The Death of Detroit

[Winehole23]

Lobbyists, lobby. They don't write bills.

I don't see how this proposition is tenable even for a second.

How else do lobbies obtain favorable language in the political process, without *whispering range access* to the lawmakers they usually also helped elect?

[Marcus Bryant]

This country is a far cry from what was envisioned back in ol' '76. Yes, leftists are off base on many things, but so are conservatives. The Founders didn't risk what they did so that Wal-Mart, GE, et al...would own the government. And LOL at thinking that corps merely react to federal policy. They own it.

But businesses do react. Small businesses. , middle market companies for the most part as well. The Fortune 100 own Uncle Sam and use that to their advantage. There's no better compe ive advantage than when you write the rules.

What amuses me is that conservatives can find plenty of parallels between the leftist movement in these United States and those in Italy, Germany, and the USSR of the 1920s and 30s, but then somehow the connection between that and the neoconservative Cold War movement from the 1950s on is ignored.

Yeah, I'm all over the board. So ing what? Merry Christmas.

[Wild Cobra]

I hadn't paid attention to this thread. Maybe if I find time, I'll read it.

All I can think of however is Robocop!

[SouthernFried]

Wal-Mart, GE, et al...would own the government. They own it.

Amidst some good stuff, there's always dumb stuff. Today's winner.

But, 'tis the season and all...Merry Christmas to you too

[Marcus Bryant]

Yeah, you'd have to be fairly stupid to believe that isn't the case.

[DarkReign]

SouthernFried,

What makes you think the major corporations of this country do not own our government wholesale?

I am not talking about second tier corps. I speak of the major players of industry and media. GE, Disney, Viacom, Exxon Mobil, WalMart, ING, AIG and to a much lesser extent these days, GM.

You mentioned you have a working knowledge of corporate influence of government, or as you put it, certain corporations interest in having more influence than what we believe.

Before I judge it, I'd like to hear what you mean, if you wish to explain it.

[whottt]

Ultimately that video is accurate...their local government has been Democratic for many decades now. The fall of Detroit is entirely due to the local officials failure to adapt to a changing world and keep the city growing and instead fostering a sense of victimhood and helplessness.

It's got absolutely nothing to do with Republicans.



The Republicans are not the reason Detroit went hole. And it's not anyone's fault but Detroitians that it has gone that way.

And it's getting tier tier the more liberal it gets.

You'd think you guys would mix in a Republican or Indy Mayor once every half a century or so.

That said, if I lived in a city that kept electing such ty local governments, I'd be in favor of ceding my right to self governance(and the blame that goes with it) too.


It's not just Detoit...Manhattan has the greatest wealth stratification in the US, it is the most overwhelmingly Democratic region of the country, in fact, it's the HQ of the Democratic Party.


This is not to say if Detroit had been electing Republicans for the past 50 years it would be the showplace of the US, nor is it my intent to say all Democratic politicians are corrupt and or incompetent......but Detroit definitely shows what a set and unwavering political inclination can do for or should I say, to, you.

It's basically political inbreeding.


In any case, it's not the end of Detroit. Once it get to a certain level of hole it's going to become a bargain to invest in.

In fact, I kinda like the housing prices there...I could actually buy a house there with the money I have made in the stock market since the collapse.

[ElNono]

You can always do what Kwame Kilpatrick did... make your money in Detroit, then retire with your family to Southlake, Texas...

[DarkReign]

The Republicans are not the reason Detroit went hole. And it's not anyone's fault but Detroitians that it has gone that way.

And it's getting tier tier the more liberal it gets.

You'd think you guys would mix in a Republican or Indy Mayor once every half a century or so.

This little bit tells me you know absolutely nothing about Detroit.

When you say things like "you guys", as if you have ever met a person who actually had voting rights in Detroit or lived in the city proper.

Because I dont, nor does one person on this forum, not one. Our parents moved away either before we were born or when we very, very young. In my family's case, my grandparent's moved out of Detroit. That was the last of my family to ever dwell in the 313.

[exstatic]

Because they've been sold on the false idea that conservatives are racist redneck bible-thumpin teabaggers?

If they're not now, they're certainly rushing towards it by purging the party.

[exstatic]

WHere is any evidence that someone would make more from a manufacturing job as opposed to a service job? You are talking about people like they are sheep.

Idiot. Just look at Toyota, a not particularly good paying automotive assembly job, and then look at generic service job on the Riverwalk. The Riverwalk job pays about 33-50% of the manufacturing job.

[exstatic]

There is no way texas would on itself year after year for as long as MI has done. Reason being is our state govt. doesn't work enough to screw us up that bad.

You're naive beyond belief. Rick Perry is in your bed slipping you the hard one RIGHT NOW.

[Blue Jew]

Good thing he filmed that during the day time.

What I don't get many of those homes and buildings in the background have been vacant since the Regan and Bush sr era. This guy makes it sound like Detroit was once Sharer heights Ohio.

He does make many points I can see how our policies in this country look out for the almighty dollar and many unions have ruined jobs for others, but I also see that all the time no matter who is president and in states that are GOP majority.
Remember in California many major corporations shut down or moved like Goodyear and others in the 60s. And is created a major ghetto of black people who were all of a sudden out of work thus the birth the Compton Crip's and Bloods.

it's in this do entary...

[scampers]

My mother grew up in Detroit during the 60's and told me stories of being able to park a high end convertable car with the top down right smack downtown for the day and not having to worry at all about it. She gets depressed every time she drives through Detroit today.

Cleveland is another depressing city to drive through. It always gets to me when I see completely run down, trashed neighborhoods that you KNOW were really nice places to live 30+ years ago.

[Suns Fan]

Doesn't Manny live in Detroit what's his take?

[whottt]

This little bit tells me you know absolutely nothing about Detroit.

When you say things like "you guys", as if you have ever met a person who actually had voting rights in Detroit or lived in the city proper.

I say you guys all the time...I say it for a reason. Whatever you think that statement told you, I can assure you, your conclusion was a bad one.

Because I dont, nor does one person on this forum, not one. Our parents moved away either before we were born or when we very, very young. In my family's case, my grandparent's moved out of Detroit. That was the last of my family to ever dwell in the 313.

I lived in Detroit. Downtown Detroit.

Oops.

My Grandfather, who was born in Grand Rapids, was a chemical engineer who helped construct the wastewater treatment system for Detroit circa 1936-38 or so.


I've got all sort of family ties in Mich..Gerald Ford was a cousin of mine. My ex-wife lives in the upper penninsula as we speak.


However all of that is basically irrelevant...I don't need to have lived in Detroit, nor do I need to have had family that lived there, nor do I need to know someone that has lived there, to make an easily accuarate assessment of why that city is a hole.

And if I am going to seek out an expert opinion...it's not going to be from someone swimming in the , clinging to weight of his own fatalism as if it is a liferaft, I am gonna go seek it from the guy smart enough to not swim in the .


However I don't need to do that...there is pretty much a template for turning a city into a hole, and a perennially Democrat government is a major part of it....


You see, I don't know why poor people who are ty businessmen yet are still smart enough to go to the cheapest store to buy their beer, think the rich people who are good businessmen are going to be too stupid to go by the cheaper beer too...yet for some reason they do.

It's pretty much an ironclad rule that people that think that of the rich people...wind up swimming in their own .

[whottt]

What I don't get many of those homes and buildings in the background have been vacant since the Regan and Bush sr era. This guy makes it sound like Detroit was once Sharer heights Ohio.

He does make many points I can see how our policies in this country look out for the almighty dollar and many unions have ruined jobs for others, but I also see that all the time no matter who is president and in states that are GOP majority.
Remember in California many major corporations shut down or moved like Goodyear and others in the 60s. And is created a major ghetto of black people who were all of a sudden out of work thus the birth the Compton Crip's and Bloods.

it's in this do entary...

Did they mention the fact that Compton also, like Detroit, has had a Democrat government for about 50 years now?




You name me a hole...I'll show you a half century or so of Democrat control.


New Orleans? Yeap.
Washinton DC? Yeap.
Chicago? Yeap.
Detroit? Yeap.


Ironically enough those exact same cities take turns being the murder capital of the US.

New York is another one...when was the only time crime crime showed a significant decrease in New York coinciding with a rise in the quality of life?

When they elected Guilianni, the first Republican Mayor of NYC in 50 years or so.



I have no sympathy for people that elect ty officials because they think they are going to get something free out of the deal. Over and over and over and over again.

All it does is drive the non-dumbasses from those cities. An unerringly perfect brain drain.


And if the US goes that route, I will have no sympathy for the US either. Because all the non-dumbasses will either unite to stop it, leave the country and let it descend into holery, or figure out how to stand upon those swimming in their own .

So I have no sympathy for the state of Michigan, the city of Detroit etc. They are doing it to themselves. If you guys storm your cith halls, and murder your city leaders, you will begin to have my sympathy.


PS: I live in Austin. The most liberal city in the state of Texas. It is easily the most stratified city in this state, with the highest cost of living, the most over inflated real estate values, and it's got the most incompetent city planners in the state...and I can say with all certainty Austin will one day be a hole(for a significant portion of the population).

You pretty much need to take the ky anytime you are trying to park in downtown Austin, because the city and UT, intend to you every which way it is humanly possible to do so.


You are never going to tax away inequality, the rich people will just raise the prices to cover the taxes...or go somewhere else.

[scampers]

Did they mention the fact that Compton also, like

So I have no sympathy for the state of Michigan, the city of Detroit etc. They are doing it to themselves. If you guys storm your cith halls, and murder your city leaders, you will begin to have my sympathy.

This isn't all about Government. A good bit, yes, but not all. Michigan was built on manufacturing. Manufacturing is the ONLY reason there is any kind of dense population in the state. When the manufacturing industry went to , so did the state. The dense population that once flourished in the manufacturing industry turned into a bunch of unemployed thugs.

I see it all around Boston, where I live now, as well. A lot of towns around here are full of huge, abandoned mills and shoe factories. Towns with a large amount of these abandoned factories usually have a bunch of ty neighborhoods to go with them.

You can blame this on Government, but make a shout out to the Chinese kids that will work for $.50/hour as well.

[SouthernFried]

I don't blame those chinese kids.

I again blame govt...for not punishing trading with countries that employ child/slave labor. US Trade policies have sucked for a very long time.

Unions helped little as well.

Local/State govt screwed up. US trade policy screwed up. Unions screwed up. GM execs screwed up. Fed govt policies screwed up.

All combined, disaster was inevitable.

The US has not been business freindly for quite a while now. It's not hard to predict what is going to happen.

The real question is...who benefits when business goes under?

No one you say?

look again.

[whottt]

Michigan, Detroit and their Unions at their finest:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...241120838.html


Michigan Forces Business Owners Into Public Sector Unions After hemorrhaging members for decades, labor unions have hit upon a new way to shore up their annual dues revenue..



Mic e Berry runs a private day-care service from her home on the outskirts of this city, the birthplace of General Motors. "The Berry Patch," as she calls the service, features overstuffed purple gorillas, giant cartoon murals, and a playroom covered in Astroturf. Her clients are mostly low-income parents who need child care to keep their jobs in a city that now has a 26% unemployment rate.

Ms. Berry owns her own business—yet the Michigan Department of Human Services claims she is a government employee and union member. The agency thus withholds union dues from the child-care subsidies it sends to her on behalf of her low-income clients. Those dues are funneled to a public-employee union that claims to represent her. The situation is crazy—and it's happening elsewhere in the country.

A year ago in December, Ms. Berry and more than 40,000 other home-based day care providers statewide were suddenly informed they were members of Child Care Providers Together Michigan—a union created in 2006 by the United Auto Workers and the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees. The union had won a certification election conducted by mail under the au es of the Michigan Employment Relations Commission. In that election only 6,000 day-care providers voted. The pro-labor vote turned out.

Many of the state's other 34,000 day-care providers never even realized what was going on. Ms. Berry tells us she was "shocked" to find out she was suddenly in a union. The real dirty work, however, had been done when the state created an "employer" for the union to "organize" against.

Of course, Michigan's independent day-care providers don't work for anybody except the parents who were their customers. Nevertheless, because some of these parents qualified for public subsidies, the Child Care Providers "union" claimed the providers were "public employees."

Michigan's Department of Human Services then teamed with Flint-based Mott Community College to sign an "interlocal agreement" in 2006 establishing a separate government agency called the Michigan Home Based Child Care Council. This council was directed to recommend good child-care practices—and not coincidentally, to serve as a "public employer." Although the council had almost no staff, no control over the state subsidies and no supervision of the providers' daily activities, it became the s corporation against which the union could organize.

Thus the state created an ersatz employer and an ersatz "bargaining unit" against which what was essentially an ersatz union could organize.

Today the Department of Human Services siphons about $3.7 million in annual dues to the union—from the child-care subsidies. The money should be going to home-based day-care providers—themselves not on the high end of the income scale. Ms. Berry now sees money once paid to her go to a union that does little for her. [/b]She says she is "self employed and wants nothing to do with the union."[/b]

The union claims it is working for Ms. Berry and others like her by pressing the legislature to increase child-care payments. But lobbying is not an activity that requires compulsory unionism.

Sherry Loar, who owns a day-care center in Petoskey, Mich., is the lead client in a lawsuit brought against the Department of Human Services in state court by the legal arm of the Michigan-based Mackinac Center, a free-market think tank for whom we work. (Ms. Berry is pe ioning to join the suit.) The case is based on the grounds that state law presumes that no one is subject to public-sector bargaining unless state legislation has made them so, and in this case, there is no legislation—only the flimsy interlocal agreement. "I'm not opposed to unions," Ms. Loar says, "everything has a place. But when we enter my door, this is my home."

The larger question, not part of this lawsuit, is whether this sort of unionization violates the U.S. Cons ution. The freedom of association clause prevents compulsory unionism except, courts have determined, when it is necessary for "labor peace." But in this case, whom would the day-care providers riot against? The parents?

The federal question may be raised soon, as other states have pursued similar unionization schemes over the past decade, primarily at the behest of the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees and the Service Employees International Union, better known as the SEIU. Fourteen states have now enabled home-based day-care providers to be organized into public-employee unions, affecting about 233,000 people. And nine have done so with home health-care providers. The idea to unionize in this way was hatched in California, though ironically Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has vetoed legislation to unionize child-care providers.

It's telling that in several states that have gone down this road, state and federal subsidies are the source of the union dues. In Michigan, the scheme is essentially throwing a cash lifeline to unions like the UAW, which are hemorrhaging members.

There's another, ironic twist to the story in the Great Lakes state. Last month the Michigan Economic Development Corporation granted a for-profit SEIU subsidiary, the SEIU Member Action Service Center, a $2 million refundable tax credit to locate a new business facility in the state that will provide administrative services for the union and other local labor organizations. The subsidy strikes us as inappropriate because it categorized the SEIU subsidiary as a business and occurred just before the 5,000 member SEIU local 517M granted the state wage concessions. Shamelessly, the SEIU requested the credit because Michigan has high labor costs.

Some states are redefining straightforward terms—a union as a business, an employer as an employee—primarily to aid organized labor. This highlights the need to re-examine public-sector collective bargaining. Shielded from market pressures, public employee unions have driven up taxpayer costs for decades. Now labor leaders are shanghaiing entrepreneurs such as Ms. Berry and Ms. Loar into government unions because their clients receive government aid. Who will be next? Grocers? Landlords? Doctors?

Mr. Wright is director of the Mackinac Center Legal Foundation. Mr. Jahr is senior director of communications for the Mackinac Center for Public Policy, a research and educational ins ute headquartered in Midland, Mich.




Now on the one hand, the Union is only siphoning off the government. OTOH, the fact it's formed by the UAW is telling. That piece of is going under and now it's going after babysitters


What's next, allowance money?


I hope you Michiganites sleep well with that fine Govt you have elected for yourself...your tax dollars at work.


And it wasn't like anyone couldn't see the GOVT you had...yet you guys went for the same in the Presidential election.

It's like...the ty city and state govt you have is making things worse, so what do you contribute? You contribute making the Federal Govt just like them.

Why don't you guys just ing secede? No one will stop you. And try to stay in Michigan if you are a Democrat.

No Democrat should be allowed to leave Michigan.


I am sorry, but Michigan is a ing stupid state. Kicking it's own ass. And no doubt it's only going to get stupider with every step until it reaches completely hole status.

The only possible redeeming thing you might have going for you is that your elections are rigged and predetermined...I actually hope that's what it is. That's actually better than if ya'll are actually electing them.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Call me crazy, but detroits downfall began once Berry Gordy uprooted camp.

'being totally serious here.

[Winehole23]

Call me crazy, but detroits downfall began once Berry Gordy uprooted camp.

'being totally serious here.

Gordy sold his interests in Motown Records to MCA and Boston Ventures on June 28, 1988 for $61 million. He also later sold most of his interests in the Jobete publishing concern to EMI Publishing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berry_Gordy

[DarkReign]

I lived in Detroit. Downtown Detroit.

Oops.

My Grandfather, who was born in Grand Rapids, was a chemical engineer who helped construct the wastewater treatment system for Detroit circa 1936-38 or so.


I've got all sort of family ties in Mich..Gerald Ford was a cousin of mine. My ex-wife lives in the upper penninsula as we speak.

Meh, fair enough. But you should know two things very well then. Most individuals who have a seated interest in Detroit do not live in the city. Second, Michigan's economy was/is solely based on manufacturing.

I'll assume you already know that when you say like this...

However all of that is basically irrelevant...I don't need to have lived in Detroit, nor do I need to have had family that lived there, nor do I need to know someone that has lived there, to make an easily accuarate assessment of why that city is a hole.

And if I am going to seek out an expert opinion...it's not going to be from someone swimming in the , clinging to weight of his own fatalism as if it is a liferaft, I am gonna go seek it from the guy smart enough to not swim in the .

It's pretty much an ironclad rule that people that think that of the rich people...wind up swimming in their own .

Move away. Leave your family your friends and your life behind. Its a fair thing to do, but not all of us are broke and cant make it. Moreover, this is beautiful part of the country, I dont want to move away.

The decisions I made in my life have made it most likely that I never have to move. Doesnt make watching your entire area's lifeblood dry up and die any more tolerable. Watch friends you grew up with and family members have to uproot and go some place else they never wanted to or struggle with unemployment, etc. All this only because the world market dictates it this way in the name of profit.

The death of Detroit is the death of Michigan, the death of Michigan is the death of manufacturing in this country (except government contracts), which is by far the most tragic because it implies loss of the middle class and the true beginning of the end of this country, IMO.

Maybe youre right, I am a fatalist. Then again, maybe youre wrong and completely underestimate the implications.

Maybe youre more fatalist than me in wanting the erosion of control a healthy and wealthy middle class provides. Take it for what it is.

[Marcus Bryant]

We feel pity for the slaves of the Chinese state, while not realizing that we're slaves of the American state.

[spursncowboys]

Idiot. Just look at Toyota, a not particularly good paying automotive assembly job, and then look at generic service job on the Riverwalk. The Riverwalk job pays about 33-50% of the manufacturing job.

You ing idiot. bussers aren't the only service jobs. Management, electrician, plumbers, secretaries, entry level.