If prime Robinson and prime Duncan switched era's

[wekko368]

But none of this changed the fact that these players could score without Hakeem, right?

They could score without Olajuwon, but Olajuwon made it much easier. That's why the Rockets used an inside-out system.

I've said this before.

Also, why are you brining teammates in play, they don’t matter! What’s wrong with you, Drexler scored all those points and had the success that he had because he decided to take over games, not because of his teammates. Are you nuts? Why would teammates matter all of a sudden?

Teammates dictate roles. Even was a solid team in Portland, Drexler was the top dog. That changed in Houston where he was able to defer to Olajuwon.

Also, wasn't it you who brought up the Portland squad?

Since when have I said they were right during their primes? But does it matter, them not even being in their primes was better than the Spurs role players who were in their primes. I would take a 95 Drexler over a 95 Elliott 100 out of a 100 times, and that is given that Elliott is my 3rd favourite Spur of all time, and that being the closest match-up. I would take a 95 Cassell over a 95 Avery Johnson 100 out of 100 times, and that is with Cassell being a starting instead of a backup point guard. I would take a 95 Horry over a 95 Rodman 100 out of 100 times. It’s not even up for debate.

Here's a question for you. Do you think that if the Spurs had Olajuwon (instead of Robinson) that series, they could've beaten a Robinson-led Rocket squad?

You saying that an inside-outside system was driven solely by the inside game? Keep on riding that one engine train of yours then. Because I am sure it’s called an inside-out system is called that because nobody can hit an outside shot.

A dominant post presence is the most integral part of the inside-out system. This is not an opinion. It's fact.

Do you want to look up how many minutes mings played?

Go ahead. You think Tabak played more minutes than mings?

You think so? You think a team with Drexler on it would win less than 20 games? What are you basing that on? What kind of post presence did the Spurs have? mings with a busted knee? Reid, who never was much of a presence his entire career? mings averagd 15ppg / 36 minutes that year, and Reid 13, Zan Tabak averaged 15 and Chucky Brown 11. That’s the “inside presence” you are talking about. You don’t even have a clue as to what you are talking about.

You can't use the "per 36" minute distinction on players who barely get any playing time. During the regular season, Tabak played on average less than 5 minutes a game, and normally during garbage time. Yet you think you can extrapolate those numbers into what his production would be if he played 36 minutes? Get real.

And btw, mings played about 17 mpg, so he was far more useful to the Spurs than Tabak was to the Rockets.

And why would a team having no post presence not win? According to you, a team with Steve Nash, Reggie Miller, Clyde Drexler, Dirk Nowitzki and Mehmet Okur, all in their primes would lose to a team headed by mings and Reid, because the first team “has no post presence”.

Dirk actually has a post game, and with Drexler, Miller, and Nash on the wings, Okur would move into the post. Even if its not his first choice, he'd still be effective.

Also, I was using the specific examples of the Rockets role players vs the Spurs role players. Quit twisting my words around.

I hope its not indicative of the Spurs board as a whole, but you and that "phenomanul" guy do tend to twist words. Its both immature and makes you look ignorant.

So? It would be helpful if the team with the higher rebounding total would win the games, but too bad they were counting the scores.

I was pointing out the error made by the other poster who said that Horry averaged more rebounds than Rodman.

Check game 5, the pivotal game where the Spurs lost by 21 points.

You know what the lesson here is? When you make an assertion, quantify it properly before you publicly state it.

You mean how you like watching people play in vacuums? What do you even mean by no help defense? Did Robinson get lots of help defense? What help defense are you talking about?

Even if you watch the highlight reels, you'll see that Robinson wasn't guarding Olajuwon 1on1 exclusively. There was help defense, but not all the time.

The original argument was that Rodman should have guarded Hakeem instead of Robinson, you went out and said that given Rodman was smaller and weaker (arguable) than Robinson, Hakeem would have dropped 60 on him.

Quote me where I said that Rodman was weaker than Robinson. I said Rodman was shorter and had less length. Those are FACTS.

The original argument never said Rodman should guard Hakeem with no help defense whatsoever.

Actually, it did. If you look at any of my posts regarding that, you'll see that I've quantified it by stating "no help defense".

Once again, go back and read my posts before you respond. Chances are, I've already answered your question.

But then, that argument somehow evaporated when it was shown that an even shorter Anthony Mason was the most effective player guarding Hakeem.

Anthony Mason and Dennis Rodman are about the same height, except Mason is MUCH stronger than Rodman and played very physical defense.

You can only argue that Hakeem with his supporting cast vastly outplayed Robinson with the Spurs supporting cast, you can’t go and say Hakeem is better than Robinson.

By your logic, no player is ever better than another player. By your logic, you can't say that Robinson is better than Tabak. You can only say that Tabak's team beat Robinson's team in a 7 game series.

Like I said before, if you go to any fan board outside of San Antonio and ask which center was better, the overwhelming answer will be Olajuwon.

But according to your logic on Robinson, if Hakeem can score 35ppg on 60% in that series, the Rockets win. The primary reason the Spurs lost is because Robinson was outplayed by Hakeem, by the same logic, the primary reason the Rockets lost in 96 to the Sonics was because Hakeem was outplayed by Shawn Kemp.

Being allowed to play illegal defense makes a big difference.

And btw, Kemp and Olajuwon don't play the same position, so its incorrect to say the one outplayed the other.

Why did the league not call it. You know what? I feel like saying the sole reason the Spurs lost was because the referees were shaving points. Better yet, there was a murder conspiracy, if Robinson actually shot a decent % in that series, NBA goons will murder his family and skin his dog.

Not sure why it wasn't called. Rockets fans and announcers were always griping about it.

Or even game to game by your logic. Hakeem played well in the 96 regular season, almost as well as in 95. He played well in the 1st round, so why did he suffer against the Sonics?

Oh, right, illegal defense. When it applies to Hakeem, it’s a reason, it’s an excuse for everyone else.

Stop being obtuse. If you can find the footage, you can see for yourself that the Sonic's played an illegal defense

It's just like the offensive fouls that Shaq always committed that never went called. Lakers fans say Sixers fan are just making excuses, but if you watch the footage, its there.

[wekko368]

Phenomanul, still waiting for your reply in regards to the importance of Curry and his team in the Loyola/Davidson game.

[Phenomanul]

Curry .

[Mel_13]

Not sure why it wasn't called. Rockets fans and announcers were always griping about it.

I know you weren't going for a laugh, but..

[The Franchise]

Nothing would change.

[polandprzem]

I remember once i had that argument with Dave being smashed by Hakeem and I provided simple math with 3 point % and acuracy and players % in a season and in teh playoffs in 94/95
Probably it was mentioned here in this thread. But damn the result was awesome. dave had argubly no help in the palyoffs.
And also I brought the fronliners to the table which dave was surrounded with.
Esp. when ppl were saying that Rodman was such a great help. Also I devided it to season and playoffs I think.

I think I got it somewhere...

[TDMVPDPOY]

question about rodman, why did his defense decline so much while at the spurs, but when he was with the pistons/bulls he was a totally different player....

[ambchang]

question about rodman, why did his defense decline so much while at the spurs, but when he was with the pistons/bulls he was a totally different player....

His defense never declined, he could still play defense if he wanted to, but he decided not to.

And to be honest, his defense was starting to crap out his last couple of seasons with the Pistons, and I theorized that he started to do that because he felt the team he was on was going no where.

There was of course the whole issue about him trying to get media attention and all that in a small market like San Antonio, as well as the personality of Robinson vs. one of Jordan.

[ambchang]

Appropriate defense? Back then, it was called "illegal defense".

Yes, playing illegal defense on Olajuwon was very effective.[/quote]

Why did the refs not call it? I remember the Sonics using something kind of like a zone, but they were always quick enough to recover without actually been called. It was controversial, but it was within the rules reflected by the refs not calling them.

I've consistently maintained that the 95 series would be determined by the the battle of the centers.

Both Olajuwon and Robinson had comparable regular season numbers. However, during the series, Olajuwon elevated his game whereas Robinson's numbers declined.

I've never deviated from that stance.

Why did Robinson’s number declined, while Hakeem’s ascended, have you ever thought about that? You think a player like Robinson just started to choke and not make shots, while a player like Hakeem felt going on fire and started to make shots? Watch the game again, and if you don’t get it, watch it again, and again, and again, and again, and see how the Spurs defense and Rockets defense are different. See how the supporting players actually make a difference

If you expect Olajuwon to have a monster game every single game of the series, you have higher expectations of him than I do.

Why would he have a monster series in one, and not in another? Why would he perform so well against one of the top defenders of all time, while having normal numbers vs. a team with a nobody in the middle?

Go look at the stat sheets. They'll tell you why Olajuwon was by far the superior player that series.

The stats told me Olajuwon performed better, but they don’t tell me why.

Yes, Olajuwon did have a very efficient game.

So Olajuwon got a free pass once again. Robinson shot 10-18 for 32 points in a game 2 loss, but no, that’s not enough because his team shot 4-18 from 3, it was his fault.

Unless that first round was played against the Spurs, your point is irrelevant.

Why is it? You are using your end result as the reason. You had no ability to see that basketball is a team game, and you refuse to admit that. Hakeem and Robinson’s performances in one single series has to be viewed in a vacuum, with no room for other input.
Hakeem played poorly against the Sonics, he got outplayed by Shawn Kemp. Shawn Kemp outplayed Hakeem Olajuwon.

Do you also expect the Sonics to play by the same rules as other teams?

Yes, they all play in the NBA.

They may have been considered equals until 94 when Olajuwon led a cast of above average role players to the le. After that, they were only considered equal by Spurs fans.

This is about the stupidest thing I have heard. Robinson and Hakeem was neck to neck up until the series in 95. Robinson finished 1st team all NBA in 95, all defense NBA in 95, both over Hakeem, do you know who vote for those? The media and coaches, not spurs fans.

I understand that basketball is a team game, but generally, the best teams have the best individual players. Look at the Bulls in the 90's. Aside from Jordan and Pippen, how many players on the 91-93 teams were also on the 96-98 teams?

Look at the Pistons team, Chauncey BIllups is better than Kobe Bryant and Shaquille O’Neal.
Look at the Celtics, Paul Pierce is better than Kobe Bryant.
Look at the Spurs and Lakers. Shaq is better than Duncan in 00-02, but Duncan is better than Shaq in 99 and 03, they just decide to swap places one over another.
Look at the early Bulls teams, Isiah was better than Jordan.

You've been making this "single coverage claim for a while". I know its not the best sample size, but on the highlight reels of that series, it shows Olajuwon scoring points against double and triple teams.

Those were some great highlights, so?

No, actually you don't. Not at all. If that were the case, there would never be any open 3 point shooters.

That may be one of the most ignorant things I've ever read.

Of course with your vastly superior comprehension skills, you didn’t read the part where I said teams would usually let shooters shoot to see if they can nail their shots first, and then close in when they prove they could make it.

You also, with you logic skills, fail to understand that there are defensive breakdowns and such. This is not a black and white situation, you make a call on every single play.

[wekko368]

Why did the refs not call it? I remember the Sonics using something kind of like a zone, but they were always quick enough to recover without actually been called.

Ref's aren't perfect, and zone was illegal back then.

It was controversial, but it was within the rules reflected by the refs not calling them.

By your logic, this is legal footwork since the refs didn't call him for traveling:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D9Z1wAwQtM

Why did Robinson’s number declined, while Hakeem’s ascended, have you ever thought about that? You think a player like Robinson just started to choke and not make shots, while a player like Hakeem felt going on fire and started to make shots?

I felt like Robinson had a very subpar post game and either drove to the basket or shot the jumper. To be honest, I viewed his game as a faster, more athletic version of Ewing's.

On the other hand, Olajuwon had a refined post game, which made it much easier for him to score.

Watch the game again, and if you don’t get it, watch it again, and again, and again, and again, and see how the Spurs defense and Rockets defense are different. See how the supporting players actually make a difference

No need; I've known it for many years now.

Why would he have a monster series in one, and not in another? Why would he perform so well against one of the top defenders of all time, while having normal numbers vs. a team with a nobody in the middle?

Which opponents/years are you talking about?

So Olajuwon got a free pass once again. Robinson shot 10-18 for 32 points in a game 2 loss, but no, that’s not enough because his team shot 4-18 from 3, it was his fault.

What about Game 1? Robinson shot an abysmal 5-17 (29.4%) while Del Negro, Johnson, and Elliott shot a combined 21-37 (56.8%).

Why is it? You are using your end result as the reason. You had no ability to see that basketball is a team game, and you refuse to admit that.

Basketball is more about matchups than it is about being a team game. That's why when we're talking specifically about Olajuwon & Robinson, it becomes irrelevant refer to other players in other series.

Hakeem and Robinson’s performances in one single series has to be viewed in a vacuum, with no room for other input.
Hakeem played poorly against the Sonics, he got outplayed by Shawn Kemp. Shawn Kemp outplayed Hakeem Olajuwon.

I've already addressed this; If you want to read my answer, refer to a few of my earlier posts.

Yes, they all play in the NBA.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were so naive. I hate to break it to you, but violation's aren't always called the same way.

This is about the stupidest thing I have heard. Robinson and Hakeem was neck to neck up until the series in 95. Robinson finished 1st team all NBA in 95, all defense NBA in 95, both over Hakeem, do you know who vote for those? The media and coaches, not spurs fans.

I suspect that has more to do with the fact that the Spurs had the best record in the league. That's why he won the MVP. He was the best team's best player.

Look at the Pistons team, Chauncey BIllups is better than Kobe Bryant and Shaquille O’Neal.
Look at the Celtics, Paul Pierce is better than Kobe Bryant.
Kevin Garnett was the best player in that series.
Look at the Spurs and Lakers. Shaq is better than Duncan in 00-02, but Duncan is better than Shaq in 99 and 03, they just decide to swap places one over another.
Look at the early Bulls teams, Isiah was better than Jordan.

Looks like I should rephrase. The best teams have the best star power.

Billups, R.Wallace, B.Wallace, Hamilton, Prince > O'Neal, Bryant
Pierce, Garnett, Allen > Bryant, Gasol
Thomas, Dumars, Rodman > Jordan, young Pippen

Those were some great highlights, so?

They disprove your theory that Olajuwon was always single-covered.

Of course with your vastly superior comprehension skills, you didn’t read the part where I said teams would usually let shooters shoot to see if they can nail their shots first, and then close in when they prove they could make it.

When defenders let the shooters shoot, why do you think the shooters are open? In the Rockets' case, it's because Olajuwon would receive extra defensive attention which would open up looks for his teammates.

You also, with you logic skills, fail to understand that there are defensive breakdowns and such. This is not a black and white situation, you make a call on every single play.

You're the one saying that Olajuwon was single-teamed. If that's the case, the Rockets' perimeter players would never be open.

[Mel_13]

Looks like I should rephrase. The best teams have the best star power.

Billups, R.Wallace, B.Wallace, Hamilton, Prince > O'Neal, Bryant
Pierce, Garnett, Allen > Bryant, Gasol
Thomas, Dumars, Rodman > Jordan, young Pippen

Olajuwon, Drexler > Robinson

[ambchang]

Ref's aren't perfect, and zone was illegal back then.

By your logic, this is legal footwork since the refs didn't call him for traveling:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D9Z1wAwQtM

Did this person do it for the whole series, four games in a row? You are again mixing individual play with team play. In your case, the refs didn’t miss one or two calls, they are missing on every single time the Sonics did it.

I felt like Robinson had a very subpar post game and either drove to the basket or shot the jumper. To be honest, I viewed his game as a faster, more athletic version of Ewing's.

On the other hand, Olajuwon had a refined post game, which made it much easier for him to score.

Why did this not stop Robinson from scoring against the Lakers? Or in the regular season?

No need; I've known it for many years now.

Was that from your memory, or from the tape you once owned?

[QUOTE=wekko368;3695278]Which opponents/years are you talking about?
The Lakers in 90, the Sonics in 96 … oh yes, he wasn’t that great in the 90s, and it was illegal defense. See, when Hakeem underperformed, it was illegal defense, but when Robinson does it, it’s because he choked and underperformed in the playoffs. See Hakeem’s performance depends on defense, but Robinson’s doesn’t.

What about Game 1? Robinson shot an abysmal 5-17 (29.4%) while Del Negro, Johnson, and Elliott shot a combined 21-37 (56.8%).

What about it? The one where Robinson was double and tripled, and Elliott choked two game winning FTs? Is that the one you are talking about?

Basketball is more about matchups than it is about being a team game. That's why when we're talking specifically about Olajuwon & Robinson, it becomes irrelevant refer to other players in other series.

Matchups IS part of team play.
Shawn Kemp > Olajuwon. Other factors are irrelevant.

I've already addressed this; If you want to read my answer, refer to a few of my earlier posts.

Yes, Hakeem underperforming is because the big bad NBA boogieman is out to get him. They love Shawn Kemp and Gary Payton and hates Hakeem. It’s a wonder Hakeem actually broke down that machine for two years in a row

I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were so naive. I hate to break it to you, but violation's aren't always called the same way.

Yes, the NBA is out to get Hakeem.
I am changing my stance now, Robinson was fouled without being called throughout his career. He could have averaged 55ppg, 45 rpg, 12 blks, 15 assts, 10 stls, with no fouls and TOs a game, win 14 straight NBA championships, but the big mean NBA decided to hold him down.
In fact, Robinson should have outscored and outperformed Hakeem in the 95 playoffs, it was because the refs were not calling all the illegal things Houston was doing. I am not going to be the NBAs friend, because he is too mean!

I suspect that has more to do with the fact that the Spurs had the best record in the league. That's why he won the MVP. He was the best team's best player.

You suspect? Didn’t stop Hakeem from winning the MVP in 94. Why didn’t Kemp win the MVP in 94? He was the best player on the best team. Bad mean NBA was holding down Kemp, they didn’t play by the rules I tells ya. Oh wait, that would contradict with the 96 series, scratch that. The NBA wanted Hakeem to win the MVP in 94, because they felt guilty in taking too many games from them.

Looks like I should rephrase. The best teams have the best star power.

Billups, R.Wallace, B.Wallace, Hamilton, Prince > O'Neal, Bryant
Pierce, Garnett, Allen > Bryant, Gasol
Thomas, Dumars, Rodman > Jordan, young Pippen

Which planet do you come from? The Detroit 4 has more star power than O’Neal and Bryant. Do you want to check what the jersey sales #s are? Thomas, Dumars and Rodman has more start power than Jordan? You do realize how Jordan took the whole NBA to the masses in the late 80s, right?

And how in the world would star power translate to wins? I am having major trouble figuring that out.

They disprove your theory that Olajuwon was always single-covered.

That Hakeem was ALWAYS single-covered? Must you be so absolute? How about the Spurs game plan was to single cover Hakeem and let the supporting players beat them, and they failed to cover either because that team was made up of mostly horrible defenders.

I am looking for where I said Hakeem was ALWAYS single-covered, and Robinson was ALWAYS doubled and tripled. Because I found a few highlights in the series of Robinson dunking with no one around him, he must have missed all those wide open dunks with no one guarding him the whole series.

When defenders let the shooters shoot, why do you think the shooters are open? In the Rockets' case, it's because Olajuwon would receive extra defensive attention which would open up looks for his teammates.

Of course, is there something wrong with this?

You're the one saying that Olajuwon was single-teamed. If that's the case, the Rockets' perimeter players would never be open.

And of course, the Spurs players would have to have their left middle toe amputated if they were ever found caught off position, helped out on drives from Drexler, Elie, or Horry. If they were ever caught helping out on Hakeem, they would have to have their eyeballs replaced by meatballs without the of anesthetics.

[wekko368]

Did this person do it for the whole series, four games in a row? You are again mixing individual play with team play. In your case, the refs didn’t miss one or two calls, they are missing on every single time the Sonics did it.

You said that since the refs didn't call the infraction, there must not have been an infraction. I was just showing you that clip to point out your mistake.

And yes, its possible that the refs missed the great majority of the calls. Don't forget that in the early 2000's, Shaq's trademark move was lowering his shoulder and ramming it into the chest of his defender to create space. That should've been an offensive foul every time, but it simply wasn't called.

Why did this not stop Robinson from scoring against the Lakers? Or in the regular season?

The Laker's didnt' have Hakeem Olajuwon, and during the regular season, Robinson was usually the best player on the floor.

The Lakers in 90, the Sonics in 96 … oh yes, he wasn’t that great in the 90s, and it was illegal defense. See, when Hakeem underperformed, it was illegal defense, but when Robinson does it, it’s because he choked and underperformed in the playoffs. See Hakeem’s performance depends on defense, but Robinson’s doesn’t.

I've already addressed this. The 95 version of Olajuwon was far superior than the 90 version. And yes, the Sonics did commit illegal defenses that went uncalled.

What about it? The one where Robinson was double and tripled, and Elliott choked two game winning FTs? Is that the one you are talking about?

What do you mean "what about it"? It seems like whenever you make a contention and I bring up a game that proves you wrong, you act like you never made the initial point.

All this time, you've been harping on the idea that Robinson's productivity is proportional to his team's. If his supporting cast does well, then he does well.

However, the opposite happened in Game 1. His shooters shot well, and Robinson shot terribly.

I'm sorry you can't accept that Olajuwon was a better player than Robinson. It's not a slight on Robinson; he was a great center, but during the mid 90's, there was no center who had ever peaked higher.

The sad thing is that even though you can't accept it, you know its true. That's why you keep regurgitating the same arguments over and over despite the fact that they have been either countered, answered, or are entirely irrelevant.

I'm glad you're such a die-hard fan of the Spurs. It's always good to be loyal to your team, but in doing so, you've lost your objectivity. That's why you lose arguments. You're letting your arguments be fueled with your bias towards the Spurs whereas I use facts and statistics to support my contentions.

And because you let your passion dictate your words, you appear foolish. For instance, you gauged a player's star power on his jersey sales. A player's effectiveness is not measured through jersey sales. It's measured by what he does on the court.

I'm not going to respond to the rest of your post b/c for the most part, you've become ridiculously obtuse. But in the event that you do come up with and original argument, feel free to address them to me. Let me emphasize original though. It's rather annoying answering the same questions over and over.

[ambchang]

They could score without Olajuwon, but Olajuwon made it much easier. That's why the Rockets used an inside-out system.

I've said this before.

That’s not what you said:

It depends on the presence of Olajuwon. Without him, the Rockets' supporting cast was barely better than Robinson's.

However, if you include Olajuwon into the mix, his teammates as a whole became much better. He elevated everyone's game.

Robinson’s supporting casts has proven to be trash without him. Except Elliott.

Teammates dictate roles. Even was a solid team in Portland, Drexler was the top dog. That changed in Houston where he was able to defer to Olajuwon.

And that someone would mean that Drexler, without Olajuwon, would be barely better than Elliott, would managed to score a whopping 12 ppg in Detroit without Robinson?

[QUOTE=wekko368;3694216]Also, wasn't it you who brought up the Portland squad?

I brought up the squad doing very well with Drexler as the lead because to me, teammates matter. Teammates don’t matter to you, and YOU brought up Drexler’s supporting cast in explaining why that team was successful.

Here's a question for you. Do you think that if the Spurs had Olajuwon (instead of Robinson) that series, they could've beaten a Robinson-led Rocket squad?

No, because it was shown that Olajuwon without 3 pt shooters would be kicked out of the 1st round. It was also shown that if Olajuwon has an opposition that could match his team’s 3 pt shooting, he’d loose (Sonics, Games 3 and 4 of the 95 series).

A dominant post presence is the most integral part of the inside-out system. This is not an opinion. It's fact.

It’s one of the parts, right? You can’t have an inside-out system without a bunch of 3 pt shooters, right?
Of course Hakeem was important, he was the whole center of the Rockets offensive and defensive philosophy.

Go ahead. You think Tabak played more minutes than mings?

I didn’t, when did I say that

You can't use the "per 36" minute distinction on players who barely get any playing time. During the regular season, Tabak played on average less than 5 minutes a game, and normally during garbage time. Yet you think you can extrapolate those numbers into what his production would be if he played 36 minutes? Get real.

And btw, mings played about 17 mpg, so he was far more useful to the Spurs than Tabak was to the Rockets.

You mean the 6.3 mpg he averaged in the Rockets series, right? He was so fantastic in the 17mpg in the regular season, he scored 8 ppg. The point isn’t even to compare the two, it’s to mock your original assertion that Terry mings (95 version) and JR Reid were such amazing low post threats that they could pose as a threat if Robinson didn’t play for the Spurs.

Dirk actually has a post game, and with Drexler, Miller, and Nash on the wings, Okur would move into the post. Even if its not his first choice, he'd still be effective.

Chucky Brown has a post game, so what? He just suck as it, as much as mings and Reid sucked.

Also, I was using the specific examples of the Rockets role players vs the Spurs role players. Quit twisting my words around.

I hope its not indicative of the Spurs board as a whole, but you and that "phenomanul" guy do tend to twist words. Its both immature and makes you look ignorant.

Yeah, mings and Reid, one who was seriously injured a few years back and was never the same again, and the other one of the worse busts in the late 80s.

In other news, you have never twisted words, like how Hakeem was ALWAYS single teamed.
Like me using an example of how much Avery Johnson sucked with outside shooting would turn into you saying that I said Avery Johnson was clutch. You are indeed the model of maturity or knowledge.

I was pointing out the error made by the other poster who said that Horry averaged more rebounds than Rodman.

That other poster was me, and it wasn’t an error. It never said AVERAGED, Mr. never twist words in his life and Mr. Comprehension.

You know what the lesson here is? When you make an assertion, quantify it properly before you publicly state it.

What lesson? Did I EVER say Horry AVERAGED more rebounds than Rodman, read the original post.
The lesson here is actually to read something else’s post before acting like a smartass and embarrassing yourself over and over again.

Here’s the original quote, Posting 101 Professor.

Like how he got outrebounded by Robert Horry even though that was the only thing Rodman was doing?

Even if you watch the highlight reels, you'll see that Robinson wasn't guarding Olajuwon 1on1 exclusively. There was help defense, but not all the time.

Did I say all the time? Of course it wasn’t exclusively. Where are these words coming from?

Quote me where I said that Rodman was weaker than Robinson. I said Rodman was shorter and had less length. Those are FACTS.

Sorry, I read strength.

Actually, it did. If you look at any of my posts regarding that, you'll see that I've quantified it by stating "no help defense".

So why would that be a bad move for the Spurs to begin with. The original poster was saying that the Spurs should have put Rodman on Hakeem, and let Robinson roam. Why was there no help defense if Rodman was the sole defender? Do you mean Robinson was playing Hakeem with no help defense thus making this comparison meaningful?

Once again, go back and read my posts before you respond. Chances are, I've already answered your question.

The original argument wasn’t made by you, it was made by a Spurs fan. He NEVER, EVER said single covering Hakeem with Rodman with no help defense. If you had to quantify that way, it would render your argument moot.

Anthony Mason and Dennis Rodman are about the same height, except Mason is MUCH stronger than Rodman and played very physical defense.

Rodman played very physical defense. Rodman claimed to have bench pressed 405 lbs, I can’t see how Mason could be MUCH stronger than Rodman.

By your logic, no player is ever better than another player. By your logic, you can't say that Robinson is better than Tabak. You can only say that Tabak's team beat Robinson's team in a 7 game series.

I am interested in seeing how you deducted that with my logic. If anything, I am trying to say that Robinson is not vastly inferior to Hakeem, at the very least not as much as the 95 series looked on surface.

Like I said before, if you go to any fan board outside of San Antonio and ask which center was better, the overwhelming answer will be Olajuwon.

So? Robinson won MVP in 95, so he must have been better than Olajuwon. That is the answer from the majority of press writers.

Being allowed to play illegal defense makes a big difference.

And btw, Kemp and Olajuwon don't play the same position, so its incorrect to say the one outplayed the other.

Right, I should have said Ervin Johnson destroyed Hakeem on defense.

Not sure why it wasn't called. Rockets fans and announcers were always griping about it.

Rockets fans and announcers must be the beacon of fair opinions.

Stop being obtuse. If you can find the footage, you can see for yourself that the Sonic's played an illegal defense

Do you happen to have a copy you lost after your brother lent it to someone else? I want a copy too.

It's just like the offensive fouls that Shaq always committed that never went called. Lakers fans say Sixers fan are just making excuses, but if you watch the footage, its there.

Hakeem never gained any unfair advantage for playing outside of the rules.

[wekko368]

That other poster was me, and it wasn’t an error. It never said AVERAGED, Mr. never twist words in his life and Mr. Comprehension.

What lesson? Did I EVER say Horry AVERAGED more rebounds than Rodman, read the original post.

The lesson here is actually to read something else’s post before acting like a smartass and embarrassing yourself over and over again.

Here’s the original quote, Posting 101 Professor.

Like how he got outrebounded by Robert Horry even though that was the only thing Rodman was doing?

You said that Horry had more rebounds than Rodman. They both played 6 games that series. That means, based on your words, Horry must have had a higher RPG average than Rodman.

That's elementary school math...

Maybe you should adhere to your own lessons.

[kingmalaki]

Luck_The_Fakers_
I feel like we are going around in circles, so I'll only response toLuck_The_Fakers_something that we haven't really covered/debated.
Luck_The_Fakers_

Why did Robinson's number declined, while Hakeem's ascended, have youLuck_The_Fakers_ever thought about that? Luck_The_Fakers_You think a player like Robinson justLuck_The_Fakers_started to choke and not make shots, while a player like Hakeem feltLuck_The_Fakers_going on fire and started to make shots? Luck_The_Fakers_Watch the game again, andLuck_The_Fakers_if you don't get it, watch it again, and again, and again, and again,Luck_The_Fakers_and see how the Spurs defense and Rockets defense are different. Luck_The_Fakers_SeeLuck_The_Fakers_how the supporting players actually make a difference

Luck_The_Fakers_
Actually, that's exactly what I think (the bodled part). Luck_The_Fakers_I thinkLuck_The_Fakers_players can underperform, and they can exceed what they normally give onLuck_The_Fakers_occassions. Luck_The_Fakers_It's called elevating your game. Luck_The_Fakers_Are you saying playersLuck_The_Fakers_can't elevate their games, or underperform (i.e. choke)?
Luck_The_Fakers_
I don't think Robinson decided to start missing shots, but I do think heLuck_The_Fakers_was matched up with a center that was at the least, just as good as himLuck_The_Fakers_on both sides of the ball. Luck_The_Fakers_It's well known that Robinson didn't reallyLuck_The_Fakers_have a refined low-post game, so I'm not shocked that he would have aLuck_The_Fakers_harder time scoring against a traditional big than Hakeem had. Luck_The_Fakers_There isLuck_The_Fakers_a big difference between using your speed and athleticism to score yourLuck_The_Fakers_points and using a refined post game. Luck_The_Fakers_Once you match up against a dudeLuck_The_Fakers_who can keep up with you physically, then you need to turn to somethingLuck_The_Fakers_else (Dwight Howard in the finals or in past playoff rounds is a perfectLuck_The_Fakers_example...this is why everyone says he needs to develop a low-postLuck_The_Fakers_game). Luck_The_Fakers_In comparison, Hakeem had one of the best low-post games andLuck_The_Fakers_some of the best footwork that we have ever seen. Luck_The_Fakers_I'm not suprised that
he was able to still score, and considering the difference between hisLuck_The_Fakers_personality and David's, I'm not suprised that he took the matchup moreLuck_The_Fakers_personal and upped his level of play.
Luck_The_Fakers_
And again, we aren't going to agree on the defenses shown to eachLuck_The_Fakers_player. Luck_The_Fakers_We obviously see different things when we watch the games. Luck_The_Fakers_ButLuck_The_Fakers_it's apparent that we won't agree on this matter, so can we just stopLuck_The_Fakers_mentioning it?
Luck_The_Fakers_

Why would he have a monster series in one, and not in another? Luck_The_Fakers_Why
would he perform so well against one of the top defenders of all time,
while having normal numbers vs. a team with a nobody in the
middle?

Luck_The_Fakers_
This question has already been answered for you. Luck_The_Fakers_Hakeem struggled
against the defense that Seattle played (technically a zone, but for
whatever reason he struggled against it). Luck_The_Fakers_We are blaming him for HIS
decrease in production, not his teammates. Luck_The_Fakers_He also struggled
against Mark Eaton. Luck_The_Fakers_Some players do great against some, and some dudes
just have their number. Luck_The_Fakers_Could it be possible that Mark Eaton or the
Sonics scheme just had his number, as opposed to your theory that he
only struggled (individually) because of his teammates?
Luck_The_Fakers_

This is about the stupidest thing I have heard. Luck_The_Fakers_Robinson and Hakeem was
neck to neck up until the series in 95. Luck_The_Fakers_Robinson finished 1st team all
NBA in 95, all defense NBA in 95, both over Hakeem, do you know who vote
for those? Luck_The_Fakers_The media and coaches, not spurs fans.

Luck_The_Fakers_
Hakeem and Robinson were neck to neck before their playoff series. Luck_The_Fakers_It's
similar to how MJ and Drexler were considered "close" until the 92
Finals, when MJ was the dominant player of the series. Luck_The_Fakers_Do you agree or
disagree that how guys fare against each other in a playoff series, for
a chance for the ring, is more indicative of where they stand as
compared to how they fare in the regualr season when they hardly go
head-up? Luck_The_Fakers_The playoffs are where you make your fame, right?
Luck_The_Fakers_

Which planet do you come from? The Detroit 4 has more star power than
O'Neal and Bryant. Do you want to check what the jersey sales #s are?
Thomas, Dumars and Rodman has more start power than Jordan? You do
realize how Jordan took the whole NBA to the masses in the late 80s,
right?
Luck_The_Fakers_
And how in the world would star power translate to wins? I am having
major trouble figuring that out.

Luck_The_Fakers_
I believe he means star player, as far as the strength of the players,
not how popular he player is. Luck_The_Fakers_It's evident from his examples. Luck_The_Fakers_The 04
Pistons didn't have a weakness in their starting five, and they had a
bench. Luck_The_Fakers_In comparison, the Lakers had a gimpy Malone, one of their stars
had a garbage series (Kobe) and the other wasn't playing any defense
(Shaq). Luck_The_Fakers_Both Bryant and Gasol didn't play well int he 08 Finals. Luck_The_Fakers_In
comparison, the Celtics big 3 all showed up, and so did their bench. Luck_The_Fakers_As
far as the Bulls go, they won once their supporting cast finally "gotLuck_The_Fakers_it".

[ambchang]

You said that Horry had more rebounds than Rodman. They both played 6 games that series. That means, based on your words, Horry must have had a higher RPG average than Rodman.

That's elementary school math...

Maybe you should adhere to your own lessons.

Horry DID have more Rebounds than Rodman. I NEVER quantified the duration where they played. How in the world can you interpret me saying Horry had more rebounds than Rodman meant that I said Horry had more rebounds than Rodman throughout the whole series.

13>12, my 3 year old nephew can tell me that.

[ambchang]

You said that since the refs didn't call the infraction, there must not have been an infraction. I was just showing you that clip to point out your mistake.

What mistake? Technically, there wasn’t a turnover, it never showed up on the scoreboard, it was perfectly legal because the player got away with it. But you are saying that the refs are letting the Sonics off consistently, all series long, resulting in a 4-0 sweep with Hakeem averaging 18.5ppg.

And yes, its possible that the refs missed the great majority of the calls. Don't forget that in the early 2000's, Shaq's trademark move was lowering his shoulder and ramming it into the chest of his defender to create space. That should've been an offensive foul every time, but it simply wasn't called.

No it’s not an offensive foul, it never was called. It was shown that it was a legal move. Watch the tape.
But wait, why would you care? You are never the person who would take external context. Why does it matter all of a sudden? You are the person who consistently said that Hakeem > Robinson based on their head to head performance in one single series, all supporting cast and situation be damned. Why would refs come into account all of a sudden?

The Laker's didnt' have Hakeem Olajuwon, and during the regular season, Robinson was usually the best player on the floor.

So Ervin Johnson destroyed Hakeem on defense.

Hakeem was usually the best player on the floor during the regular season, and he didn’t pull through vs. the Sonics.

Pick a lane, which one is it? Superstars are expected to function in a vacuum, and does not get affected by the defense, or they get affected by their teammates, and the defense the opposition plays. I don’t understand how Hakeem could be given a free pass vs. the Sonics, while Robinson is getting blamed.

I've already addressed this. The 95 version of Olajuwon was far superior than the 90 version. And yes, the Sonics did commit illegal defenses that went uncalled.

Yes, you came up with excuses that are absolutely contrary to the standards you used for Robinson in the 95 series. And no, Hakeem wasn’t far superior in 95 than he was in 90, he had a better team around him. He averaged 4 more ppg in the regular season, and had less rebound and blocks. At most, he was slightly better.

What do you mean "what about it"? It seems like whenever you make a contention and I bring up a game that proves you wrong, you act like you never made the initial point.

All this time, you've been harping on the idea that Robinson's productivity is proportional to his team's. If his supporting cast does well, then he does well.

However, the opposite happened in Game 1. His shooters shot well, and Robinson shot terribly.

I'm sorry you can't accept that Olajuwon was a better player than Robinson. It's not a slight on Robinson; he was a great center, but during the mid 90's, there was no center who had ever peaked higher.

Shot well? The Spurs shot 2 for 8 from 3. My point was that when the Spurs shot well from 3, it opens up the lane for Robinson, which is the exact same point about Hakeem. If his shooters shoot well, it opens up the lane for him. I don’t know which century of basketball you are watching, 2 for 8 maybe shooting well in the mid 80s, not in the 90’s, when the Rocket revolutionized the inside-out game.

The sad thing is that even though you can't accept it, you know its true. That's why you keep regurgitating the same arguments over and over despite the fact that they have been either countered, answered, or are entirely irrelevant.

LOL, you countered by citing Hakeem was stopped by referees not calling illegal defense throughout an entire series. It is about as much a homer rant as anyone can get. You constantly switch back and forth between the importance of teammates and external cir stances. In one instant, you disregard everything that happens around the superstars, in another, you count external factors. You used a 2-8 3 point shooting as some kind of evidence that the Spurs shot well from the outside to open up the lanes. 2-8, that’s 25%. The only game in the series where the Rockets shot this poorly (with a lower % and a higher 3PM and 3PA), they lost by 22 points with Hakeem shooting 9-24. The number proved every single one of my points.

I'm glad you're such a die-hard fan of the Spurs. It's always good to be loyal to your team, but in doing so, you've lost your objectivity. That's why you lose arguments. You're letting your arguments be fueled with your bias towards the Spurs whereas I use facts and statistics to support my contentions.

Such as drawing illegal defense and citing Houston fan and announcer as some kind of support?

Such as refusing to admit that an inside-out offense contains an out aspect?

Such as thinking that defensive strategies and teammate performance has no effect on a superstar?

I hate to bring this up, because I have used this quote before, but your Rocket fans are such a ridiculous ignorant bunch that I have bring this up. I can’t believe I can have more knowledge about how your offense works than you do,

http://www.nba.com/history/finals/19941995.html

Yes, I agree, but I think it was because of this team, the style of play. We're playing team basketball, aggressive defense, hitting more outside shots which opened the floor and gave me more room to operate inside. And also, we played with more experience after what we had done last year.

I didn’t say it, HAKEEM OLAJUWON HIMSELF SAID IT IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE SERIES. The outside shooters opened up the defense for him to operate. I appear foolish? How about you, a supposed fan of the Rockets, not knowing a damn thing about how your supposedly favourite team won the le?

You continuously ignored facts and statistics, have absolutely no answer to why Robinson shot well in games the Spurs shot well from outside. Have not answer as to why Hakeem shot well in games the Rockets shot well from outside. You didn’t even know how well Hakeem played in the early 90s, and had this magical, unexplained ascension in his skills in the mid 90s, with absolutely NO regard of his teammates. You should be ashamed to call yourself a Rockets fan, you don’t deserve to be called a fan of a team that revolutionized the inside-outside offense for the late 90s and 00’s.

And because you let your passion dictate your words, you appear foolish. For instance, you gauged a player's star power on his jersey sales. A player's effectiveness is not measured through jersey sales. It's measured by what he does on the court.

Do you even know what star power means? Star power means how popular a certain player is for the fans, not how he does on the court. How he does on the court are called skills.

I'm not going to respond to the rest of your post b/c for the most part, you've become ridiculously obtuse. But in the event that you do come up with and original argument, feel free to address them to me. Let me emphasize original though. It's rather annoying answering the same questions over and over.

As opposed to reading about illegal defense 5 times in the same post? You are a hypocrite in that you continuously accuse others of being annoying in the exact same things you do.

You stress comprehension, and you have shown, multiple times in this thread, that you don’t read other people’s posts closely. I personally have no issues with it, since the best of us misread once in a while, but at least hold up to your own high standards.

You accuse others of twisting your words, and there are a few instances that you did exactly the same.

You talk about me repeating my points, while you did it more than anyone else in this thread.

Here’s an original point for you, inside-out offense includes both inside and outside. Got it?

[polandprzem]

luck the fakers

[polandprzem]

btw. wasn't it Chicago Bulls on Jax command that used illegal defense more then others?

Every time a ref. whistled that cameras was on Jax

[ambchang]

I feel like we are going around in circles, so I'll only response to something that we haven't really covered/debated.



Actually, that's exactly what I think (the bodled part). I think players can underperform, and they can exceed what they normally give on occassions. It's called elevating your game. Are you saying players can't elevate their games, or underperform (i.e. choke)?

Players certainly can elevate their game, and they can certainly choke, Mailman choked on FTs against the Bulls, Del Negro choked on wide open shots in the 95 series, Elliott choked on game winning FTs in Game 1 of the 95 series. But Robinson was not a good indicator. FYI, I didn’t think Nowitzki choked in the 07 series against GS, the whole GS defense was geared towards him, and his teammates sucked in that series.
And again, we aren't going to agree on the defenses shown to each player. We obviously see different things when we watch the games. But it's apparent that we won't agree on this matter, so can we just stop mentioning it?

I don't think Robinson decided to start missing shots, but I do think he was matched up with a center that was at the least, just as good as him on both sides of the ball. It's well known that Robinson didn't really have a refined low-post game, so I'm not shocked that he would have a harder time scoring against a traditional big than Hakeem had. There is a big difference between using your speed and athleticism to score your points and using a refined post game. Once you match up against a dude who can keep up with you physically, then you need to turn to something else (Dwight Howard in the finals or in past playoff rounds is a perfect example...this is why everyone says he needs to develop a low-post game). In comparison, Hakeem had one of the best low-post games and some of the best footwork that we have ever seen. I'm not suprised that
he was able to still score, and considering the difference between his personality and David's, I'm not suprised that he took the matchup more personal and upped his level of play.

Robinson didn’t have that much trouble scoring against Hakeem in the regular season, nor did he have too much trouble whenever the Spurs were nailing 3 pters in the exact same series. It really isn’t a coincidence.

This question has already been answered for you. Hakeem struggled against the defense that Seattle played (technically a zone, but for whatever reason he struggled against it). We are blaming him for HIS decrease in production, not his teammates. He also struggled against Mark Eaton. Some players do great against some, and some dudes just have their number. Could it be possible that Mark Eaton or the Sonics scheme just had his number, as opposed to your theory that he only struggled (individually) because of his teammates?

So you are saying that defenses do matter against a player. I am fine with that. In fact, that was the whole point from the get go. I don’t have a problem saying Robinson struggled against double and triple teams. I said that from the beginning. I did say, however that the Spurs lost because his teammates were not able to hit wide open shots even when Robinson was doubled and tripled.

Hakeem and Robinson were neck to neck before their playoff series. It's similar to how MJ and Drexler were considered "close" until the 92Finals, when MJ was the dominant player of the series. Do you agree or disagree that how guys fare against each other in a playoff series, for a chance for the ring, is more indicative of where they stand as compared to how they fare in the regualr season when they hardly go head-up? The playoffs are where you make your fame, right?

Drexler was never close to MJ the way Robinson was to Hakeem. For starters, Drexler never won the MVP over Jordan, he made the dream team as one of the last two players after his spectacular play in 92.
I do not agree playoffs makes or breaks for a player. I never agreed that the number of rings is the sole indicator of player A over player B. The regular season actually provides a better look at how teams are able to perform under a certain consistent environment. The playoffs have much more preparation and variation in terms of game to game philosophies. It’s more to do with teamplay and the coach, and not individual play.

I believe he means star player, as far as the strength of the players, not how popular he player is. It's evident from his examples. The 04 Pistons didn't have a weakness in their starting five, and they had a bench. In comparison, the Lakers had a gimpy Malone, one of their stars had a garbage series (Kobe) and the other wasn't playing any defense (Shaq). Both Bryant and Gasol didn't play well int he 08 Finals. In comparison, the Celtics big 3 all showed up, and so did their bench. As far as the Bulls go, they won once their supporting cast finally "got it".

I took star power as star power, I don’t take star power as strength of players. The examples are evident that he didn’t know what he was talking about. Malone was fine in Game 1, the Pistons still won. Kobe had a garbage series because the Pistons defense were daring him to take over the game. He took the bait and lost the series. Shaq has never played any defense on mobile big man, he can’t. To say that Shaq, Kobe, Malone and Payton have less star power than BIllups, Hamilton, Prince and the Wallaces is beyond stupid. You can say that the Lakers have less coherence than the Pistons, but that speaks directly to team play, which supports my point, teams win playoff games, not individual.

The Bulls example runs directly opposite to the Pistons/Lakers example you just pulled up. The Pistons had Dumars, Thomas, Rodman, Laimbeer, and a solid bench, they got waxed by the Bulls because the Bulls learned to play as a team.

Finally, Bryant and Gasol didn’t play well against the Celtics because the Celtics had a great gameplan in shutting both of them down. And I am fine with that, it wasn’t because either of them choked, it was because the Celtics had a great game plan geared towards the two, much like what the Rockets did to Robinson in 95.

[wekko368]

What mistake? Technically, there wasn’t a turnover, it never showed up on the scoreboard, it was perfectly legal because the player got away with it.

Your logic is so terribly flawed that I don't know where to begin. Let's start with a hypothetical situation.

Let's say a pedestrian is walking on the sidewalk. A drunk driver swerves off the road, hits him, and drives off. There are witnesses, but none of them remember the license plate or description of the car. As a result, the police have no leads and are unable to arrest anyone.

Based on your logic, no crime has been committed.

No offense, but I'm not going to waste anymore time with you. I'll just say that we're on different mental planes and leave it at that.

[ambchang]

Your logic is so terribly flawed that I don't know where to begin. Let's start with a hypothetical situation.

Let's say a pedestrian is walking on the sidewalk. A drunk driver swerves off the road, hits him, and drives off. There are witnesses, but none of them remember the license plate or description of the car. As a result, the police have no leads and are unable to arrest anyone.

Based on your logic, no crime has been committed.

No offense, but I'm not going to waste anymore time with you. I'll just say that we're on different mental planes and leave it at that.

OTOH, your logic is absolutely astounding. Only you, and you only in this world, can somehow parallel a basketball playoff series to a drunk driving incident.

We all know you are being ploughed to the ground in this debate, but I am not drunk, and there are plenty of witnesses to see how you have failed miserably over and over and over and over again.

Hey, I didn't say the Hakeem benefited from 3 pt shooters, he said it himself.

[ambchang]

You don't recall how your own favourite team's offense was constructed.
You don't recall how Robinson and Hakeem was neck to neck during the 94 and 95 seasons, with each other finishing as the MVPs.
You don't recall how Hakeem had a couple of crappy series in his life due to defensive philosophies and his teammates not providing the necessary help.
You don't recall how dominant Hakeem was in the early 90s, but the Rockets was so-so/sucked because he had a terrible team.
You can't even tell the difference between star power and skills.
Yes, you are definitely on a different' mental plane than me, and probably every one else who ever existed.

[kingmalaki]

Robinson didn’t have that much trouble scoring against Hakeem in the regular season, nor did he have too much trouble whenever the Spurs were nailing 3 pters in the exact same series. It really isn’t a coincidence.

He didn't. Hakeem wasn't pissed off and taking the matchup as personal in the regular season. A trip to the Finals also wasn't on the line. Bottom line, you are comparing apples and oranges.

Also, I hear you on the 3-point argument, but as I keep stating, that argument doesn't carry much weight because in some of those games they rarely shot the 3 ball. Not to mention that makes no sense (that they weren't shooting it) if Robinson was drawing as much attention as you claim he was. The Spurs were 2-7 in Game 6, and really 2-6 because Robinson took one of those 3's. Again, are you arguing that Elliott and Person both going 0-1 from behind the arc really impacted what Robinson did offensively?

Drexler was never close to MJ the way Robinson was to Hakeem.

You are correct. But the point is their perceptions, as far as how close they were, completely changed after that series.

I do not agree playoffs makes or breaks for a player. I never agreed that the number of rings is the sole indicator of player A over player B. The regular season actually provides a better look at how teams are able to perform under a certain consistent environment. The playoffs have much more preparation and variation in terms of game to game philosophies. It’s more to do with teamplay and the coach, and not individual play.

That's true. But when there is a situation where you are going for all the marbles, and one star clearly get's the better of the other in their individual matchup, I don't see how you can't say that one player got the better of the other.