One More Step in the attempt to ban Exotic Pets

[byrontx]

For a few species, however, larger areas of the continental United States appear to exhibit suitable climatic conditions. For example, much of the southern U.S. climatic conditions are similar to those experienced by the Burmese python in its native range. However, many factors other than climate alone can influence whether a species can establish a population in a particular location, the report notes.

http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=2324

Snakes are not companions; they are creatures that belong in their place not stuck in a cage. Ban 'em.

[coyotes_geek]

Thanks for pointing this out. If people want to keep exotic pets, and are treating them humanely, I don't see why they shouldn't be able to.

My libertarian side wants to agree with this, but then I've got a friend who runs a shelter for exotic pets that have been abused or abandoned. Whether the actual bill being discussed goes to far or not I don't know, but conceptually I'm not opposed to government making these pets harder for people to get.

[TheProfessor]

It's a Florida issue, not a Federal issue.

Burmese pythons directly impact a national park and several species under the Endangered Species Act living there. Exotics are a part of interstate commerce that rakes in quite a bit of money (you being a prime example). Talk about scope of the legislation all you want, but it's a federal problem.

[mogrovejo]

I don't know the answer to that...but I think that woman had more right to have a face than that idiot had to own a chimp.


So how about make them legal, if their pet kill someone else, they get the death penalty for it?

Does that work?

Personally I'm opposed to death penalty, but I think that's another whole different issue. I'm not in favour of prohibiting the ownership guns but using guns to kill people should be penalized, sure. I don't see the rationale for the legal frame to be any different than the one to non-exotic animals.

Is there such a big problem with exotic pets killing people? If I had to guess I'd say that dogs kill more people than exotic pets put together.

Actually, that would be the commerce clause.

Woudn't that give the Congress the power to regulate commerce of animals and not their ownership?

[RoyerReptiles]

On the profit subject: You have to look at the group of "scientists" and "experts" that are feeding this information to the media, senator Nelson, the rest of the Senators, etc. etc. They are the same group of people that have been "running" the removal of the invasive Brown tree snake in Guam. In short, the Brown tree snake was brought to Guam during the second World War on Military transports and has been eradicating rare birds in Guam. The U.S. government has spent millions of dollars at the request of the "experts" over there, yet the population hasn't been brought down, in fact, Guam has some of the densest populations of snakes in the world. The "experts" from Guam have learned how to receive millions of dollars for this, and they are working hard to bring that money to Florida. So is Senator Nelson. The everglades project was a multibillion dollar restoration project years ago, but funding has slowed considerably. By making this a national problem, the flood gates will open and money will flow a lot more freely again.

And Byrontx, I have to question why you would be so easily swayed into banning something like that, without taking into account all of the people whose lives would be destroyed. That's right, destroyed. It's a dream of many people to be able to live their lives freely and un-impeded by the government, to pursue happiness, and you are willing to just throw that word around so freely. Ban 'em. Very ignorant on the subject. There are thousands of people in this country now who own businesses that deal exclusively in products that either support boas/pythons or breed them to sell to people like me, people that are fascinated by them, and love them. It's unfortunate that so many people are willing to just say "ban 'em" so freely. I don't know what you are into, but maybe I'll try an example. Let's say you love hot rods. You have a 69 camaro that's just cherry. But since the government is trying to go "green", they get to a point where your car is considered not "eco" friendly, and you have to turn your car in. They ban it. That would suck for all the old car people, and small steps were taken towards that recently with the "cash for clunkers" program.

And you can't tell me that the USGS, (G being for "geological") survey actually swayed you. A LONG list of scientist wiped their ass with that piece of work, calling it unscientific. Here's the quote:


“It is a misrepresentation to call the USGS do ent ‘scientific’” stated the scientists. “As written, this [USGS] do ent is not suitable as the basis for legislative or regulatory policies, as its content is not based on best science practices, it has not undergone external peer-review, and it diverts attention away from the primary concern. We encourage the USFWS and USGS to submit this do ent to an independent body for proper and legitimate peer review. Additionally, we encourage the Committee to review this do ent, not as an authoritative scientific publication, but rather as a report currently drafted to support a predetermined policy”.

And here's the list of scientists that signed the letter sent to Congress:

Elliott Jacobson, MS, DVM, PhD, Dipl. ACZM
Professor of Zoological Medicine
University of Florida

Dale DeNardo, DVM, PhD
Associate Professor School of Life Sciences
Arizona State University

Paul M. Gibbons, DVM, MS, Dipl. ABVP (Avian)
President-Elect, Association of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians
Interim Regent, Reptiles & Amphibians, American Board of Veterinary Prac ioners
Director, Exotic Species Specialty Service
Animal Emergency Center and Specialty Services

Chris Griffin, DVM, Dipl. ABVP (Avian)
President, Association of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians
Owner and Medical Director
Griffin Avian and Exotic Veterinary Hospital

Brady Barr, PhD
Resident Herpetologist
National Geographic Society
Endangered Species Coalition of the Council of State Governments
Crocodilian Specialist Group

Warren Booth, PhD
Invasive Species Biologist
Research Associate
North Carolina State University
Director of Science
United States Association of Reptile Keepers

Ray E. Ashton, Jr.
President
Ashton Biodiversity Research & Preservation Ins ute

Robert Herrington, PhD
Professor of Biology
Georgia Southwestern State University

Douglas L. Hotle
Curator of Herpetology/Conservation/Research
Natural Toxins Research Center
Texas A&M University

Francis L. Rose (Retired) , B.S., M.S. (Zoology), PhD (Zoology)
Professor Emeritus
Texas State University

Edward J. Wozniak DVM, PhD
Regional Veterinarian
Zoonosis Control Division
Texas Department of State Health Services

Why take away something, a FREEDOM, a right, away from Americans based on junk science?

[Bender]

I don't know what you are into, but maybe I'll try an example. Let's say you love hot rods. You have a 69 camaro that's just cherry. But since the government is trying to go "green", they get to a point where your car is considered not "eco" friendly, and you have to turn your car in. They ban it. That would suck for all the old car people, and small steps were taken towards that recently with the "cash for clunkers" program.

spot on. It's a slippery slope. They ban something you don't really care about, then tomorrow they ban something you do care about.

Until someday you can't really do anything, other than sit in front of your big screen TV and get spoon-fed some MSM. Oh, wait, aren't they trying to ban big screen TVs in CA now...?

[mogrovejo]

I agree with the previous 2 posts.

If the commerce of ownership of exotic pets produce negative externalities, than prove that existence, calculate the value and apply a reasonable Pigovian Tax.

[DarkReign]

Exotic pet owners can join the ever-expanding list of Americans who have their rights as human beings trounced on by government, whether local, state or federal.

Smokers
Obese people
Exotic pet owners
Torrent users
[insert future member here]

[EmptyMan]

That logic has worked out great with zebra clams, kudzu, and snake-fish.

ah, that's the name of it.

[TheProfessor]

Woudn't that give the Congress the power to regulate commerce of animals and not their ownership?

In the aggregate, those purchasing exotic animals would be said to have a substantial effect on interstate commerce under current SC precedent.

[jacobdrj]

That logic has worked out great with zebra clams, kudzu, and snake-fish.

How do you figure?

They invaded. You can't un-invade them. They are a part of the eco system. The strong will survive. Change is a constant. People like things to stay stagnant, but the reality is there is nothing you can do at this point to make everything the way it was. The best thing you can do it learn to cope, as the environment will eventually on its own.

[admiralsnackbar]

How do you figure?

They invaded. You can't un-invade them. They are a part of the eco system. The strong will survive. Change is a constant. People like things to stay stagnant, but the reality is there is nothing you can do at this point to make everything the way it was. The best thing you can do it learn to cope, as the environment will eventually on its own.

Precisely because you can't "uninvade" species, the logic seems to be that you can prevent or slow down invasions so they don't catastrophically impact economies and ecosystems. By the same token, however, I don't see the value in a straight ban since it'll only drive the trade of animals into unregulated underground markets, which is almost certainly more dangerous.

++++++++++

EDIT: I'm still curious who profits from this bill. Law enforcement, maybe? Anyone else?

++++++++++++

EDIT 2: nm, just saw your reply.

[jacobdrj]

Precisely because you can't "uninvade" species, the logic seems to be that you can prevent or slow down invasions so they don't catastrophically impact economies and ecosystems. By the same token, however, I don't see the value in a straight ban since it'll only drive the trade of animals into unregulated underground markets, which is almost certainly more dangerous.

I am not quite following your point. If a species has already invaded, what difference does it make to bring in more? If the ecosystem can support more, they will breed themselves.

I guess if people care about these invasions they have the right to burn their money any way they choose, but it just seems like a waste of time and effort to me.

[admiralsnackbar]

I am not quite following your point. If a species has already invaded, what difference does it make to bring in more? If the ecosystem can support more, they will breed themselves.

In an ultimate sense, I agree with you. But slowing down the rate at which an invasive species takes over an ecosystem/economy buys people time to plan against/adapt to, changes. 30 rogue pythons will take over a given landmass much quicker than 10 regulated ones.... see what I'm saying?

[jacobdrj]

Well put. Excellent point.

[Blake]

Exotic pet owners can join the ever-expanding list of Americans who have their rights as human beings trounced on by government, whether local, state or federal.

Smokers
Obese people
Exotic pet owners
Torrent users
[insert future member here]

what rights have been trounced on in regards to smokers and obese people?

[Blake]

Personally I'm opposed to death penalty, but I think that's another whole different issue. I'm not in favour of prohibiting the ownership guns but using guns to kill people should be penalized, sure. I don't see the rationale for the legal frame to be any different than the one to non-exotic animals.

Is there such a big problem with exotic pets killing people? If I had to guess I'd say that dogs kill more people than exotic pets put together.

I'm betting the python bill is getting attention because of the young girl that was killed by a Burmese python some months ago.

[Blake]

o Everyone,

I don't post that often here, but I really would like to let everyone know what's going on right now with the latest Laws/bans and exotic animals.

A few months back exotic pet owners nationwide came together to block a bill that the government tried to pass (HR669) that would have made it illegal to own just about any exotic animal. That would have included parakeets, goldfish, hamsters, ball pythons....you get the idea.

Well, they haven't stopped. The Humane Society of the United States and PETA are still at work, and they still want to take away everyone's exotics, but they are working to do it one step at a time. The latest step is S373, a.k.a. the Python ban. As currently written, S373 would ban all species of python, including the ball python, which of course is the most popular pet snake in the industry. HSUS is also working to have the boa constrictor added to the fray. This bill will have far reaching effects, since the industry has grown leaps and bounds over the years. Thousands of businesses have come up due to the breeding/selling of all sorts of supplies/cages, animals, etc. and this bill will put a LOT of people out of work, not to mention it will bankrupt thousands of families who have invested many thousands of dollars in this hobby/industry. My wife and I ourselves have close to 100,000 dollars invested in our collection, and with this bill it would all be gone overnight. The bill is based on junk science, all of course used to sensationalize something that will be a cash cow for some as well as finally meet the goals of HSUS to take more animals out of the hands of the owners who love and care for them.

We in the industry need your help. We in the hobby need your help. Please check out the links below, and help us fight to keep our rights. This will not end with pythons and boas everyone. It's just one step. They have tried to take away all exotics once before, and they won't stop unless we all come together and do something.

Thank you for your time.

Jason Royer.

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1765890,1765890

and some information pertaining to the Burmese pythons in the everglades:

http://www.vpi.com/sites/vpi.com/fil...compressed.pdf

http://www.royerreptiles.com/RoyerReptiles.html

how much cash cow will you lose if the bill passes?

how much does one of your ball pythons cost?

[DarkReign]

what rights have been trounced on in regards to smokers and obese people?

The rights of private property ownership. Right of an adult establishment to cater to adults.

Obese people...eh, not so much a right per say, but affordable healthcare. Guy I work with had to go to the doctor yesterday for a physical because his wife's insurance requires a full physical to gauge blood pressure, heart rate and your BMI as cost indicators.

I should say I predict obese people will be added to that list soon for some other equally ridiculous reason.

[byrontx]

On the profit subject: You have to look at the group of "scientists" and "experts" that are feeding this information to the media, senator Nelson, the rest of the Senators, etc. etc. They are the same group of people that have been "running" the removal of the invasive Brown tree snake in Guam. In short, the Brown tree snake was brought to Guam during the second World War on Military transports and has been eradicating rare birds in Guam. The U.S. government has spent millions of dollars at the request of the "experts" over there, yet the population hasn't been brought down, in fact, Guam has some of the densest populations of snakes in the world. The "experts" from Guam have learned how to receive millions of dollars for this, and they are working hard to bring that money to Florida. So is Senator Nelson. The everglades project was a multibillion dollar restoration project years ago, but funding has slowed considerably. By making this a national problem, the flood gates will open and money will flow a lot more freely again.

And Byrontx, I have to question why you would be so easily swayed into banning something like that, without taking into account all of the people whose lives would be destroyed. That's right, destroyed. It's a dream of many people to be able to live their lives freely and un-impeded by the government, to pursue happiness, and you are willing to just throw that word around so freely. Ban 'em. Very ignorant on the subject. There are thousands of people in this country now who own businesses that deal exclusively in products that either support boas/pythons or breed them to sell to people like me, people that are fascinated by them, and love them. It's unfortunate that so many people are willing to just say "ban 'em" so freely. I don't know what you are into, but maybe I'll try an example. Let's say you love hot rods. You have a 69 camaro that's just cherry. But since the government is trying to go "green", they get to a point where your car is considered not "eco" friendly, and you have to turn your car in. They ban it. That would suck for all the old car people, and small steps were taken towards that recently with the "cash for clunkers" program.

And you can't tell me that the USGS, (G being for "geological") survey actually swayed you. A LONG list of scientist wiped their ass with that piece of work, calling it unscientific. Here's the quote:


“It is a misrepresentation to call the USGS do ent ‘scientific’” stated the scientists. “As written, this [USGS] do ent is not suitable as the basis for legislative or regulatory policies, as its content is not based on best science practices, it has not undergone external peer-review, and it diverts attention away from the primary concern. We encourage the USFWS and USGS to submit this do ent to an independent body for proper and legitimate peer review. Additionally, we encourage the Committee to review this do ent, not as an authoritative scientific publication, but rather as a report currently drafted to support a predetermined policy”.

And here's the list of scientists that signed the letter sent to Congress:

Elliott Jacobson, MS, DVM, PhD, Dipl. ACZM
Professor of Zoological Medicine
University of Florida

Dale DeNardo, DVM, PhD
Associate Professor School of Life Sciences
Arizona State University

Paul M. Gibbons, DVM, MS, Dipl. ABVP (Avian)
President-Elect, Association of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians
Interim Regent, Reptiles & Amphibians, American Board of Veterinary Prac ioners
Director, Exotic Species Specialty Service
Animal Emergency Center and Specialty Services

Chris Griffin, DVM, Dipl. ABVP (Avian)
President, Association of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians
Owner and Medical Director
Griffin Avian and Exotic Veterinary Hospital

Brady Barr, PhD
Resident Herpetologist
National Geographic Society
Endangered Species Coalition of the Council of State Governments
Crocodilian Specialist Group

Warren Booth, PhD
Invasive Species Biologist
Research Associate
North Carolina State University
Director of Science
United States Association of Reptile Keepers

Ray E. Ashton, Jr.
President
Ashton Biodiversity Research & Preservation Ins ute

Robert Herrington, PhD
Professor of Biology
Georgia Southwestern State University

Douglas L. Hotle
Curator of Herpetology/Conservation/Research
Natural Toxins Research Center
Texas A&M University

Francis L. Rose (Retired) , B.S., M.S. (Zoology), PhD (Zoology)
Professor Emeritus
Texas State University

Edward J. Wozniak DVM, PhD
Regional Veterinarian
Zoonosis Control Division
Texas Department of State Health Services

Why take away something, a FREEDOM, a right, away from Americans based on junk science?

Royer, I will qualify my statement about banning them. If you want to raise them as a food source to recover your investment I am fine with that but as long as they can get in the hands of an irresponsible that will release them into environments they are not native to, I have a problem with that. Come up with any type of solution that addresses that (mandatory sterilization for purchasers not having a breeder's license) and I am fine with it.

The whole "Big Government" argument does not carry a lot of weight with me. Until we can breed people to be smarter and more responsible I am all for using government regulations where necessary to keep them in line. You may be one of those smarter and more responsible types but a of a lot of people aren't.

[Blake]

The rights of private property ownership. Right of an adult establishment to cater to adults.

not really. Smoking is a health issue to others in establishment where the act of smoking is not what the premises is meant to be used for.

/hijack

[byrontx]

I occupy an unique environmental niche myself; I am willing to listen to an opposing view and change my mind if new facts indicate I should. I couldn't make it as a politician, I guess, because I would be known as a "flopper." After reading this:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0002931

I am less concerned about the spread/invasion of these large reptiles but I am still inclined towards sterilized snakes at retail level (I advocate that for other pets, too).

Okay, here's the change: No ban-more control.

[BacktoBasics]

No question dogs are responsible for more needless deaths than any 5 exotics combined. For the ones mouthing off in here against this guys plight are you as willing to ban domestic cats and dogs?

[Blake]

No question dogs are responsible for more needless deaths than any 5 exotics combined. For the ones mouthing off in here against this guys plight are you as willing to ban domestic cats and dogs?

how many needless deaths are due to domestic cats or chihuahuas?

[BacktoBasics]

how many needless deaths are due to domestic cats or chihuahuas?

How many deaths are due to grass snakes and hamsters?