If prime Robinson and prime Duncan switched era's

[Phenomanul]

He isn't denying that they made their own shots. He is saying they got those open shots because of the attention that Hakeem demanded.

I never denied that this is how they got their looks...

You are trying to give more credit to the role players making shots, as opposed to the star who requires a double team to get other guys looks. Sorry, but that makes no sense, especially when every guy you mention, outside of Drexler and maybe Cassell, really wasn't that great at creating their own shots.

Despite all of his greatness, Olojuwon doesn't win the series if Elie doesn't make that 3 point dagger in Game 1... and if Elliott doesn't miss two freethrows at the end of that very game... What makes no sense is your attempt to convince us that these clutch moments are irrelevant.

I don't care if Olojuwon had scored 81 points in that game... the game still came down to a game winner... One which ultimately had to be made by the 'role' player... The dichotomy in your thinking is stupefying...

And how many times must I say it... Olojuwon played out of his mind in that series... but that doesn't take away the fact that he acted like a childish jackass by publically stating that Robinson didn't deserve the MVP award that year...

Like I mentioned earlier, this argument is as silly as me saying the Spurs role players in 2003 made the engine go, as opposed to Duncan who led the team in everything and got those dudes wide open shots because of the attention that he demanded.

Duncan made the Spurs engine go, sure... no one is denying that. Nevertheless, he wouldn't have held the Larry O'Brien trophy that June if Kerr hadn't delivered that amazing moment in Game 6 against the Mavs. Unlike you, I'm willing to credit those players for contributing to that championship run... As Cassell once said, "Rockets fans are an ungrateful bunch..." Now I know why he would say that...

As far as deciding who makes the engine go, you go with the player that requires the most attention. Do Elie, Horry, Cassell, or Smith require a double team to contain them?

Please don't insult my intelligence with such an absurd question... I never implied that they did... though it may have helped if the Spurs had decided to throw some different looks to Cassell in Game 2 of that series...

How often do they score when they aren't shooting wide open shots? How in the do they get wide open shots in the first place? What player can you not contain 1-1? What player creates open looks for other players? You know the answer to all of these questions. To assert that Hakeem wasn't the player making the system go makes absoultely no sense.

What I'm saying is that the offensive scheme only worked because the guys outside were knocking down their shots... as shown in Game 4, Robinson had an Olojuwonesque game when his shooters began to knock down their shots...
it's called synergy... Things would have been far more even if this had been the case throughout the series...

As far as the scheme to contain Robinson....was Robinson not double teamed in the regular season? Did he receive a level of attention in the 95 WCF's that he never had before? The answer to both of those questions is no. He just was facing a dude that he couldn't dominate, and his play suffered.

Olojuwon rarely defended Robinson 1v1 in that series... and when he did, Olojuwon picked up fouls. The Spurs should have defended Olojuwon the same way the Rockets defended Robinson... with the other frontcourt players... using Olojuwon only as a help defender on Robinson...

Again, your star player is not supposed to allow a dude to score 40 a night on him on 60% shooting to close a series.

So how that work for Amare Stoudemire and the Phoenix Suns in 2005??? Apparently someone can go off in a series and still lose... the difference was that the Spurs' didn't have Gregg Popovich running the show yet... Popovich would have recognized that guarding Olojuwon with your best offensive weapon was ineffective and detrimental.

Your star player is not supposed to shoot 37% in an elimination game, even when he is being double teamed (what stars receive single coverage in the first place????). Will you please address these points, that you keep glossing over.

I'm not glossing them over... you just keep insisting that only two players played in that series... Look, I've already acknowledged that David played subpar basketball in Game 5... But that game didn't kill them nearly as much as having lost the first two games at home... games in which the Spurs shooters shot a combined 39% from the field... games in which the Spurs second best front court player decided to chuck up three pointers to piss off his coach...

I am not trying to say all of the blame is on David.

Doesn't seem like it... You keep pointing to his subpar outings in Games 5 and 6 as an indication that He alone lost the series...

You win and lose as a team.

You know... I hear you saying it... but I don't believe you understand what that means...

But it's silly to sit here and keep saying his teammates let him down when his level of production took a big decrease,

I can assure you that Olojuwon's production would have decreased similarly if his shooters had missed most of their shots... Oh wait... that kind of happened in Game 4. Fact of the matter is that the Rockets' inside/outside offense worked so effectively because Olojuwon was a great player, but also because the 'role' players you so eagerly dismiss knocked down their shots... Nothing you can say will change that reality.

[wekko368]

Fact of the matter is that the Rockets' inside/outside offense worked so effectively because Olojuwon was a great player, but also because the 'role' players you so eagerly dismiss knocked down their shots... Nothing you can say will change that reality.

I have to give kudos to you. I'd be ashamed of myself if I clung to this argument for so long. Of course the Rockets don't win unless role players make shots. No team can win unless role players make shots.

The problem with your perception is that you're giving the role players too much credit. You're making it sound like they were equally as important as Olajuwon when they were nowhere close.

What if I told you that the overall fg percentages for Elie, Cassell, Smith, Drexler, and Horry were lower in the Spurs series than they were in the regular season?

To be fair though, Horry and Elie dramatically improved their 3pt%.

Here's a fantastic example for you:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=283302166

Remember that game? Curry came into the game averaging 35 ppg. Loyola decided to double team him exclusively. Curry countered by standing in the corner and allowing his team to play 4 against 3. Davidson eventually won by 30 and Curry didn't score a single point.

In your opinion, who was more integral to the Wildcat win....Curry or the rest of the Davidson Wildcats?

[ambchang]

What's the point? The Rockets' 3 point shooters were generally open because Olajuwon required extra defensive attention. However, there seems to a number of Spurs fans who would rather believe that Horry, Cassell, and K.Smith were playmakers.

Cassell was most definitely a playmaker, so was Drexler. Elie, Horry and Smith were mostly recipients of passes. But that is beside the point.

It’s obvious that the Rockets built an inside-out offense because of Olajuwon, there really is no point in arguing that. The point is, the Rockets built an inside-out offense by surrounding Olajuwon with fantastic 3-pt shooters who performed under pressure. The Spurs decided to single team Olajuwon throughout the series, let him go off, and hope that the other players don’t kill them, the rationale is that Olajuwon himself can’t score enough by himself to beat a team. This strategy worked in 88 when the Mavs shut down the Rockets cast, and Hakeem went off for 37.5 ppg, shooting 30% of the Rockets FGA. It didn’t work for the Spurs because players like Del Negro can’t guard anybody on the outside, least of which a guy like Drexler, or even guys like Elie, Cassell, or any perimeter players the Rockets put on the floor, because they were either too quick, too strong, or in most cases, BOTH for Del Negro to guard. Then there is Rodman, who left his man wide open for shot after shot after shot.

There are two ways to face a team with a single superstar, one is to let him go off, and shut down everybody else, the other is to shut down the superstar, and dare his supporting cast to beat you. The 95 Spurs did neither, they let Hakeem go off by single teaming him most of the time, but they couldn’t even defend the other guys around him.

Why not go to another team's board and ask them whether they think the 95 Rockets/Spurs series was determined more by the matchup of the supporting casts or the matchup between Olajuwon/Robinson?

Those people are unbiased? The perception has already been made that Robinson is inferior to Olajuwon due to that one series, how were they unbiased? If anything, those people not only are biased, they are also unknowledgeable because they don’t care enough to actually watch that series multiple times.

Actually, given the Rockets' style of inside-out play, that should be all the proof you need. Additionally, I gave statistics showing how Robinson's production declined when compared to his regular season numbers.

You mean like looking it up on a page? That’s some in-depth analysis you have right there. How about look at the years when Robinson really had a guard around him and see how he performed? How about looking at the years when his start point guard was not good enough to make the cut as the 3rd string point guard on the Rockets? Or how his starting shooting guard couldn’t even hang on with the Milwaukee Bucks, or how his best teammate ever, an All-Star SF, struggled in the lone year he was in Detroit, or how many points his multi-colour haired PF scored. How about looking at how the Spurs performed with and without Robinson?

You just don’t seem to get that inside out has TWO components, there is an out. You know what kind of “Out” the Spurs had?

Use common sense. Why would Spurs' defenders leave their man to help Olajuwon? Obviously, it was because Olajuwon was being dominant.

You mean Robinson is dominant too because he was being double and tripled throughout the whole series? You also mean that Olajuwon’s teammates have the ability to knockdown shots? I mean, let me get this straight, are you saying Olajuwon was actually scoring 35ppg in that series despite being double and tripled throughout the playoffs? Are you trying to dismiss that the Rockets of that year set the record of most 3 pters made?

Can you give me one example in NBA history where a team used long range shooting as a means to create space for their post player?

The 94 Rockets, 95 Rockets, any team O’Neal was on from 94 all the way to at least 04, 03 to 07 Spurs. The mid 80’s Lakers team.

I am curious, what other ways do you have for creating space for a post player? Packing the lane with another post player?

Also, the Rockets' offense at the time was inside-out....not outside-in.

Nobody is saying that the Kenny Smiths and Sam Cassells are creating shots for Olajuwon, what everyone is saying is that the Smiths, Elies, Cassells, Drexlers and Horrys are creating a situation where the defending team has to decide whether to stop them or stop Olajuwon.

True, he never fouled out. Also, in that one game where he played fewer minutes, he played about the same number of minutes as Robinson.

But he did get into foul trouble, right?

[ambchang]

If you're using a train to transport cargo from Point A to Point B, both the locomotive and the railcars are essential.

But no one in their right mind would say that the railcars are anywhere near as important as the locomotive.

Too bad basketball is not a train.

Let me clear this up for you.

The 95 Rockets were an inside-out team, they have a dominant inside player in Olajuwon to make it work. However, they also need shooters to actually make shots for the system to work, or else they would have a situation like the 88 Rockets where Olajuwon could score 37.5 ppg and get kicked out in the 1st round in 4 games because nobody else can score; or they would have a case like the 90 Rockets, where Olajuwon scores 18.3 ppg on 46.9% shooting and have a guy like Otis Thorpe, Vernon Maxwell, and Sleepy Floyd outscore him because there are no one to open up the lanes for Olajuwon, and get kicked out in 4 games in the 1st round.

You honestly think this is a game of one on one when a player decides to take over? Then you would agree that Vlade Divacs is a better defensive player than James Donaldson and David Robinson. In fact, he is twice the defender. But then it’s obvious to those who actually watched the game to know that it was simply the case of different defensive schemes. And those defensive schemes is predicated upon what the Rockets offense can do.

In the case of the 95 Rockets, there is a LOT they could do on offense. They were not a one man wrecking crew, they have dominant inside play by Olajuwon, they have a slashing game in Drexler and Cassell, they have great outside shooting in 4 of the 5 positions. This was a very tough team to beat, and was the blueprint for the dominant 3-peat Lakers, and the Duncan Spurs.

Repeat this after me, basketball is a team game, Olajuwon scored all these points because he was a great player, but also because his teammates allowed him to have the space to score.

[kingmalaki]

Phenomanul

Of course the Rockets dont win without role players making big shots (i.e. the Elie shot that you mentioned). But they also aren't in the game if Hakeem (the high scorer) doesn't keep them in the game, and Elie doesn't have a wide open look without Hakeem's presence. This is what you keep glossing over. The #2 or #3 option on a team is not more important than the #1 option that draws all the attention, and whom the system is based around. That's what you are trying to argue, and it doesn't make sense. A role player is not just as important, or more important than the star, especially not when the star is dropping near 40 over the course of the series, on a great shooting %.

And again, I'm not trying to say it's all on David. I'm saying stop blasting his teammates and giving him a pass. The facts are the series was knotted 2-2 after 4 games. Over the next two games, one center had a huge increase in production compared to what he normally gave his team, and the other center had a huge decrease. Those are the facts. Robinsons teammates didn't show up, but neither did he....especially in the last two games. The series was basically 0-0 after 4 games, and the Spurs had homecourt. At that point it's a best of 3 series.

I am curious to hear your response to the Curry example as well.

[ambchang]

BTW, I am still waiting some response, or at least acknowledgement, on how Robinson could have shot 10 for 15 the game the Spurs made 9 3 pointers, or in the only game where the Spurs outshot the Rockets in 3 pters (4 to 3), the Spurs won by 22.

[kingmalaki]

ambchang

Can you please stop saying the Rockets decided to double and triple David all series long, while the Sprus always single covered Hakeem? That simply isn't true. I have the games on DVD. Watch the games and you will see Hakeem getting doubled often (how do you think dudes got their wide open looks), and you will also see Hakeem holding David 1-1 often. Both centers were checked 1-1 and doubled in that series. I don't know how this myth got to be so popular on this board, especially when there are plenty of youtube highlights showing Hakeem shaking Robinson out of his boots in 1-1 coverage.

[kingmalaki]

BTW, I am still waiting some response, or at least acknowledgement, on how Robinson could have shot 10 for 15 the game the Spurs made 9 3 pointers, or in the only game where the Spurs outshot the Rockets in 3 pters (4 to 3), the Spurs won by 22.

I would be all for that argument if Robinson didn't shoot so poorly over the final 2 games. A star can make no field goals and his teammates can hit everything to bail him out (i.e. the Curry example). However, the Spurs were built on David scoring points at a decent percentage. Is it suprising that they lost when his production decreased? Again I ask, weren't the Spurs a not so great long distance shooting team all season? Hasn't David been doubled teamed his entire career? Yet, they still had the #1 seed in 95 right? You are mentioning these things as if they are new occurances. Doesn't it make some sense that the Spurs won in spite of all these things in 95, when Robinson was dominating....and when he was no longer the dominant player on the court and actually putting up worse numbers (much worse shooting wise over the last 2 games), then they lost?

[ambchang]

Phenomanul

Of course the Rockets dont win without role players making big shots (i.e. the Elie shot that you mentioned). But they also aren't in the game if Hakeem (the high scorer) doesn't keep them in the game, and Elie doesn't have a wide open look without Hakeem's presence. This is what you keep glossing over. The #2 or #3 option on a team is not more important than the #1 option that draws all the attention, and whom the system is based around. That's what you are trying to argue, and it doesn't make sense. A role player is not just as important, or more important than the star, especially not when the star is dropping near 40 over the course of the series, on a great shooting %.

Nobody is saying that the supporting cast is more important than Olajuwon, but without that supporting cast, Olajuwon can’t dominate like he did.

The success of the team is made up of many different components, find me a championship team, and you can almost point to a case where they would not have won a championship without a role player stepping up.

What had been the argument, was that Olajuwon couldn’t possibly have scored 40ppg and still won the series if his supporting casts are not making any shots.

What had been the argument is that if the Spurs had anyone who can actually nail an open shot, Robinson would have either scored more, or the Spurs would have won the series.

And again, I'm not trying to say it's all on David. I'm saying stop blasting his teammates and giving him a pass. The facts are the series was knotted 2-2 after 4 games. Over the next two games, one center had a huge increase in production compared to what he normally gave his team, and the other center had a huge decrease. Those are the facts. Robinsons teammates didn't show up, but neither did he....especially in the last two games. The series was basically 0-0 after 4 games, and the Spurs had homecourt. At that point it's a best of 3 series.

In Game 6, Hakeem had 8 assists along with those 42 points. He got 8 assists because his teammates are making their outside shots. If his teammates were not making their outside shots, the game would have been a lot closer than a 21 point blowout. In that game, Horry had 13 rebounds, outrebounding the supposedly best rebounding player in the history of the league by 1. Sam Cassell, the backup point guard of the Rockets, had 5 more assists than the starting PG of the Spurs. The Rockets had 31 assists to the Spurs 17, but they only made 6 more shots. That points to superior ball movement. Avery Johnson, the guy who couldn’t shoot, had 15 shots in the game, the same as Robinson. Perhaps it’s because Robinson couldn’t get decent shots off because he was doubled and tripled throughout he game.

I am curious to hear your response to the Curry example as well.

Please repeat that, I’ve missed it.

[ambchang]

ambchang

Can you please stop saying the Rockets decided to double and triple David all series long, while the Sprus always single covered Hakeem? That simply isn't true. I have the games on DVD. Watch the games and you will see Hakeem getting doubled often (how do you think dudes got their wide open looks), and you will also see Hakeem holding David 1-1 often. Both centers were checked 1-1 and doubled in that series. I don't know how this myth got to be so popular on this board, especially when there are plenty of youtube highlights showing Hakeem shaking Robinson out of his boots in 1-1 coverage.

I can’t, because those are the facts. And you personally said it, Olajuwon shook Robinson out of his boots in 1-1 coverage.

Robinson was continuously doubled and tripled.

I would be all for that argument if Robinson didn't shoot so poorly over the final 2 games. A star can make no field goals and his teammates can hit everything to bail him out (i.e. the Curry example). However, the Spurs were built on David scoring points at a decent percentage. Is it suprising that they lost when his production decreased? Again I ask, weren't the Spurs a not so great long distance shooting team all season? Hasn't David been doubled teamed his entire career? Yet, they still had the #1 seed in 95 right? You are mentioning these things as if they are new occurances. Doesn't it make some sense that the Spurs won in spite of all these things in 95, when Robinson was dominating....and when he was no longer the dominant player on the court and actually putting up worse numbers (much worse shooting wise over the last 2 games), then they lost?

And the fact that the team won 62 games spoke to how great Robinson was. The Spurs had multiple holes in their offense, and those were exploited in the playoffs. So what Robinson really should have done is to not score as well in the regular season, tanked the season, and gotten shooters to help him out. So you figured Robinson just somehow decided to miss shots? Did Olajuwon decided to do that against the Lakers in the 90s playoffs?

Robinson doing everything that he could to carry a flawed team to the best record in the league shouldn’t be something that he should be penalized upon, it should be something that speaks to the greatness of him. That 95 team won 59 games the following season after losing one of the supposedly greatest rebounder in the history of the league. But once they lost David Robinson, they won only 20 games. This speaks to how ridiculously flawed the team was.

As for the Rockets, one year removed from the playoffs, they got swept by the Finalist Sonics. Did Olajuwon suddenly decide not to care? Afterall, he scored 26.9 ppg in the regular season, but “only” 22.4 ppg in the playoffs Including 6 points in game 1 on 3-9 shooting. You may argue that Ervin Johnson was such an all world defender that he held Olajuwon to 18.25 ppg on 47.5. Or may Shawn Kemp was such an amazing player that he just killed Olajuwon on every turn. But the truth of the matter is because Seattle employed a fantastic defensive scheme around Hakeem, and allowed the supporting cast to shoot their 3s. It didn’t matter that the Rockets made 9, 13, 11 and 10 3 pters in the game, because the Sonics made 10, 20, 6 and 5 of their own, neutralizing the Rockets outside shooting, and allowing them to crowd the lane on the defensive end.

[sam1617]

I love how people give David for losing to one of the, if not the all-time best C's EVER in Hakeem. Timmy loses to Dirk, and gets dominated by Amare offensively.

And like Ambchang says, the Spurs won 20 games without David. The Spurs without Timmy is still essentially a .500 team, if not a little better. There is no comparison in talent level on those rosters. It was David and Sean against the world, and as much as I love Sean, he's a 5th option on this years Spurs team and a 4th option on our 05 and 07 teams.

[ulosturedge]

Houston caught fire in there first run to the Championship. No one was stopping them. And if you can't see the disparity in the supporting casts between the 94-95 Spurs/Houston rosters or even between the Robinson era rosters to the Duncan era rosters.. well then your blind. Like it is being said no one wins it ALONE, NO ONE. I mean Magic had Kareem, Isiah had Dumars, MJ had Pippen, Stockton had Malone, KJ had Barkley, Kemp had Payton.. i'm sure there is more. Not to mention some of those names didn't even win a championship. Who was the second best player on Robinson's team? TC? Elliott? That kind of pales in comparison to some of these future hall of famers or proven all-star caliber players.

The second part of the problem is coaching. I can't even count how many piss poor coaches Robinson had to play under. Robinson's best chances to win were under Larry Brown and Bob Hill. Under Larry Brown the team was too young and not ready to step up to the big playoff atmosphere. Under Bob Hill the dude was clueless on making adjustments or anything involving defensive schemes during the playoffs.

In otherwords, a HOF'er still needs a solid supporting cast and good coaching to win championships. Neither of which Robinson had the pleasure of having during his career.


Note: And sorry for the gripe. I just hate the Robinson/Duncan comparisons because their situations were completely different. A ton of people put Duncan on this pedalstool and treat Robinson like he didn't have the will to win or he wasn't good enough. I saw Robinson's entire career growing up and I have nothing but respect for him and everything he did to try and carry mediocre teams(lol) to the championship. He dominated just as much as Duncan did, but just didn't have neither the coaching nor supporting cast to really make legitament runs.

Btw all these Duncan homers didn't even see Robinson play in his prime, if they saw anything it was the butt end of his career which was like a 1/4 of what he really was in his career. Its hard for me even to remember his prime because Championships are what sticks out in my mind the most. When I see old highlight reels it all comes back though..

[wekko368]

I love how people give David for losing to one of the, if not the all-time best C's EVER in Hakeem. Timmy loses to Dirk, and gets dominated by Amare offensively.

Exactly. There's no shame in losing to Olajuwon. He went through all the elite centers in his era.

What I find interesting is that a few posters here refuse to believe it happened. They insist that it was the Rockets' role players that pulled the team to victory. They point to the inadequacies of the the Spurs' supporting cast while ignoring Robinson's own decreased postseason numbers.

[Mel_13]

Exactly. There's no shame in losing to Olajuwon. He went through all the elite centers in his era.

What I find interesting is that a few posters here refuse to believe it happened. They insist that it was the Rockets' role players that pulled the team to victory

Maybe now you will concede that if Olajuwon and Robinson had played to an absolute standstill, the Rockets still would have won that series because the rest of Olujuwon's team was superior to the rest of Robinson's team.

[wekko368]

I can’t, because those are the facts. And you personally said it, Olajuwon shook Robinson out of his boots in 1-1 coverage.

Robinson was continuously doubled and tripled.

The guy says he has the games on DVD, and the footage refutes your claims yet you still refuse to admit you're wrong.

Do you actually believe your memory is more accurate than complete game footage?

[Phenomanul]

The guy says he has the games on DVD, and the footage refutes your claims yet you still refuse to admit you're wrong.

Do you actually believe your memory is more accurate than complete game footage?

Actually I doubt he has the series on DVD...

I acquired game footage of all 6 games (parts of Games 3 and Games 6 are missing) about 7 years ago... ON VHS... after years of searching for the footage no less... the games were recorded when the games first aired by a Rockets fan I befriended in that timeframe... My brother lost the set by loaning them to a friend of his...

Last year prior to Olojuwon's induction into the HoF they re-aired Game 6 for the first time ever since the series played out... Like I said, it takes more than a few statements for his claim to convince me.

If his statement were true then he would have known that the Spurs' shooters shot less than 30% in the fourth quarters of losses.... by his logic however 'role' players don't matter... 'role' players don't grant the spacing for the post player to be effective... Delusional his thinking is (yoda speak)...

Rockets fan needs to be grateful for the fact that the Rockets didn't face the Spurs in the playoffs during Robinson's first two years in the league... when he actually had a 'decent' supporting cast and coaching... I would have added a year to that range but the Rockets didn't even make the playoffs in Robinson's third year... that off-season you all picked up Robert Horry and the following off-season, Sam Cassell; two moves which shifted the tide of power to your favor. Not that you'd understand just how important those acquisitions were given your line of reasoning...

[ambchang]

Exactly. There's no shame in losing to Olajuwon. He went through all the elite centers in his era.

What I find interesting is that a few posters here refuse to believe it happened. They insist that it was the Rockets' role players that pulled the team to victory. They point to the inadequacies of the the Spurs' supporting cast while ignoring Robinson's own decreased postseason numbers.

Quotes please.

If anything I actually read gems suggesting that the Spurs lost because Robinson didn't pull through.

[ambchang]

The guy says he has the games on DVD, and the footage refutes your claims yet you still refuse to admit you're wrong.

Do you actually believe your memory is more accurate than complete game footage?

There is only one copy of that series on DVD in the entire universe, with no other medium, and kingmalaki holds that copy.

Thanks for ignoring all the other points you can't answer.

[ambchang]

Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind a copy of that series on DVD, kingmalaki, can you burn me a copy? VHS sucks, and I am trying to get rid of that hunk of junk.

[wekko368]

Maybe now you will concede that if Olajuwon and Robinson had played to an absolute standstill, the Rockets still would have won that series because the rest of Olujuwon's team was superior to the rest of Robinson's team.

The only game where Olajuwon and Robinson played to an absolute standstill was game 4, and the Spurs won.

[wekko368]

There is only one copy of that series on DVD in the entire universe, with no other medium, and kingmalaki holds that copy.

Thanks for ignoring all the other points you can't answer.

First of all, since he's a Rocket's fan, its very possible he had the games on VHS and later transferred them to DVD.

I know I have the 94 finals on VHS somewhere.

And I didn't ignore any of your points. If you present a point which I haven't already addressed, I'll be happy to respond. It's annoying answering the same thing over and over.

[Mel_13]

The only game where Olajuwon and Robinson played to an absolute standstill was game 4, and the Spurs won.

Since you have chosen to avoid the question posed, I will rephrase.

You have gone on for several days and pages in an attempt to prove a point you believe to be self-evident.

I'm not challenging you on that issue, you have enough debate partners there.

I'm simply asking you to concede what also seems self-evident, that the Rockets roster minus Hakeem was superior to Spurs roster minus David.

Do you agree or disagree?

[wekko368]

Since you have chosen to avoid the question posed, I will rephrase.

I'm not avoiding anything. You gave a hypothetical situation with your expected result. Game 4 was an actual game that adhered to your parameters and had the opposite result.

I'm simply asking you to concede what also seems self-evident, that the Rockets roster minus Hakeem was superior to Spurs roster minus David.

Do you agree or disagree?

I agree to the point that if each team's role players had to play 10 games against each other, I think the Rockets role players would win either 5 or 6 of the games.

When you think about the individual matchups, its really not as self-evident as you might think.

[Mel_13]

I agree to the point that if each team's role players had to play 10 games against each other, I think the Rockets role players would win either 5 or 6 of the games.

So your contention is that Hakeem's supporting cast was barely better than David's, if at all?

[wekko368]

So your contention is that Hakeem's supporting cast was barely better than David's, if at all?

It depends on the presence of Olajuwon. Without him, the Rockets' supporting cast was barely better than Robinson's.

However, if you include Olajuwon into the mix, his teammates as a whole became much better. He elevated everyone's game.