McDyess vs lakers last season

[DrHouse]

No, Artest is not next in line. Where did I say that? You asked for the elite SF defenders, guys who can shut down Kobe/Pierce/Melo...Only Lebron has that ability and even then it is tough because they are all great offensive players that cannot really be stopped unless you swarm them with multiple players and keep the ball out of their hands.

I am saying that the players mentioned cannot be stopped, even when you have elite defenders. When Artest/Bruce/Kobe...were still elite defenders, guys like Kobe/Wade/Bron/Melo still had very good numbers. They might have had to work harder or had some bad nights, but overall the offense wins.

Artest is still a good defensive player, just not better than Ariza. He is different for all of the reasons I outlined.

You seem to have a knack for completely ignoring factual evidence that completely disputes your arguments.

You say Ron Artest is not an elite defender anymore and yet he held the top 3 SF's in the game to BELOW THEIR CAREER AVERAGES.

You're not going to stop the best players in the game, but if you can keep them at or slightly below their averages you are most certainly doing your job defensively.

[DPG21920]

You seem to have a knack for completely ignoring factual evidence that completely disputes your arguments.

You say Ron Artest is not an elite defender anymore and yet he held the top 3 SF's in the game to BELOW THEIR CAREER AVERAGES.

You're not going to stop the best players in the game, but if you can keep them at or slightly below their averages you are most certainly doing your job defensively.

Did Battier play this year? Because having two solid SF defenders certainly helps against the aforementioned guys.

I did not say Artest is a poor defender, I said he has lost a step on the perimeter and is not elite. I also said he is no better than Ariza overall (take into consideration guarding multiple positions, perimeter defense, post defense, team/help defense, blocks, steals).

Artest has a different defensive skill set than Ariza. IMO it is a wash defensively overall all things considered.

[Muser]

So..Mcdyess last season?

[DPG21920]

Im sure he played in most, if not all, but thats not the point. When Battier and Artest are on the floor, Battier guards the shooting guards. When TMAC was on the floor, he guarded the shooting guards. The guys you mentioned that would destroy Artest play the 3 position.

Admit you were wrong, and lets end this silly discussion. Artest is one of the top defenders in the league... still. Which is why you refused to give a list. He is number three behind Battier, and James... in that order. I gave stats where he shut down Manu while Manu was in his prime, and I gave you stats of him keeping Melo, and James below their averages just this past season, and keeping Pierce from going off.

You have thoroughly loss this argument, and we are going to thoroughly whoop that ass if the Spurs make it past the Mavs.

You gave stats from 2006? I can post Duncan stats from 06, are those representative of Duncan today? No.

You list Battier as a better defender as Ron, who also is a SF and played on the same team, then list the numbers as if Artest did all of the damage when it is clearly not true.

Everyone knows Artest has lost a step. You are acting like he is a significant upgrade over Ariza defensively. He is a wash all things considered. He is still a solid defender, but you are using the word "elite" to liberally.

Just because he "might" be the 3rd best SF defender, does not mean he is elite.

[DPG21920]

But you dont have any numbers showing that those players will beast against Artest. Right.

Well, I saw what Kobe did to him IN THE PLAYOFFS. I can post those numbers for you.

If your argument is that Kobe is a SG and is far superior offensively and plays much differently than Bron/Melo/Pierce then that is your opinion.

My point is that if a guy like Dr.House (whom you don't agree with about Ariza getting torched by the likes of Melo/Bron...) says Artest will help on the best offensive players (SF's / SG's...) then I say no. It will be a wash.

Artest may be more effective on the average players, but the elite players will still torch him just like Kobe in the playoffs.

[Spurs_210]

No Kobe said Ginobili was a warrior, great player etc.

He never said he was afraid of him. who could be afraid of someone on the bench in a suit?

He said "that's a bad boy" basically showing his respect but your right he didn't say he was scared. Not sure where fear came from....

[DPG21920]

Battier shares the majority of that burden. I know Artest is no longer the best defensive player in the league. But, you cant even talk about the top defenders without mentioning his name.

So is he elite and can he do a better job than Ariza in stopping Melo/Pierce/Lebron/Wade/Parker....?

Now he is a top defensive player in the league? Not even just for SF? Is he an upgrade over Ariza defensively overall?

[DPG21920]

Yes he is an upgrade over Ariza defensively. You have to understand pedigrees. Artest was either the best defensive player in the league, or one of the best, while playing on four different teams. Ariza was the benefactor of a great system. Prior to coming to LA, Ariza was not known for his defense, only his occasional dunks.

Now you want argue that a 9 year vet that has made a living off of guarding the teams best wing and perimeter players is not better than a guy that just showed up on the scene and had a few good games???

Its funny, because when we were saying how much we missed Ariza last season against Boston, all of you guys were saying he was a scrub and would have gotten torched anyway. You guys flip/flop points to benefit and fuel your hate for the Lakers. But the stats I provided remains the same, and thats Artest will hold his own against any top wing player in the league.

You keep bringing up the past. Artest was once an elite defender, so was Bowen. I know Artest is not nearly as old as Bowen, but his defense has slipped. He no longer can guard the elite wing/perimeter players unless it is in the low block.

I am not even saying that Ariza was better. I am saying for the Laker team, what Ariza could provide (perimeter defense on positions 1-3 along with steals and help defense) will be a wash with the different tools that Artest brings.

RJ does the same thing and many say he lost a step. He always guarded the other teams best perimeter players for NJ. He is the same age as Artest.

You provided stats from 2006 with regards to Gino. Not relevant. You provided stats from this year, but ignored the fact Battier, who you claim is better than Artest defensively, was on the team and played a major role in helping on Pierce/Melo/Bron.

Only idiot Spurs fans that act like you do would say that Ariza was a scrub. Many Spurs fans wanted Ariza before he went to the Lakers. Yes we all hate the Lakers for the most part, but the ones who are basketball fans still respect them and call a spade a spade.

[DPG21920]

It seems all of the experts agree with me, and that's Artest is one of the best defenders in the league, and hes right where I ranked him as the third best wing defender.

Where is your Ariza? He was on the best, most popular team, and only got one ing vote.

Argue with that.

Defensive Player of the Year Presented by Kia Motors Voting

PLAYER TEAM 1st (5 Pts) 2nd (3 Pts) 3rd (1 pt) Total
Dwight Howard Orlando 105 4 5 542
LeBron James Cleveland 4 36 20 148
Dwyane Wade Miami 3 20 15 90
Shane Battier Houston 2 17 10 71
Ron Artest Houston 1 13 10 54
Chris Paul New Orleans 1 9 17 49
Kobe Bryant LA Lakers 2 6 15 43
Kevin Garnett Boston 1 6 8 31
Chris Andersen Denver - 2 4 10
Rajon Rondo Boston - 2 2 8
Tim Duncan San Antonio - 1 4 7
Raja Bell Charlotte - 1 1 4
Anderson Varejao Cleveland - 1 - 3
Andre Iguodala Philadelphia - 1 - 3
Ronny Turiaf Golden State - - 2 2
Trevor Ariza LA Lakers - - 1 1
Marcus Camby LA Clippers - - 1 1
Grant Hill Phoenix - - 1 1
Joel Pryzbilla Portland - - 1 1
Hedo Turkoglu Orlando - - 1 1

I thought any list that had Hedo or Hill or Camby or Anderson or CP3 was garbage? Are they all elite defenders? Because they are on the list.

[DPG21920]

Yes, and Battier is ahead of him. Yet you give no credit to him when posting numbers. Do you watch the NBA? Artest is a good defender, but not elite. There are not very many elite defenders in the NBA.

[DPG21920]

Once again, the experts in the NBA Agree with me that Artest is a top five defender, and a top 3 wing defender. Now you trying to take credit from Artest and give credit to Battier to defend your post. The fact is Ariza may as well not even been on the list, but you claim he and Artest are a wash.

Like I said once before. Artest does everything better than Ariza except jumping the lanes better than. Stats dont lie.

What stats? You are giving no credit to Battier to defend your post. Even fans at LG agree that Artest has lost a step and is not an elite defender any more. He is not very good on the perimeter.

Also Rocket fans say the same thing.

[DPG21920]

Well, there is no convincing you, so we can just say wait and see.

[bishopospurs]

Ron Loves Puppies

[DPG21920]

Ok....

Defensive Win Shares
1. Dwight Howard-ORL 7.6
2. LeBron James-CLE 6.3
3. Rajon Rondo-BOS 5.0
4. Yao Ming-HOU 4.9
5. Rashard Lewis-ORL 4.9
6. Tim Duncan-SAS 4.9
7. Paul Pierce-BOS 4.8
8. Chris Paul-NOH 4.7
9. Anderson Varejao-CLE 4.5
10. Gerald Wallace-CHA 4.4
11. Kendrick Perkins-BOS 4.4
12. Hedo Turkoglu-ORL 4.4
13. Emeka Okafor-CHA 4.4
14. Lamar Odom-LAL 4.3
15. Pau Gasol-LAL 4.3
16. Dwyane Wade-MIA 4.3
17. Luis Scola-HOU 4.2
18. Kobe Bryant-LAL 4.2
19. Kevin Garnett-BOS 4.1
20. Ron Artest-HOU


Defensive Rating
1. Dwight Howard-ORL 94.6
2. Kevin Garnett-BOS 97.5
3. LeBron James-CLE 99.1
4. Anderson Varejao-CLE 100.0
5. Kendrick Perkins-BOS 100.2
6. Tim Duncan-SAS 100.2
7. Zydrunas Ilgauskas-CLE 100.5
8. Chris Andersen-DEN 100.6
9. Yao Ming-HOU 100.9
10. Rajon Rondo-BOS 100.9
11. Lamar Odom-LAL 101.7
12. Trevor Ariza-LAL 102.2
13. Gerald Wallace-CHA 102.4
14. Joel Przybilla-POR 102.4
15. Luis Scola-HOU 102.4
16. Samuel Dalembert-PHI 102.6
17. Emeka Okafor-CHA 102.7
18. Rashard Lewis-ORL 102.8
19. Chris Paul-NOH 103.1
20. Rasheed Wallace-DET 103.4


These numbers have him not in the elite category. I watched the games and you can clearly see he lost his lateral quickness. It is not that he is the worst defender ever, but not an elite defender any more. Good low post defender, sub par perimeter defender.

LOL!!! You have sunken to a new low my friend. You use those idiots over at LG, and the sour grape Rockets fans as your reference, when I've given you the votes of the experts, and the stats that prove without a shadow of a doubt that Artest can hold his own against the top wing players in the league just as of last season.

You are a special breed my friend.

[carrao45]

It seems all of the experts agree with me, and that's Artest is one of the best defenders in the league, and hes right where I ranked him as the third best wing defender.

Where is your Ariza? He was on the best, most popular team, and only got one ing vote.

Argue with that.

Defensive Player of the Year Presented by Kia Motors Voting

PLAYER TEAM 1st (5 Pts) 2nd (3 Pts) 3rd (1 pt) Total
Dwight Howard Orlando 105 4 5 542
LeBron James Cleveland 4 36 20 148
Dwyane Wade Miami 3 20 15 90
Shane Battier Houston 2 17 10 71
Ron Artest Houston 1 13 10 54
Chris Paul New Orleans 1 9 17 49
Kobe Bryant LA Lakers 2 6 15 43
Kevin Garnett Boston 1 6 8 31
Chris Andersen Denver - 2 4 10
Rajon Rondo Boston - 2 2 8
Tim Duncan San Antonio - 1 4 7
Raja Bell Charlotte - 1 1 4
Anderson Varejao Cleveland - 1 - 3
Andre Iguodala Philadelphia - 1 - 3
Ronny Turiaf Golden State - - 2 2
Trevor Ariza LA Lakers - - 1 1
Marcus Camby LA Clippers - - 1 1
Grant Hill Phoenix - - 1 1
Joel Pryzbilla Portland - - 1 1
Hedo Turkoglu Orlando - - 1 1

LeBron being anywhere near the top of DPOY voting destroys the credibility of the list. But Artest is a great defender

[carrao45]

What stats? You are giving no credit to Battier to defend your post. Even fans at LG agree that Artest has lost a step and is not an elite defender any more. He is not very good on the perimeter.

Also Rocket fans say the same thing.

Yes the fans on some internet board prove that Artest is not elite. That makes sense

[DPG21920]

Yes the fans on some internet board prove that Artest is not elite. That makes sense

Where did I say that? Context dude. I am saying that many who watched Artest think this.

Watching him play is what proves he is not elite. Once again, the term "elite" is being thrown around too loosely.

[DPG21920]

No, DP. You miserably fail to understand what elite means. Amongst NBA players, Artest is an elite defender. Elite, not in the sense of all-time defenders, but elite, as in one of the top 5 in this league. If the votes and opinions of those who follow this sport for a living doesn't matter, then what does?

The guy has been an elite defender since day one in this league, and now at the age of 29 you'd like to say hes a wash with a guy that has no history of playing defense.

. He is a wash with what he brings to the lakers. Yes Ron was once elite, he no longer is.

Edit: Misread. Thought you said I said Ron was washed up.

[DPG21920]

One thing I do know is Ron is pumped to be a Laker. In his own words, he brings a whole another level to the Lakers.

He does. No one is denying that. I never said he was not an upgrade overall. Just on this issue. Should be exciting.