I personally feel even with the softer rules ...the talent level has increased this past decade.AGREED
That comment was more just to get under lakaluva's skin. The same way he starts "Jefferson is Gay" threads to rile up Spurs fans... I take it back, Magic COULD hold MJ's jockstrap, but not his Air Jordans.
In all seriousness, Magic is one of the best at his position ever. I don't intend to discredit his accomplishments. He was clutch from the day he came into the league.
In your argument you try to use guys in the 80's who were actually in their prime in the 90's just because they first started playing in the league in the 80s. So what's the point in arguing when you twist the facts to make them seemingly support your opinion? More than half the guys on your list had their best season's as a pro in the 90s (either best stats of their career, MVP awards, or championships), you just found a technicality to add them your all time greats 80's team. Should I go look up guys who came into the league in 1997-2000 and use them in my argument even though they didn't really enter their prime until the 2000's? Again, what's the point?
I didn't know tough nosed defense is defined as mugging? You're trying to take your OPINION of things and make it into fact. An opinion will always be an opinion. Just because your OPINION is that the "quality of ball was not very good overall in the 90's," does not make it a fact.
I never said those were not great teams. The original argument was 80's Lakers vs. 90's Bulls. YOU brought up the Celtics and Pistons, not me. I WAS a Laker fan in the 80's when I hadn't learned the game completely, because they were entertaining. Eventually I learned to appreciate DEFENSE and stopped being a "Showtime" fan. Looking back now, I liked how the Pistons played, and to some extent the Celtics. I think the '89 Pistons were the team 90's teams tried to emulate, which led to defense becoming the focus of more teams. Overall my OPINION is STILL that most teams didn't play defense in the 80's. The LATE 80's Pistons were a team that changed the way the game was played going into the 90's.
I didn't know we were giving out each other's resumes here? But if it makes you feel any better, I too am a former player and coach. Besides playing in HS, I coached basketball at the HS and Jr High levels here in the San Antonio area for 8 years. Not some YMCA or AAU team, that any Dad with a clipboard can coach in. And don't worry, I won't demand to know your age before I decide whether or not your opinion qualifies as a good one. As far as you waiting to here my legitimate argument? Come on... you and I both know no matter how many stats/scenarios I throw at you otherwise, I'm not going to change your opinion. It won't be "legitimate enough" in your eyes.
I doubt you'll ever find the stats to back up that there were more layups and dunks in the 90s than the 80s. No defense means easy shot and lots of layups/dunks. Feel free to try though...
Apology accepted... I too have enjoyed someone bringing real info to the table instead of "LOL 15 rings gots, LOL 4-1 to the Mavs, LOL .4" like so many other Laker fans. You have your reasons for the 80's being better, I have mine for the 90s being better.
Disagree on the 2000's though. The league has turned basketball into a sissy sport this decade with the hand check rules. Every new rule that has been passed in the 2000's has been done so to "entertain" the fans and cater to the offense. I like defense, while the uniformed fan wants to see high scoring games and flashy dunks. You seem to be somewhere in between. But that's my OPINION, not a fact.
ON another note, this is why I hate AAU basketball. The undisciplined play in those leagues (along with the NBA glorifying the dunkers) has caused young players to be more worried about increasing their vertical leap than working on their mid-range and outside shot. Because dunks and fast breaks put people in the seats, everyone wants to dunk and fast break. So I agree with you that TODAY'S players are worse shooters than the 80's or 70's players, but I also believe teams like the Lakers are partially to blame for it. SHOWTIME was idolized by kids and the NBA went "all in" on their scheme and especially when Jordan took off they overhyped the dunk. The result: young college players who could dunk, run, and jump, but are worthless outside of 10 feet from the rim. So they NBA tried to change the rules to make up for the changing athlete. But that's another argument all together for another time...
I will concede som of the players i mentioned DD have their best year in the 90's ...no doubt about that BUT I did not have to twist anything to show that in the later part of the 80's we ther was the aging Alltimers along with a crop of HOf'ers ready to move the game in the 90's I just think there was the greatest convergence of HOF'ers with high skillset, and basketball IQ and i prefer that over most of the ballin the 90's Like knicks, heat and Cavs played in that decade ...
You're ing re ed.
Glad someone else shares my sentiment about AAU. I am still a teacher in the NB area and constantly deal with kids missing school (and even their SCHOOL TEAM games and practices) for these AAU and Club team tourneys that their "club coaches" say they have to attend if they want any chance of being scouted for college. It's insane how they brainwash them at a young age. Even Jr High kids think they can't miss a "showcase tournament" or it'll cost them a scholarship.
I agree with you on the "And 1" and Sportcenter thing though. They have glorified "showmanship" over sportsmanship and hard work. I have 2 girls (ages 5 and 2) that I also hope to coach one day. They are the reason I left the HS coaching ranks. I got tired of never seeing them during basketball and tennis season. I figure if I coach them I can keep them away from these greedy, "win-at-all-costs" volleyball, soccer, and softball coaches that want them playing tournaments every weekend from the time they are 8 years old, and want to charge me $1000's of dollars for a "chance" at a scholarship in college. I saw it all the time as a HS coach, and even now as a MS teacher. But again, that's another story for another time.
Glad we have agreed to put our differences aside. Sorry if I pushed any buttons with you, and look forward to future basketball debates with you.
Dunc, gettin' his ass smootcher on.
Jealous, Culburn? I noticed you've been stalking my posts lately. Even making up stories about me PM'ing you. Sad really...
Well, I figged that since you'd been stalking my thread qui pro quo was indicated.
Savvy?
My mom did none ...and she died of cancer fool...
But back to your point...I don't think the 1980's Celtics were that good
pretty much every playoff run they had they were forced 5 (1st rnd)to 7 games in the ECSF and ECF. If Boston was a dominating team...they would have finshed those games in 5. Clearly 3 gimme NBA tiltles and alot of fixing...EEERRRRR..... Luck 4 them!
But seeing your a bitter suns fan I can clearly see your Spurs hate!
Don't hate because your Mavs suck, if Cuban wouldn't be a re you might have gotten one in 2006! So your team is not among the elite.
Seeing that u love the celtics so much I piss you off even more those les in the 1950's are paper championships.
10 teams in the NBA and no compe ion.... ho hum !
P.S.: Larry Bird STILL Sucks, even Erving and Gervin were better than him!
You notice that when they talk about the Celtics they never talk about the Houston wins....they talk about the rivaly...and the Celts always got slapped by the Lakers EVERYTIME....If I'm a fan I would hate to talk about my team getting punked in the Finals!
Gerv, the Celtics whipped our ass pretty bad in '84. That whipping did serve as a wake up call for Magic Johnson and transformed him and our franchise, but, we were " slapped" nonetheless.
And the fact remains::: you don't choose your compe ion::: the Houston wins were gimmes for Boston, but, we had three gimmes in-a-row earlier this decade and one to end it.
It is what is.
Quit being an attention by bumping your own appreciation thread and I'll quit pointing it out to others. I thought you were better than that; you know schooled in the "NBA arts?"
Dunc, dude, sweetheart, if you want my thread to not get bumped yer gonna have to pe ion it's extinction.
---
And quit holding a grude over the "NBA arts" thingy. So what if Phoenix Suns fans are more educated in the NBA arts than Spurs fans are. You Spurs fandom are hip about bags & re s. Ain't the end of the world. Jeez, they've got no rings and you got three,,,plus that strike one.
It's funny how untrue that is.
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