is manu the best international player of all time?

[Findog]

Manu was the MVP in 05 finals.

No, he wasn't. He came up a vote or two short of tying Duncan for co-MVP. Parker has a Finals MVP too, but ask anybody on that Cleveland squad who was the best player and you won't get TP as the answer.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

So I guess LeBron James isn't as good a player as Manu because he wasn't the best player on a Gold Medal Squad and has 0 rings? And it's a ridiculous argument full of hypothetical conjecture to say San Antonio would be better off and would've won more rings with a prime LBJ instead of a prime Manu?

Argentina: Manu and several other NBA caliber players.
Germany: Dirk and a bunch of dudes that couldn't hold the court at a 24 Hour Fitness.

Manu is a #2 guy. Dirk is a #1 guy. Manu has the same number of championships as the best player on his team that Dirk does: 0. Dirk has 1 more Finals appearance as the best player on his team than Manu does: 1. Put Dirk alongside Duncan and he has 3 rings, if not more.

Dirk had Kaman on his team and still didn't win . Stop making up things.

[Findog]

Dirk can make more shots more often. That's talent. There's much more to basketball than that.

Yeah, you're right. Dirk is nothing but a white Bob McAdoo. That's why he's also not a better player than Amare Stoudemire or Chris Bosh.

[jag]

Career wise, it's not even up for debate: Manu > Dirk. If you're just talking innate basketball talent, then Dirk is the more talented player. T-Mac is arguably more talented than Manu too if you were to play a one on one game.
But we're talking basketball, where you have to consider much more than simply who scores more.

Robert Horry has 7 rings. Has he had a better career than Manu?

Your argument is ridiculous. Which player would you have drafted if they were both available at the same time in whichever draft?

Manu has been apart of better teams and better systems...so what? Dirk is still a better player, and he will be remembered as such.

[Findog]

Dirk had Kaman on his team and still didn't win . Stop making up things.

Kaman is a lumbering stiff with foot problems. Who gives a ?

[Rogue]

Career wise, it's not even up for debate: Manu > Dirk. If you're just talking innate basketball talent, then Dirk is the more talented player. T-Mac is arguably more talented than Manu too if you were to play a one on one game.
But we're talking basketball, where you have to consider much more than simply who scores more.

You should also agree Horry > Jordan as Jordan only has 6 rings while Horry has 7.

[ElNono]

I'm not aware of Manu making it to the Finals 3 times otherwise.

Actually I forgot one more...

- Olympic games Final
- World Championship Final
- Euroleague Final
- Italian Final
- Italian Cup Final

The Worlds is the only one he didn't win (yet).

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

If you're not counting Hakeem as an international player (which he really wasn't), then Sabonis is easily the best international player of all time.

The Dirk vs. Manu argument is merely to know who is a distant 2nd place.

Sabonis was 4th best just in Europe in his era.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Talentwise, Team USA was far superior to Argentina's squad. It's not even debateable.

Manu singlehandedly willed his team to a Gold... you must not have seen his performances against the US both at the 2002 WC in Indianapolis or at the 2004 Athens games...

And since you like debating hypotheticals... swapping Manu with Dirk on that Argentinian squad would have resulted in a victory for the US Squad.... simple as that.

You must not have seen gold medal game in 2004. Scola led Argentina to the gold medal win over Italy not Manu. I love Manu but let us not make up lies here.

[ElNono]

You should also agree Horry > Jordan as Jordan only has 6 rings while Horry has 7.

No. There's defense. There's the extra effort to will your teams to win. There's leadership. Those are qualities that go beyond your innate talent, and are absolutely required.

[Rogue]

Sabonis was 4th best just in Europe in his era.

yes, Sabonis isn't Greek.

[IronMexican]

I know Dirk wont get hurt on purpose and miss the playoffs.

[jag]

Actually I forgot one more...

- Olympic games Final
- World Championship Final
- Euroleague Final
- Italian Final
- Italian Cup Final

The Worlds is the only one he didn't win (yet).

Manu has been great against lesser European talent. Dirk was the MVP in a league with the world's best.

[ElNono]

Yeah, you're right. Dirk is nothing but a white Bob McAdoo. That's why he's also not a better player than Amare Stoudemire or Chris Bosh.

McAdoo has 2 NBA les. Call me back when Dirk gets there.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

I'd like their chances...because if Dirk were born in Argentina, that means he'd be playing with the national squad and developing chemistry over a long span of time just like Manu did...whereas the US squads were thrown together in a haphazard fashion with little emphasis on what works in FIBA as opposed to the NBA.

Your excuses are laughable. EVERY single team changes out 3-4 players every tournament, even ones like Argentina and Spain.

Team USA has same core of players together every year just like them. Also Greece for example changes like 5-6 rotation players almost every tournament. Your made up fantasy excuses for Team USA are ridiculous.

[Findog]

Actually I forgot one more...

- Olympic games Final
- World Championship Final
- Euroleague Final
- Italian Final
- Italian Cup Final

The Worlds is the only one he didn't win (yet).

So the what? Dirk was an NBA rookie at 19, and established himself as a good player by the time he was 21. Manu wasn't good enough to play in the NBA until he was 25. I'm pretty sure Dirk would have some minor-league trophies of his own if he had stuck around that long.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

You would have a point if those Argentina teams would have even won a single medal without Ginobili. He had talented teammates, but none a superstar, except himself. He doesn't play for Germany, so we won't know.

Argentina won the bronze medal game against Lithuania at 2008 Olympics without Manu. I am starting to think most here do not even watch FIBA tournaments.

[Findog]

McAdoo has 2 NBA les. .

Brian Scalabrine and DJ Mbenga each have a ring.

[jag]

McAdoo has 2 NBA les. Call me back when Dirk gets there.

Switch Manu with Dirk and the Spurs have 8 les and Manu would never have seen the WCF while leading the Mavs.

[ElNono]

Manu has been great against lesser European talent. Dirk was the MVP in a league with the world's best.

Manu actually had to go through Dirk *AND* Team USA to get to at least 2 of those Finals. You can't just chalk it up to lesser talent. He has won his good share in the NBA also, making the All Star team and willing his team to a good chunk of wins in the playoffs to capture those 3 championships he has.
While I can't say he was the best player on those teams, you can't say he was not an integral part of any of them. And yeah, I'm including 2003.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Kaman is a lumbering stiff with foot problems. Who gives a ?

That you make up nonsense over and over. Dirk had several good teammates for example in 2008. So STFU.

[ElNono]

Argentina won the bronze medal game against Lithuania at 2008 Olympics without Manu. I am starting to think most here do not even watch FIBA tournaments.

you Gyro. We don't make it there without Manu averaging 20 ppg on all the previous games.

[Rogue]

No. There's defense. There's the extra effort to will your teams to win. There's leadership. Those are qualities that go beyond your innate talent, and are absolutely required.

Manu only won 1 gold medal as the leader of his team, though no one gives a crap to the Olympics. On the Spurs team, Manu was just the leader of several bench-off players and even Tony Longoria was more of a leader when both of them were on court. Bruce Bowen and Tim Duncan were the framework of the Spurs defensive system, which made the entire team so great in defense, but i can't see Manu has done more in this area than any other Spur has.

[Findog]

Manu actually had to go through Dirk *AND* Team USA to get to at least 2 of those Finals.

Argentina >>>> Germany
Dirk >>> Manu.

[jag]

Manu actually had to go through Dirk *AND* Team USA to get to at least 2 of those Finals. You can't just chalk it up to lesser talent. He has won his good share in the NBA also, making the All Star team and willing his team to a good chunk of wins in the playoffs to capture those 3 championships he has.
While I can't say he was the best player on those teams, you can't say he was not an integral part of any of them. And yeah, I'm including 2003.

You're hyping him for making one all star appearance? Manu is a great player and has had a great career, but you're making a ridiculous argument. It's been easy for manu to showcase his talent while he's 3rd on the mind of opposing defenses.