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  1. #151
    Student of Liberty Galileo's Avatar
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    That's a load of .

    Orange is only 90 miles away from Washington DC.



    http://www.montpelier.org/explore/es...montpelier.php
    If he had crowds of visiters, he would be too busy too deal with the slaves. Plus he was president and the War of 1812 was raging on.

  2. #152
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    I know you two are having fun, but it seems to break down this way:

    Madison was a hypocrite for keeping his slaves. Madison realized that he was a hypocrite, and it wore on his conscience, but not enough to release them.

  3. #153
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    90 miles is a long way in those days. Bad roads. Mud. Lack of bridges, etc.
    But he spent a lot of time in Orange.

    If he had crowds of visiters, he would be too busy too deal with the slaves.
    Yes, he was too busy having them work his expanding plantation.
    Plus he was president and the War of 1812 was raging on.
    Yeah, he tried to invade Canada and got Washington DC burned instead.

  4. #154
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    I know you two are having fun, but it seems to break down this way:

    Madison was a hypocrite for keeping his slaves. Madison realized that he was a hypocrite, and it wore on his conscience, but not enough to release them.
    Exactly.

  5. #155
    Student of Liberty Galileo's Avatar
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    LAST LETTER OF JAMES MADISON

    written the less than 20 hours before his death:

    To George Tucker

    "June 27, 1836.

    My dear Sir,


    "I have received your letter of June 17th, with the paper enclosed in it.

    A part from the value put on such a mark of respect from you in a dedication of your "Life of Mr. Jefferson" to me, I could only be governed in accepting it by my confidence in your capacity to do justice to a character so interesting to his country and to the world; and, I may be permitted to add, with whose principles of liberty and political career mine have been so extensively congenial.

    It could not escape me that a feeling of personal friendship has mingled itself greatly with the credit you allow to my public services. I am, at the same time, justified by my consciousness in saying, that an ardent zeal was always felt to make up for deficiencies in them by a sincere and steadfast cooperation in promoting such a reconstruction of our political system as would provide for the permanent liberty and happiness of the United States; and that of the many good fruits it has produced which have well rewarded the efforts and anxieties that led to it, no one has been a more rejoicing witness than myself.

    With cordial salutations on the near approach to the end of your undertaking, &c."

    http://www.cons ution.org/jm/18360627_tucker.htm

    James Madison died on June 28, 1836, the last and the greatest of the Founding Fathers. They wanted to keep him alive and pump him with drugs until July 4 so he could die on July 4 like John Adams did (in 1826), Jefferson did (in 1826), and James Monroe did (in 1831).

    But Madison refused. This last act shows the character of the beloved and divine James Madison, a man who went out on his own terms, without fanfare.
    btw - Tucker was a noted abolishionist. The Founding Fathers did their work, they expected the next generation or two to free the slaves. Madison was left waiting in the lurch.

  6. #156
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    btw - Tucker was a noted abolishionist. The Founding Fathers did their work, they expected the next generation or two to free the slaves. Madison was left waiting in the lurch.
    Madison never freed any of his approximately 100 slaves.

  7. #157
    Student of Liberty Galileo's Avatar
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    But he spent a lot of time in Orange.
    Not much time, and when he was, he did not have a spare minute.

    Yes, he was too busy having them work his expanding plantation.
    No, his plantation was actually reduced in size.

    Yeah, he tried to invade Canada and got Washington DC burned instead.
    He tried to invade Canada, so he could add free states to the Union and free the slaves. Canada would have added 5 new states right away, plus more later; Upper Canada, Lower Canada, Quebec, New Brunswick, and Novia Scotia.

    That would have added 10 senators and a few dozen new congressmen.

    The slave states would ahve been way outnumbered and emancipation would have been worked out by a gradual process, plus selling western lands to fund the project.

    In fact, the New England States, those supposedly most against slavery, sabatouged Madison's war effort. They would not provide militia nor help with the war effort, plus they threatened to secede at the Hartford Convention of 1814.

    How many people do you know who would go to those lengths to free the slaves? Invade Canada, that is quite a project.

  8. #158
    Student of Liberty Galileo's Avatar
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    I know you two are having fun, but it seems to break down this way:

    Madison was a hypocrite for keeping his slaves. Madison realized that he was a hypocrite, and it wore on his conscience, but not enough to release them.
    Madison was not a hypocrite. He tried as hard as he could to free the slaves, but the BOSS (his wife) wouldn't let him.

  9. #159
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    Not much time, and when he was, he did not have a spare minute.
    Right. He was too busy running the plantation with the human beings he owned.

    No, his plantation was actually reduced in size.
    The house certainly got bigger.


    He tried to invade Canada, so he could add free states to the Union and free the slaves. Canada would have added 5 new states right away, plus more later; Upper Canada, Lower Canada, Quebec, New Brunswick, and Novia Scotia.

    That would have added 10 senators and a few dozen new congressmen.

    The slave states would ahve been way outnumbered and emancipation would have been worked out by a gradual process, plus selling western lands to fund the project.

    In fact, the New England States, those supposedly most against slavery, sabatouged Madison's war effort. They would not provide militia nor help with the war effort, plus they threatened to secede at the Hartford Convention of 1814.

    How many people do you know who would go to those lengths to free the slaves? Invade Canada, that is quite a project.
    I would have been more impressed have he just freed his own slaves and not gotten the White House burned to a crisp.

  10. #160
    Student of Liberty Galileo's Avatar
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    Exactly wrong.

  11. #161
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    James Madison never freed any of his slaves.

    Exactly right.

  12. #162
    Student of Liberty Galileo's Avatar
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    Right. He was too busy running the plantation with the human beings he owned.

    The house certainly got bigger.


    I would have been more impressed have he just freed his own slaves and not gotten the White House burned to a crisp.
    Madison died in 1836, before you were born. I'm sure he would have checked in with you before solving all the nations problems.

  13. #163
    Student of Liberty Galileo's Avatar
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    James Madison never freed any of his slaves.

    Exactly right.
    They were already slaves before he inherited them.

    If his brother Ambrose had not died unexpectadly, he wouldn't have had any slaves.

    Ambrose ran the plantation when his father got old.

  14. #164
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    They were already slaves before he inherited them.

    If his brother Ambrose had not died unexpectadly, he wouldn't have had any slaves.

    Ambrose ran the plantation when his father got old.
    James Madison never freed any of his slaves.

  15. #165
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    Madison was not a hypocrite. He tried as hard as he could to free the slaves, but the BOSS (his wife) wouldn't let him.
    Eh, he could've found other means to support her, I'm sure. I don't doubt Madison was better than alot of other slave owners, but he still kept his slaves.

    One could even argue the fact that him realizing this conflict of interest at all shows an advanced morality compared to the mindset of the day. But he still kept the slaves, and no matter what proof there was negating the negative impact of that information, that fact can not be disputed.

  16. #166
    Student of Liberty Galileo's Avatar
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    Another point, James Madison's grandfather, also named Ambrose, was poisoned to death by slaves in 1832. His grandmother was still alive when James was born and was alive well into his childhood, to tell him the story.

    Yet James never harbored any ill felling or prejeduces against slaves, despite that. It would be easy to become racist if something like that happened to your grandfather, especially in those days.

    Madison, almost unique in his time, never uttered a racist word in his life. And he had a LOT of words do ented, a vast amount of material.

    Three generations later, Abe Lincoln was still making racist comments in 1858.

  17. #167
    Student of Liberty Galileo's Avatar
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    Eh, he could've found other means to support her, I'm sure. I don't doubt Madison was better than alot of other slave owners, but he still kept his slaves.

    One could even argue the fact that him realizing this conflict of interest at all shows an advanced morality compared to the mindset of the day. But he still kept the slaves, and no matter what proof there was negating the negative impact of that information, that fact can not be disputed.
    He left his collected papers to her. They were sold for $100,000. But Dolley didn't free all the slaves, only some of them.

    Dolley lived until 1848. She became so poor that her fomer slave Paul Jennings had to bring her food and money so she would not starve to death.

  18. #168
    Student of Liberty Galileo's Avatar
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    James Madison never freed any of his slaves.
    please say it three times fast, without breathing or thinking.


  19. #169
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    \Dolley didn't free all the slaves, only some of them.
    That's more than James Madison.

    James Madison didn't free any of his slaves.

  20. #170
    Student of Liberty Galileo's Avatar
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    Eh, he could've found other means to support her, I'm sure. I don't doubt Madison was better than alot of other slave owners, but he still kept his slaves.

    One could even argue the fact that him realizing this conflict of interest at all shows an advanced morality compared to the mindset of the day. But he still kept the slaves, and no matter what proof there was negating the negative impact of that information, that fact can not be disputed.
    he was going to free them, but he died before he was finished.

  21. #171
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    he was going to free them, but he died before he was finished.
    He had no intention of freeing them while he was alive, and he did not free any of them upon his death.

  22. #172
    Student of Liberty Galileo's Avatar
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    That's more than James Madison.

    James Madison didn't free any of his slaves.
    Yeah, but he left her papers worth $100,000.

    A healthy, able bodied male slave back then was worth $1000.

    So that money was worth way more than all his slaves put together. Old slaves are worth anything, and sick and/or disabled ones not worth much.

  23. #173
    Student of Liberty Galileo's Avatar
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    He had no intention of freeing them while he was alive, and he did not free any of them upon his death.
    He did have the intention, but he was too busy building the American Republic, securing our Liberty. And he didn't have the money, as his papers weren't sold yet.

    Frankly, when his father died, he should just have sold the slaves off, down to the backbreaking southern plantations, and let someone else take the blame.

  24. #174
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Yeah, but he left her papers worth $100,000.

    A healthy, able bodied male slave back then was worth $1000.

    So that money was worth way more than all his slaves put together. Old slaves are worth anything, and sick and/or disabled ones not worth much.
    So he should have freed them all at least on his death.

    Jame Madison didn't free any slaves, alive or dead.

  25. #175
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    He did have the intention, but he was too busy building the American Republic, securing our Liberty. And he didn't have the money, as his papers weren't sold yet.
    He had no intention.

    Frankly, when his father died, he should just have sold the slaves off, down to the backbreaking southern plantations, and let someone else take the blame.
    Another pro slavery argument from you.

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