I don't think RJ can play with TP

[MaNu4Tres]

If anyone has Pokerstars I would appreciate your support. Let me know if you do. If you don't ignore.

[kace]

Manu's also an excellent passer with excellent vision while both Tony and RJ are only decent playmakers. Tony is a better playmaker than RJ but that's still not saying much. Manu drives to score or make plays 60/40. Tony and RJ drive to score or make plays about 80/20.

With Manu, defenders basically have to butt hug him and still worry about getting taken off the dribble and then worry about him making a play for somebody else.

Allanon pretty much summed it up perfectly..

It's going to be very tough for Jefferson and Parker to fit together..

lol Yep Allanon actually summed it up really well.

Allanon's post seems very interesting but.......is still false for the passing part (the 3 pts part is right).


for the last three years, manu's ratio of shot taken/assist (including for shots the number of shooting fouls drawn) is 3.6 (2008-2009), 3.4 (2007-2008) and 3.8 (2006-2007).

as for the ratio assist/bad pass: 3.2, 2.8 and 3.1


for tony the last three years from 2008-2009 to 2006-2007: ratio shot taken/assist: 2.9, 2.9 and 3

ratio assist-bad pass: 7, 6.2 and 5.5


so, not only manu isn't a better passer than tony (indeed, his ratio assist/bad pass is twice worse than tony's one the last three years), but manu choose more often than tony to shoot rather than to assist (indeed, for the last 3 years, manu's lowest ratio of shot taken compared to assist made is still way superior as tony's highest).

still, these stats don't include times where the player give away the ball without making an assist.

but the fact than manu can make spectacular passes that tony can't, at least in such a regular basis, shouldn't hide us the truth of passing abilities.


(stats from 82games.com)

[raspsa]

Its going to take time to develop chemistry betwen the old guys and new faces. Injuries to key players make this even more difficult. Others are still not in game shape.But have faith in the players and coaching staff.. they're not dimmies and given enough time, they will sort things out.

Talk of trades is way premature. You work with the pieces you have. IMO developing strong team cohesion will trump inividual greatness at the end of the day.

[Brazil]

Maybe RJ can take the off bench duties and lead the second squad. Let Manu in the starting 5 with Tim and TD + Dice, let RJ dominate the second unit with George and Blair.

[024]

I agree that Parker needs to evolve his game and become a better passing pg. Spurs fans still expect Parker to be the leading scorer but I think he should take a step back. He is the point guard so it's his responsibility to distribute the ball, not look to create for himself. But this has nothing to do with todays lost. Ginobili clunking his shots was the problem.

[spursncowboys]

Maybe RJ can take the off bench duties and lead the second squad. Let Manu in the starting 5 with Tim and TD + Dice, let RJ dominate the second unit with George and Blair.

Manu and Jefferson played good together. Keep them together.

[portnoy1]

TP is great and underrated in many instances, but the thing that separates him from the so called top 1 or 2 best PG spots is that he cant see the floor as good as CP3, D-Will, Rondo and Calderon (Note - both Rondo and Calderon are inferior to TP but as PG's they offensively have a better awareness). Parker can rack up assist by penetration and dish all day long. However finding people in their spots is something he has difficulty doing. The other 4 PG's mention will look for cutters and guys coming off screens, mismatches and finding people in their spots. Im not gonna shortchange TP, he can do all those things mentioned above. However its not natural for him, and since that is the case his game suffers. Its a catch 22 because him giving up the ball will mean more opportunities for RJ in particular and some others. However that screws up TP's game, and since he is the most consistent and dominant scorer on the team you want him to be comfortable in the offense so he can perform night in, night out at his highest potential. So him going 1 on 5 and kicking out to RJ will have to do. If TP looks for his teammates and isnt offensively aggressive then he looks lost. I've seen it before, you dont get much out of him. The good thing is that TP going 1 on 5 wont screw up RJ's game as bad as Parker moving the ball around, because when Parker kicks out to RJ, RJ can shoot the 3 or take it off the dribble and do his thing.

[benefactor]

Is any of this really a surprise? Parker is just doing the same things he has done for years with this team. You can't undo that in a couple of weeks. New player...new system...new teammates...new roles...how many times does it have to be said before we all figure out that they are not just going to magically mend together seamlessly as soon as they all step on the floor?

Parker and RJ will be fine. They just need floor time together so that they can develop a basketball relationship that will enhance each others strengths. RJ will need to recognize when to attack and Parker will need to learn that all the playmaking onus is no longer totally on his shoulders. As others have stated, Pop may need to step in too and work out some ways to get RJ the ball. Perhaps they can do something similar to what the Mavericks do with Howard...where they make it a point to feed him the ball in the first quarter to get him rolling.

[da_suns_fan]

[ElNono]

Allanon's post seems very interesting but.......is still false for the passing part (the 3 pts part is right).


for the last three years, manu's ratio of shot taken/assist (including for shots the number of shooting fouls drawn) is 3.6 (2008-2009), 3.4 (2007-2008) and 3.8 (2006-2007).

as for the ratio assist/bad pass: 3.2, 2.8 and 3.1


for tony the last three years from 2008-2009 to 2006-2007: ratio shot taken/assist: 2.9, 2.9 and 3

ratio assist-bad pass: 7, 6.2 and 5.5


so, not only manu isn't a better passer than tony (indeed, his ratio assist/bad pass is twice worse than tony's one the last three years), but manu choose more often than tony to shoot rather than to assist (indeed, for the last 3 years, manu's lowest ratio of shot taken compared to assist made is still way superior as tony's highest).

still, these stats don't include times where the player give away the ball without making an assist.

but the fact than manu can make spectacular passes that tony can't, at least in such a regular basis, shouldn't hide us the truth of passing abilities.

(stats from 82games.com)

Does those numbers only include when both were playing PG? Otherwise,they're pretty re ed.

[DAF86]

Allanon's post seems very interesting but.......is still false for the passing part (the 3 pts part is right).


for the last three years, manu's ratio of shot taken/assist (including for shots the number of shooting fouls drawn) is 3.6 (2008-2009), 3.4 (2007-2008) and 3.8 (2006-2007).

as for the ratio assist/bad pass: 3.2, 2.8 and 3.1


for tony the last three years from 2008-2009 to 2006-2007: ratio shot taken/assist: 2.9, 2.9 and 3

ratio assist-bad pass: 7, 6.2 and 5.5


so, not only manu isn't a better passer than tony (indeed, his ratio assist/bad pass is twice worse than tony's one the last three years), but manu choose more often than tony to shoot rather than to assist (indeed, for the last 3 years, manu's lowest ratio of shot taken compared to assist made is still way superior as tony's highest).

still, these stats don't include times where the player give away the ball without making an assist.

but the fact than manu can make spectacular passes that tony can't, at least in such a regular basis, shouldn't hide us the truth of passing abilities.


(stats from 82games.com)

Watch the games.

[kace]

Does those numbers only include when both were playing PG? Otherwise,they're pretty re ed.

Read the post i'm answering. it's not a cutting remark to manu who is great at what he does, no doubt.

Allanon was saying manu was 60/40 between shot and pass when he has the ball and tony 80/20. i assume, as manu doesn't play PG, he was talking about their game in their respective position and role.

the fact is this assertion was false. and by far.

Watch the games.

actually, games could be deceptive. a spectacular assist will be highlighted and remembered even between two turnovers whereas a classic inside-outside assist for a 3's will be forgotten quickly.

and the games i watch clearly match those stats.

Once again, not same position, different usefulness, perfect players for this team, no doubt.
but the 80/20 and 60/40 argument is BS.

His argument about RJ and TP not being great 3 pts threats and that it could help the defense against them together on the court is true though.

[ElNono]

Read the post i'm answering. it's not a cutting remark to manu who is great at what he does, no doubt.

Allanon was saying manu was 60/40 between shot and pass when he has the ball and tony 80/20. i assume, as manu doesn't play PG, he was talking about their game in their respective position and role.

the fact is this assertion was false. and by far.

I would agree with Allanon's impressions when both are starting the play.
Obviously, Manu also has to deal with taking a last minute shot after our PG dribbled for 20 seconds without being able to score...

I also agree that you need to watch games more. Overall, Manu is looking to pass more than to score more. It didn't used to be like that when he was more athletic, but the last few seasons, as his PG role increased, he's been passing more/better.

[Whisky Dog]

It's just about getting the right lineups together to make plays. That's what this part of the season is for, I'd expect the Spira to hover just over .500 until about game 20 the start to explode upwards.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Give them time. Actually Parker is pretty suited to play with RJ because they both like to run and they both can finish. Parker hasn't played with many players that can run with him, so it will take time to adjust.

I don't know. People said this exact thing before the 2003-2004 season in regards to Parker and Ginobili. And can we honestly say we've seen alot of two man action between them running down the floor? Not as much as one would think.

[Big P]

RJ & TP both need to start driving to the basket more. I'm sick of everyone standing around watching the ball handler. RJ needs to figure it out quickly & quit trying to be a simple jump shooter. We brought you here for more than spot up shooting. Yes thats how you will get a lot of your shots, coming to the corner waiting for the ball as the defenders sag, but RJ you need to be yourseldf & start driving the ball more & get some easy baskets & fouls.

[kace]

I would agree with Allanon's impressions when both are starting the play.
Obviously, Manu also has to deal with taking a last minute shot after our PG dribbled for 20 seconds without being able to score...

like if manu needed someone to take a desperate step back 3 pts shot.... and i guess some of those pass could bring to some wide open 3 for manu too.

Overall, Manu is looking to pass more than to score more. It didn't used to be like that when he was more athletic, but the last few seasons, as his PG role increased, he's been passing more/better.

he's not passing more nor better. he has always passed enough for me. Manu, as tony, is one of our main offensive weapons. i'm OK with him taking shots.

It's the same for three years now. People dream of of very smooth offense where every player will have the same amount of shots and with ten players scoring in double figure. Then come the hard games and the PO, and everyone realize that Mason, Hill, Bonner and even Dice, Blair and RJ this year, are not the players Tim, manu and tony are on offense.

Kobe, you know the leading scorer from the last year champion, take many shots which would be called desperate or ball hogging for any decent players. but he's Kobe and it's what make his team win even if he had to find a balance too in his choices.

I'm not saying that the motion offense couldn't be useful to everyone, stars and role player. i'm not saying it's a good thing to have many weapons when the opponent is focusing on the stars. but stars are the ones who need to have the ball in their hands because they're the ones able to score when the pressure is here.

[Flux451]

Maybe RJ can take the off bench duties and lead the second squad. Let Manu in the starting 5 with Tim and TD + Dice, let RJ dominate the second unit with George and Blair.

This iswhat i was preaching after the Toronto and dallas wins. A littledifferent but, I liketheidea of
starting: Parker, Hill, Bogans, Dice, Timmy
second unit: Hill, Manu, Jefferson, Blair, Dice

[ElNono]

It's the same for three years now. People dream of of very smooth offense where every player will have the same amount of shots and with ten players scoring in double figure. Then come the hard games and the PO, and everyone realize that Mason, Hill, Bonner and even Dice, Blair and RJ this year, are not the players Tim, manu and tony are on offense.

But it hasn't been. Last year it was entirely legitimate for Tony to 'take over', because TD was limping around and Manu was out.
But both RJ and Dice this year are legitimate NBA players that average double figures on their careers. That's exactly why they were brought in.

Kobe, you know the leading scorer from the last year champion, take many shots which would be called desperate or ball hogging for any decent players. but he's Kobe and it's what make his team win even if he had to find a balance too in his choices.

It's actually interesting you bring Kobe, because he has become a much better player since his assists have gone up and his shot attempts went down. Ask any Laker fan out there, and they'll tell you that the nights that Kobe is taking too many shots spell trouble for them.
Obviously, now that Gasol is out, he's taking a higher load, which makes sense, just as much as it made sense when TP had nobody else to play with.

I'm not saying that the motion offense couldn't be useful to everyone, stars and role player. i'm not saying it's a good thing to have many weapons when the opponent is focusing on the stars. but stars are the ones who need to have the ball in their hands because they're the ones able to score when the pressure is here.

Stars also need to be smart. That's why Tim doesn't force shots over double or triple teams at the end of games. He prefers to win than to be the hero. That's exactly how role players like Kerr, Horry and Bowen looked insanely great out there.
Now, I'll be the first to tell you that what has me more worried for this season is Tim not being able to command those double teams anymore. Tony getting his or not is really a secondary concern.

[anonoftheinternets]

it will work, once tony understands how rj likes his balls ..

[anonoftheinternets]

^ enough with the gay RJ jokes .... its not funny anymore ... (angry poster 2)

[SA210]

This has been my concern since the Spurs traded for RJ- he needs a different kind of PG to succeed.

Like Manu

[lennyalderette]

what? copy paste or what!!!

[Phenomanul]

Give them time. Actually Parker is pretty suited to play with RJ because they both like to run and they both can finish. Parker hasn't played with many players that can run with him, so it will take time to adjust.

Is it just me or have there been a couple of alley-oop opportunities for RJ that have been overlooked on account of the ball-handlers' unfamiliarity with his predilections???

[TheSpursFNRule]

Fact is they have to exist together...we all know RJ will not be coming off the bench with the 2nd unit. No way can I see that happening.