The Plan

[Wild Cobra]

So you're telling me that trickle down economics is basically bull ?

No, but trickle-down bailout is!

[101A]

No, but trickle-down bailout is!

That's actually a good point.

[ElNono]

No, but trickle-down bailout is!

Couldn't agree more. But on the same tone, if you want to keep all the fruits of your labor, there's nothing to trickle down either...

[LnGrrrR]

Bull . Conservatives don't believe in overzealous and "feel-good" projects. Most are all for reasonable regulations in all areas.

I would argue that the Iraq War could be considered an overzealous and "feel-good" project. After all, that's what all the purple fingers were about, I thought.

History has proven over and over that necessarily regulating markets harm them more than keeping them as free as possible.

As possible? That's a bit of a qualifier there WC. If the government were willing to let our entire economy collapse, and not bail out the banks, then maybe we wouldn't need regulation of CDS. Of course, that didn't and won't happen in the future, hence the need for regulation.

[Wild Cobra]

As possible? That's a bit of a qualifier there WC. If the government were willing to let our entire economy collapse, and not bail out the banks, then maybe we wouldn't need regulation of CDS. Of course, that didn't and won't happen in the future, hence the need for regulation.

Some regulation is needed. Look at what happened historically when the government overstepped it's bounds. Especially in things like price controls, wage freezes, etc.

The economy would not have collapsed by letting the bankers fail.

[DarrinS]

Conservatives have a strange view of the world where the rich should be allowed to keep sucking wealth from the majority in a never ending feedback loop. Conservatives think we shouldn't have environmental regulations because we should subsidize business instead. They about the taxes on the companies who pollute while dodging the fact that dumping waste in our water makes it more expensive to clean, thus making it more expensive to the general population. They ignore filling our air full of carcinogens makes us sicker and drives our medical costs up. They ignore that the lack of environmental regulation is in effect a regressive tax. Conservatives also like to criticize national government in favor of state governments because it's easier for business to bully state governments into sweetheart deals by threatening to move out of state.

I can't understand people who look at the disaster of the completely unregulated derivatives market that has sunk our nation to the brink of depression and want more. I can't understand conservatives who think the government should always step aside for business after we saw Enron rape California once their energy markets were deregulated. I can't understand people who saw our economy collapse on the dot.com bubble due to rampant speculation and think it's not a problem. I can't understand how anyone can think we're better off now after the conservative revolution of the 80s until now that has bled the middle class dry.

Compare the current states of California and Texas. I'll take conservative policies, thank you very much.


EDIT> Democrat leadership has done wonders for Michigan too.

[LnGrrrR]

Some regulation is needed. Look at what happened historically when the government overstepped it's bounds. Especially in things like price controls, wage freezes, etc.

The economy would not have collapsed by letting the bankers fail.

There's certainly alot of contention on this issue. What do you think of Japan's lost decade? They didn't take any action, and it seemingly doomed them. Why is their situation different?

As well, I seem to recall you predicting the DOW would drop to about 6,000 due to the Democrat's policies, and the opposite has happened.

[LnGrrrR]

Compare the current states of California and Texas. I'll take conservative policies, thank you very much.


EDIT> Democrat leadership has done wonders for Michigan too.

This graph backs you up Darrin.

http://www.politicsinminnesota.com/f...-200902051.pdf

[hope4dopes]

Obama and the Democrats have a plan for society:






I cannot help but think of the democrats as wanting to recreate our society, but they have to first destroy it.

"The first step in community organization is community disorganization. The disruption of the present organization is the first step toward community organization. Present arrangements must be disorganized if they are to be displace by new patterns.... All change means disorganization of the old and organization of the new." p.116


Saul alinsky.

This is why the pillars of westeren culture are constanly under attack by the left. This is why the american experiment is constantly villified by the left. The left can allow no realistic view of the world and the west to exist, because it's dream is not to realize westeren culture, but to destroy it. For what end....for the end of creating a void in which the state takes the place of those cultural ins utions,.....for the betterment of the proloteriat? no....for there own personal and sick need for power.But if you destroy everything, anything can fill the void left by the destruction.
The Obama regime is not a product of American liberalisim ,it is a product of international radicalisim.

[ElNono]

Compare the current states of California and Texas. I'll take conservative policies, thank you very much.

EDIT> Democrat leadership has done wonders for Michigan too.

I thought California was run by a Republican governor for the longest time now?

[Wild Cobra]

There's certainly alot of contention on this issue. What do you think of Japan's lost decade? They didn't take any action, and it seemingly doomed them. Why is their situation different?

I wasn't against the government taking some action, I was only against bailing out those who had bad business practices.

Reward bad behavior, and you get more.

If you go back to the earliest of my posts on the subject, I said the government should guarantee loans by smaller banks who did it right, to cover borrowing as needed.

As well, I seem to recall you predicting the DOW would drop to about 6,000 due to the Democrat's policies, and the opposite has happened.

No, it just didn't drop as far as 6,000. It bottomed at 6547.04, I wasn't too far off percentage wise. I made a miscalculation, and if I was correct, I would have bought back into stocks even sooner, before they started going up again. March 9, the Dow hit 6547.04. While I was waiting for lower, I missed the bottom, by about a week. I got in at about 7,600 if I remember right. I don't remember my password for my on-line account and I'm not going to find it to accurately find my gains. I know they are there. I only get an annual report in the mail.

[DarrinS]

I thought California was run by a Republican governor for the longest time now?

Yes, he has an (R.) after his name, but I wouldn't call him a conservative. By and large, the state is run by progressives.

[hope4dopes]

I thought California was run by a Republican governor for the longest time now?

The democrats have controlled the state legislature for the longest time now.

[Wild Cobra]

I thought California was run by a Republican governor for the longest time now?

We were over this before.

California's legislature has been controlled by democrats for the last few decades. A republican governor has no power to change past laws, without the support of a democrat legislature.

[LnGrrrR]

I wasn't against the government taking some action, I was only against bailing out those who had bad business practices.

Reward bad behavior, and you get more.

If you go back to the earliest of my posts on the subject, I said the government should guarantee loans by smaller banks who did it right, to cover borrowing as needed.

Ah, thank you for the clarification.

No, it just didn't drop as far as 6,000. It bottomed at 6547.04, I wasn't too far off percentage wise. I made a miscalculation, and if I was correct, I would have bought back into stocks even sooner, before they started going up again. March 9, the Dow hit 6547.04. While I was waiting for lower, I missed the bottom, by about a week. I got in at about 7,600 if I remember right. I don't remember my password for my on-line account and I'm not going to find it to accurately find my gains. I know they are there. I only get an annual report in the mail.

I jumped into the stock market around that time as well (7,000 or so). I figured they couldn't get much lower.

The main point was that economics are a tricky thing to predict.

[ElNono]

We were over this before.

California's legislature has been controlled by democrats for the last few decades. A republican governor has no power to change past laws, without the support of a democrat legislature.

But he has power to veto laws passed by the legislature... correct?

[DarrinS]

But he has power to veto laws passed by the legislature... correct?

By the way, I wasn't trying to stick up for Ahhhhnold. I think he has done a ty job there.

[baseline bum]

The rich being able to "suck the wealth" from others is not a conservative idea. Funny how people like George Soros, a rich liberal Billionaire, makes his money in the financial industry, and look who he supports!

And Jeff Skilling was a close friend to the Bushes. Look how he made his money. We can play this game all day, but I got you beat this round.

Being a conservative embraces the idea to be able to keep the fruits of your labor. Not by destroying others. Money is also not a zero sum game.

Being a conservative means trashing organized labor because it gets in the way of the rich being able to exploit the lower classes. Being conservative means blaming the nation's ills on illegal immigrants instead of corporate greed.

Bull . Conservatives don't believe in overzealous and "feel-good" projects. Most are all for reasonable regulations in all areas.

Except in important things like pollution, health care costs, military spending, and so on.

We about nearly all taxes. Not just corporate polluters. You cannot tie the two together like that amd maintain a strait face, at least if you are intelligent about it.

So it's not a socialized expense? How do you figure?

I am all for doing what we can to solve any remaining issues out there. So are most conservatives, until you guys take it to the extreme.

Conservatives love to about emissions standards, and consider doing anything the extreme.

What do you mean? Any corporate tax is regressive because it affects the price of all who purchase the products.

As opposed to just affecting all period like in the example I cited.

That an be an effect, but it's because we believe in States Rights rather than a strong fascist government like you do.

Divide and conquer. A great way to take over nations or sort arrays.

History has proven over and over that necessarily regulating markets harm them more than keeping them as free as possible.

Yeah, Phil Gramm's work deregulating markets to set Enron up to "trade" energy without government intervention was a real winner!

Not step aside, but not control either. Enron was an illegal action and I'd like you to show me conservatives who support Enron's illegal activities. It is liberals who have the "I want it now" at ude, and I'll bet there were liberals running that operation, not conservatives.

Jeff Skilling, a personal friend to Daddy Bush and Dummy Bush, was a liberal? Kenneth Lay? You gotta be ting me.

Seasoned investors knew what they were doing, and the economic outlook had plenty of signs it was going to happen. Investment is not without risk. People lost money knew there was risk. So what?

OK. How about relaxed standards on oil futures? That did wonders for us in summer 2008.

We are far better off, and you guys keep making policies that will give us early 80's double-digit type inflation.

You sure about that? In the 80s we had a manufacturing sector.

[hope4dopes]

But he has power to veto laws passed by the legislature... correct?

And he does from time to time but, let's take a bite out of the reality sandwich...he is married to a kennedy.He was elected(during a recall election) to replace a democrat govenor heading a democrat legislature, who the state felt that grey davis was not only extremely incompetent, but massively corrupt.Although there are some excellent republican canidates such as Tom Mc clintok, the state of California is way too far left to elect a real republican.....yet.

[Wild Cobra]

But he has power to veto laws passed by the legislature... correct?

Not the past laws, programs, etc. that are costing the state money every year. Only the current bills.

I haven't followed California politics, but I seem to remember allot of veto overrides in California.

Anyone know?

[hope4dopes]

And Jeff Skilling was a close friend to the Bushes. Look how he made his money. We can play this game all day, but I got you beat this round.



Being a conservative means trashing organized labor because it gets in the way of the rich being able to exploit the lower classes. Being conservative means blaming the nation's ills on illegal immigrants instead of corporate greed.

Thrashing organized labor? that was done a long time ago.7% of all private sector industry is represented by a union. We've had many democrat presidents come and go and the lot of the worker has steadily gone down.The Unions haven't repesented labor since the 30's, they were bought of by the guys who own the corporations along time ago.and these mouthpieces for the owners every four years are sanctioned, and blessed by the DNC.



Except in important things like pollution, health care costs, military spending, and so on.

I believe it was Richard Nixon a republican who started the EPA



So it's not a socialized expense? How do you figure?



Conservatives love to about emissions standards, and consider doing anything the extreme.



As opposed to just affecting all period like in the example I cited.



Divide and conquer. A great way to take over nations or sort arrays.



Yeah, Phil Gramm's work deregulating markets to set Enron up to "trade" energy without government intervention was a real winner!



Jeff Skilling, a personal friend to Daddy Bush and Dummy Bush, was a liberal? Kenneth Lay? You gotta be ting me.



OK. How about relaxed standards on oil futures? That did wonders for us in summer 2008.



You sure about that? In the 80s we had a manufacturing sector.

In the 80's we had a manufacturing sector? compared to what bulgaria....our manufacturing sector was gutted along time ago, and has been limping along to the graveyard since, and agian no democrat has done anything but give us bull promises about it, in fact the most recent example is Bill Clinton promising the unions he would not pass NAFTA if they voted for him, and once elected one of his first acts was to PASS NAFTA thousands and thousands of manufacturing jobs went south. Clinton told us all we would become a service oriented society for all those poor blue collar workers, then the democrats shuffled as many illegal aliens as they could up north to drive down the price of service labour. Yeah we got problems, and yes the republicans are up to their asses in helping to create them, but so are the democrats.The DNC offers no REAL hope to the workers, just slogans and lies.Is that what it means to be a liberal

[Wild Cobra]

And Jeff Skilling was a close friend to the Bushes. Look how he made his money. We can play this game all day, but I got you beat this round.

Friend or associated with in one way or another?

Besides, according to you liberals, who you are friend with doesn't matter. You don't hold Obama accountable for Ayres, Wright, etc...

Being a conservative means trashing organized labor because it gets in the way of the rich being able to exploit the lower classes.

They also get in the way of individuals getting paid what is fair by merit. Everyone is treated as the lowest common denominator.

Unions have some good points, but mostly, they do more harm than good today.

Being conservative means blaming the nation's ills on illegal immigrants instead of corporate greed.

No, but placing the blame where it originates from. Illegal immigrans increase the supply of low wage workers, keeping wages low in a supply and demand environment. They increase the number of people receiving government hand-outs. They are a net tax burden that we shouldn't have to deal with.

Except in important things like pollution, health care costs, military spending, and so on.

Show me conservative policies for polluters please.

We believe all current forms of health care reform on the table will cost far more and increase costs dramatically. Republicans are also all but locked out of the decisions.

As for military spending, most conservatives like me simply want them returned to their pre-Clinton dismantling levels.

So it's not a socialized expense? How do you figure?

I don't know where you're going with this. Corporate polluters should be strung up by their balls if they violate regulations!

You don't tax polluters more, you put them in jail!

Conservatives love to about emissions standards, and consider doing anything the extreme.

Aren't emission standards good enough for you? Which ones aren't good enough? I'll listen.

As opposed to just affecting all period like in the example I cited.

You cannot tie the two together. Two different topics.

Divide and conquer. A great way to take over nations or sort arrays.

Yes, I know. That's what you believe.

Yeah, Phil Gramm's work deregulating markets to set Enron up to "trade" energy without government intervention was a real winner!

Who else voted for that deregulation?

Give me a bill number and year so I can look it up. I'll bet it's not quite like you think.

Jeff Skilling, a personal friend to Daddy Bush and Dummy Bush, was a liberal? Kenneth Lay? You gotta be ting me.

I don't know, but there are bad apples in every basket. I'm not ignorant enough to hold someone responsible for their friends and associates.

OK. How about relaxed standards on oil futures? That did wonders for us in summer 2008.

How about citing the actual legislation on these. The way the media is in general, I am very skeptical of the accuracy.

You sure about that? In the 80s we had a manufacturing sector.

Correct, we are not better of in all aspects. Manufacturing is one sector destroyed by aggressive unions and corporate taxes.

[spurster]

Shoot. WC has discovered our secret plan. I guess it's back to the drawing board.

[Winehole23]

I thought California was run by a Republican governor for the longest time now?

And I guess Michigan went completely to during six years of Jennifer Granholm, after 12 years of John Engler.

[Winehole23]

That's actually a good point.

A very good point.

If the consumer is the golden goose, there should be a lot more direct assistance for indidvidual citizens, the unemployed and the small firms that employ them, and a lot less to suffering billionaires.