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We were talking about profesional players and you came up with that. Besides I've seen a lot of games where a bunch of unathletic old grandpas beat a group of talented and energetic 20 years old.
That's exactly the point. Both guys won on sheer willpower alone those years...and that is what separates the two right now.
Kobe's matured beyond winning it by himself; LeBron is still stuck there despite having vastly improved his roster. It's still LeBron in Cleveland while it's the Lakers in the West.
That's why Kobe is the better player in my opinion.
We were talking about profesional players and you came up with that. Besides I've seen a lot of games where a bunch of unathletic old grandpas beat a group of talented and energetic 20 years old.
This argument would be a lot less subjective if they've been in the league the same amount of time. We'll have to pick this back up in 10 years.
this arguement you 2 are haivng is dumb...in 20 yrs...people will remember them for how many rings they won, just like noone is gonna remember Karl Malone.
I'm not saying LeBron can't get there; and as you said, it's not really fair due to their varying time in the league.
You may say I am judging Kobe in front of Lebron unfairly because of this; but the list is for this year and I'm just speaking up to this point.
I agree, we'll have a much better look at it in 10 years.
Dude, you're arguing with me 'cause you assume that I bealive that Kobe doesn't make his teammates better and I never said that.
Kobe used to be a bad teammate but he matured, now he realizes that in order for his team to win he doesn't need to score 40 points per game, he just needs to play the game in the right way.
Nonsense.
im just arguing that in general, if you have crappy team you will lose regardless if you TRY to make your teamates better and that its dumb to base a player off that. Whether you score 40 points or have 40 assists. You do what you need to do to win.
If your teammates suck as bad as Kwame...you would like to the "right" thing and pass to him, but that shouldnt always be the case.
Not arguing totally against you DAF...i just hate arguements about making the teamates better cuz there are so many factors.
[[[Kobe's matured beyond winning it by himself]]]
That cake walk he was presented with didn't hurt a bit.
Kobe didn't mature, the tide just started moving the other way. It'd been moving against him since that Sun fell on Malone's leg. It happens that way in life. Just got to hope it don't get worse (in Bryant's case it got a lot worse before it reversed course).
Now he's got to grab with both ass scratchers as long as it lasts.
About making teammates better.
I think it is as much a system thing and willingness to buy into the program. Phil Jackson is a good teacher and Kobe has developed into a leader.
back in 05' 06' Kobe had no choice but to score a lot and try to win games to pull a team of scrubs into the playoffs.
Kobe is now surrounded by capable players he trust now. As long as he command a double team the Lakers will have an edge.
I think Kobe can maintain his current level for the next 4-5 years. His game is not so heavily predicated on his athleticism anymore. He has become a floor general and relies on his pure basic basketball skills.
This is true.
Playing in the western conference.What exactly was Kobe doing when the Lakers 2nd best player was about as good as Mo Williams?
So you think its just a coincidence that the year his team drastically improves he becomes more of a team player...He just woke up one morning and thought to himself "maybe I should start passing more"?
I agree with the top 3.
LeBron is the best "individual" NBA player. Based on sheer individual production, LeBron is the best.
But that's why things like this are skewed, since there subjectivity and different and varying factors people use to qualify and determine what player is better than another.
At the end of the day, it's probably a toss-up between LeBron and Kobe, but I think it's right if you view it strictly as which is the better individual player. Not who is a better winner or team player; not who is most skilled; not who is more clutch. Who is the better player? Who produces better? Individually, I'd agree with LeBron as the choice.
Where've you been? Kobe makes his teammates better and it's not even debatable
Smush seemed like an adequate starter playing with kobe. he's not playing with Kobe now, he's out of the league.
Same with Brian Cook, who can't even get floor time now w/o Kobe.
And come on Pau is much better w/kobe than he as in memphis. Just look at his effeciency
Gasol's numbers are near identical in Memphis and LA.
Who was passing who the ball in crunch time at the olympics?
I knew Kobe was better before last season but i thought lebron would pass him up the season after, this season, but Kobe's thirst to get better is never ending. For a guard he has ridiculously good post moves, but he still goes to Hakeem to refine them and get even better. Why he is the best isn't much of a secret. Lebron has yet to learn a post up move in a game or turn his jump shot into something more reliable.I don't like it, but Kobe > Lebron.
Both guys can carry a team, but Bryant has done so with better results. Kobe has won many times on the biggest levels. Lebron has not.
Lebron is all muscle, athleticism, and hype. Kobe is a downright assassin on the court, and has been even after losing some of his athleticism.
Kobe has hit countless big playoff shots. ESPN lost its load last spring when "King James" hit what seemed to be his first.
But yeah, let's give it to the guy that can run fast and dunk hard.
#1 and #2 are always debatable, its not like there is a mile difference (other than the Jordan era)
Touchee!
No, he obviously passes the ball more now 'cause he trust his teammates more.So you think its just a coincidence that the year his team drastically improves he becomes more of a team player...He just woke up one morning and thought to himself "maybe I should start passing more"?
But in order to take the best out of his previous " ty" teammates, he should have played like he's doing right now with them. Of course it wouldn't have been enough to win the championship 'cause the talent wasn't there but it would have maximazed the potential of that team.
The flaw with your logic is, is that it depends on the context, the team. If i had a crappy team, and I wanted to get the most out of it, I would pick Lebron. The guy is a tripple double machine, but people are quick to associate triple doubles with some godly figure.
Kobe's offensive arsenal maybe one of the best of all time. Despite the fact he is aging and losing his athleticism it is extremely hard to see, the guy BARELY drove to the basket, actually he only drove like 5 or 6 times the entire series of the finals and still piled up 30ppg. The ability to pick and choose between your offensive abilities and still maintain scoring of that magnitude is downright unbelievable. His defense maybe overrated but that doesn't mean its bad, its overrated because he doesn't play defense all the time, which is understandable, but he is still a great defender at the same time. People are quick to place other dynaminc wings like t-mac a couple of years ago, and lebron now, as better than Kobe but they are disproven.. Kobe is the guy I would want on my championship team, he is that one scoring threat that no defense has an answer for, he is the only thing that slows himself down. You can't say that about Lebron though
Yes. And I said it first. Don't even start.
Damn fine point, sooker.
yes it is
What I'm trying to say is that "making your teammates better" isn't just a dumb cliche like you said. Of course that if you don't have the talent you won't win much, but "making your teammates better" isn't about winning or losing, it's about helping your team to be the best it can be, if you aren't good it's obvious that your best won't be enough to win.
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