The Death of Detroit

[Winehole23]

Now...now I have to make a decision. Become what you hate/detest/wish death upon or walk away.

True, but in a way this is trivial.

Well, not trivial exactly, but it is a commonplace. In a way, each one of us fights this battle everyday.

I wouldn't presume to give you advice, DR it sounds like a more literal, more everyday struggle for you.

But I would say this: there's always something you can do for money. But the money won't buy you any of the time back.

Honestly, because I hate most of you almost as much as I hate my government, this is a tough decision.

Love the honesty.

[Marcus Bryant]

As much as we try to find significant differences between the two parties, there are none. There's a reason this nation was able to swing from electing (allegedly) a conservative Republican to electing one of the more liberal Democrats in the Senate to the Presidency within a four year span. That's due to the fact that there is little difference between the two parties, save for social issues, or rather, the image each party portrays.

Real differences do not exist. What matters is the score. Politics are nothing more than a spectator sport. Just as one might have a NFL team, NBA, MLB, NCAAF, etc...so they have a political team. Do they know anything about that team's history? Do they know anything about the game? Does that matter? All that matters is who wins.

[boutons_deux]

"significant differences between the two parties"

false, Gore and the Dems would not have been captive of the neo-c*nts and not invaded Iraq, which is a huge negative and will be for many years

But I agree that both parties are captured by the corporations.

[Ignignokt]

I hope I didnt come across as saying that the video isnt true, because it is, but omission on the part of journalism is a tacit sin, no matter how low rate said journalist is.

It means one of two things.

Person is ignorant, therefore not worth listening to for any length of time about anything.

Or this person is disingenuous, therefore this person is trying to change political thinking by way of subtle manipulation of facts and presentation.

You decide.



I am not sure if this is sarcasm or not, but I am leaning toward you being serious.

No. I'm serious.. I'm leaning now towards free trade being a hinderance towards our future.

What is the solution to stopping outsourcing?

[SouthernFried]

"protectionism" was the evil byword of the last 30 yrs. I've always been a "protectionist" by their own definition I guess. That being...

...If you make American companies abide by myriads of regulations, wage regulations, pollution controls, handicap reg's, etc..etc...etc...all which add to the cost of doing business here...

...then you MUST protect those companies from foreign countries that DO NOT have those extra regulations imposed on their business's...or lose that business.

It's been happening since the 60's. It's continued to happen thru the 70's-80's-90's, until now. ALL that time "protectionism" was a bad word. ALL that time we were losing companies and business. ALL that time idiots were blaming business for leaving, without regard to the underlying causes. ALL that time people were saying, "We need to raise min. wage, put on more regulations and restrictions, tax 'obscene' profits, protect the environment more, demand better health bene's and good retirement plans...and if American biz can't compete with foreign companies that don't have to do any of that, well too damn bad...I want cheap products."

Protecting American business was considered obscene...still is in way too many fools minds.

They're willing to protect the countries borders against foreign attacks, but not American biz against foreign attacks.

Way too late now. Nothing left to protect. Trade treaties should have always been treated like defense treaties. To protect America.

"But...But...prices would have went sky high"

Would they?

Another discussion...

And not everything to do with Detroit either, but significant enough to be a factor.

[Marcus Bryant]

"significant differences between the two parties"

false, Gore and the Dems would not have been captive of the neo-c*nts and not invaded Iraq, which is a huge negative and will be for many years

But I agree that both parties are captured by the corporations.

So there's a difference, but there isn't, but there is. Whatever, chump.

[Winehole23]

Chomp.

[Winehole23]

[boutons_deux]

MB, do you think the Dems would have lied their way into Iraq?

or tried to privatize SocSec?

or let entice US corps to repatatriate $300B overseas profits with a 5% income tax (instead of 35%?)

While both parties are captured and corrupted by corporate money, the Repugs are vastly more business-friendly and not at all interested in governing, as 2000-2008 demonstrated clearly.

[boutons_deux]

"Protecting American business was considered obscene"

American businesses don't want to be protected, only labor does.

American corps are quite happy making $Bs playing Wall St casino (a lot of companies return as much or more in finance games than in real economy production), or buying from overseas rather than making domestically.

American companies are also saddled with a huge albatross of health care, which single-payer, govt-insurance would remove.

[admiralsnackbar]

Came in late, but I just wanted to tell DR that I applaud his honesty, and that I agree with his points -- even when they lapse into abject nihilism.

[Marcus Bryant]

Do I think a Democrat administration would have ordered the invasion of Iraq? Considering the administration prior to Bush père's had no problem rattling the saber at Hussein, and in light of the fact that despite the current WH occupant's apparent inability to follow through on ending, or at least scaling down the state's current military adventures, yes.

[DarkReign]

Real differences do not exist. What matters is the score. Politics are nothing more than a spectator sport. Just as one might have a NFL team, NBA, MLB, NCAAF, etc...so they have a political team. Do they know anything about that team's history? Do they know anything about the game? Does that matter? All that matters is who wins.

Thats a waaaaaaay better analogy than my stupid quadriplegics bit.

[DarkReign]

No. I'm serious.. I'm leaning now towards free trade being a hinderance towards our future.

What is the solution to stopping outsourcing?

This is where I get wtfpwnd by just about every armchair economist on this board (morojevo, RG, Im looking at you).

I despise money and the people who manipulate it, but I have a rudimentary understanding of the basics.

To me, lowly DR, I have a divergent philosophy from the reigning corporate atmosphere that pervades and dominates the entire scope of American operation. I do not envy the rich and I do not hate them. I think no company should ever be so large as to affect the entire economic system, I think corporations should not have legal personhood, I think corporations should not be allowed to contribute to any political campaign ever, I think corporations who incorporate here in the United States, with all the inherent advantages this provides, are subject to the laws and governing of the United States tax code here and abroad.

Let me explain...

It is my belief corporations are the end-all, be-all of everything thats wrong with out country. There may be some periphery issues that are byproducts of a corporate controlled society, but more or less, remove corporations all-encompassing influence and the nation would be far, FAR healthier for it.

IMO (and this entire post is an opinion), the modern day economic believers will tell you different. They are much like climate change scientists...theyve banked their existence on this form of economic interpretation and any idea that flys in the face of the status quo is heresy.

Like Protectionism.

Protectionism is blamed in part or in whole for just about every war and great economic downturn throughout modern history.

Which is true...when you only consider Europe as a test bed for it. Of course a continent the size of Europe, being composed of countries with completely different cultures, languages and history that are no larger than some of our States, sharing borders with hated, historical enemies or being landlocked by more prosperous neighbors...all of these factors contribute to an accepted idiom like the one posted in this thread that went something like...

"If goods/trade do not cross borders, armies will."

I couldnt agree more...when talking about Europe or other similarly situated civilizations living in such close proximity to diametrically opposed neighbors who even have a vested interest in your downfall as to even help it along if they could.

First, not every Euro country has an adundance of natural resource. Not every country has oil on the continent, not every country has timber (ask England), or rubber trees, or natural gas, etc, etc, etc.

In their situation (this is hypothetical, Ive done no research), when youre France staring at Germany with a wealth of resource and production, with the histories of your two countries, you start to covet thy neighbor's wealth. And this is exactly what trade is...what value do you assign to the goods or services of another? If the price of a needed good is too high by standard (costs too much to pipe gas from one to the other) or by artificial means (I dont ing like you so I will sell you my monopolized goods at exorbitant prices), then the aquisition of those goods and resource becomes a means for war.

This is the history of Europe in a nuts . Whether it was a monopoly on thought and belief or a monopoly of resource and industry, Europe is a self-loathing cesspool of cultural intolerance and endless conflict.

For us in the United States? Not so ing much.

We are extremely resource rich...ridiculously so. What we need from the world we can trade at fair for with no ill will between trading parties, living a peaceful existence without the need for global economic interest.

Ahhh, but this is where things change. Corporations.

Corporations have every incentive you can name to exploit...profit. One word, one meaning, millions of implications. Profit is not a bad thing when done on the proper scale, it is a mutually beneficial operative. But done on a massive scale, spanning a global empire, the corporation's interests become the nation's.

When we allow corporations to elect our government literally wholesale via political contributions and worse yet, political fund-raising events that cir vent the allowable contribution amount via private donations from head of industry, we turn our national interests over to people whose sole goal is profit. Unending, ever-expanding profit. To stop growing is to die in the corporate, publicly-traded world. If you arent climbing, youre falling. Stagnation has no place in the market because the market is no place for stagnation.

America does not spend as much as it does on the military to protect its citizens from outside threats, we spend as much as we do to protect and intimidate on behalf of the global corporate interests in our country. This is the truth, there is no interpretation otherwise, end of ing discussion. This is not a debate and it is not an opinion. Our military has to be everywhere all the time because our corporations are allowed to be everywhere, all the time.

Africa, East Asia, South America (not so much anymore, we just own their governments), Middle America. All places our corporations exploit everyday for profit.

As it were, these truths make it so we the people are just a necessary evil to government and corporate society, a resource if you will that needs an extra layer of attendance.

And just like every other resource they exploit, they need to create dependency. The Malaysian workers who thread every fabric consumed in America are dependent on those jobs because their country is broke and offers nothing in exchange (with a complicit government in bed with the American corporations). Same thing in Africa and the diamond trade. Diamonds, it turns out, are not very precious stones. They are common and in ample supply. Well, we cant have a flooded market of diamonds, now could we? No, too much money would be lost if such a thing happened, so we keep the continent in turmoil, paying who-the- -ever is in charge this week to allow the strip miners to continue operation; warlords, serial killers, genocidal maniacs, money has no conscience. All in an effort to keep diamond and gold prices extremely high by artificially keeping supply low.

Same with oil only different interests exist here (OPEC, government taxation, commodities market inflation, etc).

We are slaves to them, we have entire college curriculum centered around their game, churning out otherwise intelligent students with de facto thinking about the economic realities of our world, as if these are things we cannot change and that any thinking otherwise is a dreamer's remorse.

I say bullocks. Things are this way because we allow them to be, because we allow ourselves to be manipulated by our perceived superiors. In the past, our superiors were royal Monarchs by birthright...then there were the moral superiors, our church authorities...during this time, there wasnt a clear line who was more powerful, the Monarch or the Church. Over time, both dissipated in strength and power only to be replaced by the modern authority, money.

Money is our authority these days. Whomever has the most, has the power. Whether this wealthy en y is a person, place or thing is of no consequence. Could be a country, could be a corporation, could be a bank or a person or a combination of any, no matter.

And its a brilliant scheme, really. You create a commonly accepted form of wealth that everyone can potentially have, then create rules and regulations surrounding its use that benefits those with the most of it.

I dare say these practices are brilliant on behalf of those who stand to benefit, too bad I am not one of them.

[...I have to go, might complete this thought later...]

[Marcus Bryant]

DR, essentially what you are pointing out is that there is a real cost to the populace due to maximizing certain economic measures. And that cost is borne differently within our society. For the upper middle class and above, the last three decades or so have been grand. Not so for everyone else.

Or, there are political realities just as there are economic ones. The Free Trade gospel glosses over the costs of adjustment in lieu of the grand consumerist benefits to follow. Naturally, realities such as the Chinese not allowing the yuan to appreciate and the transition from higher-paying manufacturing employment to lower paying service employment are dismissed.

Yes, this country is owned by those corps. They even enjoy Bill of Rights protections. Again, the Germanization of the Cons ution has produced certain economic wonders, at least for a while, but it doesn't seem to lead to heaven here on Earth, but rather gradual enslavement.

[DarkReign]

In that entire rant, I never addressed the answer "How to fix it?"

Simple. Tax and tariff the living out of everything isnt produced inside our borders. Equal the cost of doing business inside our own borders versus being done and shipped here, tax the payroll of outsourced business, force businesses to pay Social Security, Medicare, FUTA, etc on their foreign workers.

Instead of the current system which creates incentive for industry to outsource, create a disincentive and make it so any talk of moving their means of production out of the country a very weighed decision.

because right now, it isnt much of a ing decision. Our government's tax policy and corporate fillating literally beg industry to leave our country.

ing think about that for a moment.

Our American government ins utes policies that create incentive for American companies to take jobs elsewhere.

If that isnt evidence that our government is a corporate shill, I dont know what is.

Answer: Limited Protectionism. Level the playing field and I'd love to see someone send "armies across our border" because we dont openly trade (even none of those bas s do, either. America subsidizes the world, its time that stopped).

ing ridiculous.

[rjv]

You know, Ive done this conversation before and I tire of it. It seems to be, IMO, that nearly all of you ing dumb Americans are brainwashed, corporate stooges who seriously think this system of business is the best in the world and that anyone who questions it is a socialist.

Its much like smoking being banned on private property and local oppressive gun laws, none of this bothers you because it doesnt apply to you. You have videos like the one in the OP that completely ignore other, equal reasons in an effort to indoctrinate the trained American monkey to spew at first blush of disagreement.

This entire society has been reduced to parroting morons more inclined to worship and parody the death of their brethren than restrict their taskmasters. You are all incurably suffering from Stockholm Syndrome and it shows every time you speak. I dont much care whether this fact offends you or what political vibration you would like to assign my thinking to because clearly, your opinion means absolutely nothing to me.

I would just as soon watch 30% of the population veer their car into a bottomless ravine than listen to them breathe. You are all completely worthless pieces of matter floating around the airspace, sucking and consuming the very life that surrounds in an effort to appease an idealized authority with no eye for you or your family.

The bottom line, if there is any justice in the universe to be had at all, is that you are most assuredly next.

I am most often speechless in the face of everyday citizens actually defending corporate society as a virtue of the American system. Its a simple mechanism of manipulation with you nitwits.

Youre jealous. Extremely jealous of the rich. Instead of hating them or being neutral, you envy them. This envy distorts your view of their progression and importance.

Nike, Microsoft, General Motors, Phizer, etc are no more important to this country than you are...they just have all the money, which makes them more important to the government than you and all of us combined.

Until Americans come to this realization as a whole, we are doomed and this fact depresses me to no end because I am sure that I am right.

I sincerely hope everyone of you bas s, every...single...one, have a Merry ing Christmas.

a great speech and there are plenty of excellent points i agree with (short of the excessive existential angst) but also one that makes me wonder if i'll ever be saying to CNN one day: "we all knew he would go on a shooting spree one day...."

[SouthernFried]

Our American government ins utes policies that create incentive for American companies to take jobs elsewhere.

If that isnt evidence that our government is a corporate shill, I dont know what is.

You were close till you got here.

You would have to assume that American Corporations WANT to leave the country, to jump to the conclusion that the govt is creating policies and incentives for them to do it.

In my experience, and I do have a little in this area, Corporations don't want to leave the country at all...they are being forced to by those policies and/or lack thereof.

Corporations react to the decisions made in DC...always have. They have to, to survive. Believe me, if those DC decisions made it possible to survive in the US...they would much rather be here, than over there.

[Winehole23]

(short of the excessive existential angst)

Morning cup of joe for DR.

but also one that makes me wonder if i'll ever be saying to CNN one day: "we all knew he would go on a shooting spree one day...."

Eh, I doubt it. I worry more about repressed, angry introverts.

[Winehole23]

Corporations react to the decisions made in DC...always have.

When their lobbyists do not write the bills themselves, you mean?

[SouthernFried]

When their lobbyists do not write the bills themselves, you mean?

Is there some corporate lobbyist writing a bill somewhere?

I know a few who would like to...so they wouldn't have to leave the country as well.

[Winehole23]

Is there some corporate lobbyist writing a bill somewhere?

You've gotta be kidding me, SF. What are lobbyists for?

[Winehole23]

I know a few who would like to...so they wouldn't have to leave the country as well.

I wasn't aware lobbying was being outsourced to other countries, or that the lobby was shrinking.

[SouthernFried]

You've gotta be kidding me, SF. What are lobbyists for?

Lobbyists, lobby. They don't write bills.

Private Lobbyists will prolly have to leave the country as well. I mean, what's the point of trying to lobby a bill...when the govt lobby can come in and just buy it outright.

"You don't want to vote for this bill? Here's 10 billion dollars."

Ah, Private lobbyists are a dying breed. Can't compete with govt in this either.

Maybe China, eh?

[admiralsnackbar]

In that entire rant, I never addressed the answer "How to fix it?"

Simple. Tax and tariff the living out of everything isnt produced inside our borders. Equal the cost of doing business inside our own borders versus being done and shipped here, tax the payroll of outsourced business, force businesses to pay Social Security, Medicare, FUTA, etc on their foreign workers.

As deep into China's pockets as we are, this will never happen, alas.