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What exactly did Phil say when he left the Lakers? I didn't read the book or saw any of the comments from it that I can recall. He probably had the same opinion as me at the time.
Greatest Of All Time? No. No one ever felt Pippen was the greatest of all time even when he was at the top of his game.
Jordan's teams sucked before Pippen arrived. Jordan only started wining when Pippen showed up. So yes, Pippen got a lot of credit for those championships. Not so much that anyone felt he was better than Jordan though.
The Jordan/Pippen dynamic is a lot like the Kobe/Gasol dynamic. Everyone knows Kobe is the man on that team but Gasol is getting lots of love right now. Mark Stein called him the MVP of the season so far. Pippen got similar love when he played and was winning with Jordan.
Last edited by namlook; 01-02-2010 at 09:42 PM.
What exactly did Phil say when he left the Lakers? I didn't read the book or saw any of the comments from it that I can recall. He probably had the same opinion as me at the time
Jordan did have the advantage of 3 years under Dean Smith though. You cannot exclude that experience.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baske...son-book_x.htm
The diary of the 2003-04 season, led The Last Season: A Team in Search of Its Soul, will be released this month. An excerpt of the book will be published in next week's issue of Los Angeles magazine.
"I do know that there were many occasions this year when I felt like there was a psychological war going on between us," Jackson wrote. "Amazingly, we came to a truce, even to a higher level of trust. Ultimately, though, I don't believe we developed enough trust between us to win a championship."
Jackson said the strain between him and Bryant led him to hire a therapist to consult with during the season, according to the Los Angeles Times, which printed excerpts from the magazine article in its Tuesday edition.
Jackson wrote he became so frustrated with Bryant that he told general manager Mitch Kupchak in January, "I won't coach this team next year if he is still here. He won't listen to anyone. I've had it with this kid."
"It's no sweat for me, man," Bryant said. "He's a great coach. I really learned a lot from him and I respect him from that standpoint. But this is a new challenge for me here, so I'm not going to belabor what somebody might say from past events."
Jackson wrote he became so frustrated with Bryant that he told general manager Mitch Kupchak in January: "I won't coach this team next year if he is still here. He won't listen to anyone. I've had it with this kid."
Bryant was aware of Jackson's ultimatum.
"I heard something like that, but I wasn't going to let that come between me and the team," Bryant said. "
It was not the first time Jackson requested the team trade Bryant. He sought to trade him to the Phoenix Suns for Jason Kidd and Shawn Marion in the 1999-00 season. But then-general manager Jerry West told Jackson that owner Jerry Buss would never trade the Laker star, he wrote in his diary. Jackson said he was told the same thing last season.
"He keeps diaries all the time. I mean, this is his fifth or sixth book," Bryant said. "I'd rather read 'Lord of the Rings' in one day. You know what I'm saying? But I wish him all the best with his book. Obviously, he has something else to focus on."
The Lakers released a statement on behalf of Buss and Kupchak, saying Jackson's book contained "several inaccuracies" but declined to elaborate.
"There are anecdotes that portray things that took place or were said in private, closed door meetings," the statement said. "While Phil has chosen to go public with some of what took place in these meetings, we will respect the spirit of privacy which we feel should be maintained and therefore will not respond to these entries.
"It should be remembered that most of what is contained are Phil's opinions and should be taken with that understanding, not as fact," the statement said.
During last week's training camp, Bryant said he misses Jackson.
"We've had our tough times, we had our share of arguments, but I've always respected him as a coach," he said.
Jackson became exasperated with the feuding between Bryant and Shaquille O'Neal.
"At times the pettiness between the two of them can be unbelievably juvenile," he wrote.
Jackson wrote that Bryant was angry that O'Neal received allowances from the Lakers organization, but that "nobody this year, or in any year I've coached, has received more 'allowances' than Kobe Bryant."
Among those allowances was the Lakers organization's partial payment for the private jets Bryant took to Colorado for the hearings in his rape case.
Bryant complained about the kind of plane he was given to fly to Colorado, Jackson wrote, adding "He should feel fortunate that he's not footing the bill himself."
Jackson said he became conditioned to blame Bryant, even when it wasn't the player's fault.
The sexual assault charge against Bryant was dismissed last month at his accuser's request, but he still faces a lawsuit filed in Denver by the woman.
Bryant told Jackson that O'Neal's presence on the team would affect his decision to stay with the Lakers, adding, "I'm tired of being a sidekick," Jackson wrote.
Bryant has said he had no role in Jackson or O'Neal's departure from the team. Jackson retired, and O'Neal was traded to the Miami Heat. Buss also said the decision to trade O'Neal was made independently of Bryant.
Jackson said he had run-ins with O'Neal as well but that coaching him was "an experience I will cherish forever."
Wat the is with the Laker fascination with bashing the GOAT Michael Jordan?
Do they think we give a what they post, as if bashing MJ elevates Kobe or something?
Laker fans, stfu.
Fair point.
True. A more fair comparison would be Kobe at the same age. You can't compare what Kobe would do on a bad team at age 17 to what Jordan did with a bad team after three years of college.
It is also quite possible to say that if you put Kobe on that Bulls team they would have been first round playoff fodder because Kobe wouldn't have had Jordan to model his game around. With out that MJ model you would probably see Kobe's real game where he ball hogs and takes 40 shots a game.
Kobe has used Jordan's game to help his own. Jordan used his own game.
Hard to believe MJ didn't have his own influences. Guys like David Thompson.
By acclamation, Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time. Although, a summary of his basketball career and influence on the game inevitably fails to do it justice, as a phenomenal athlete with a unique combination of fundamental soundness, grace, speed, power, artistry, improvisational ability and an unquenchable compe ive desire, Jordan single-handedly redefined the NBA superstar.
Even contemporaneous superstars recognized the unparalleled position of Jordan. Magic Johnson said, "There's Michael Jordan and then there is the rest of us." Larry Bird, following a playoff game where Jordan dropped 63 points on the Boston Celtics in just his second season, appraisal of the young player was: "God disguised as Michael Jordan.
A brief listing of his top accomplishments would include the following: Rookie of the Year; Five-time NBA MVP; Six-time NBA champion; Six-time NBA Finals MVP; Ten-time All-NBA First Team; Nine time NBA All-Defensive First Team; Defensive Player of the Year; 14-time NBA All-Star; Three-time NBA All-Star MVP; 50th Anniversary All-Time Team; Ten scoring les -- an NBA record and seven consecutive matching Wilt Chamberlain; Retired with the NBA's highest scoring average of 30.1ppg.
However, his impact is far greater than awards and championships. He burst into the league as a rookie sensation scoring in droves with an unmatchable first step and acrobatic drives and dunks and concluded his career as a cultural icon. Along the way, he became a true champion who spearheaded the globalization of the NBA with his dynamic on court abilities and personal sense of style that was marketed to the masses.
He was an accessible star who managed to maintain an air of mystique. He was visible as "Air Jordan," as part of a sneaker advertising campaign and endorsing other products as well as the star of the movie, Space Jam. However, he would vanish into retirement twice only to return until hanging up the sneakers for the last time after the 2002-03 season.
Although Brooklyn born, Jordan was bred in the more tranquil North Carolina. The son of Delores and James Jordan, he shared a special bond with his father, which included baseball being both of their first love. However, following his older brother, Larry, whom he idolized and was a spectacular athlete in his own right, Jordan began to play basketball.
He attended Laney High school in Wilmington, North Carolina, but as a 5-11 skinny sop re, he was cut from the varsity basketball team. The summer before his junior year, he grew to 6-3 and began his path to super-s om.
A Tar Heel at heart, the high school All-American attended the University of North Carolina. As a freshman, he played somewhat in the shadows of upperclassmen James Worthy and Sam Perkins. However, he shone in the spotlight of the NCAA Championship game against Georgetown and another great freshman Patrick Ewing, whom he would foil future NBA championships for as well. Jordan scored 16 points, grabbed nine rebounds and made the winning basket on a 16-foot jumper with 18 seconds in the game for the 63-62 victory.
As a sop re, he was named College Player of the Year by The Sporting News. As a junior, he received that award again as well as the Naismith and Wooden Awards. After his junior year he was chosen with the third overall pick in the 1984 NBA Draft by the Chicago Bulls.
The Houston Rockets selected 7-0 center Hakeem Olajuwon form the University of Houston with the No.1 pick, which most expected. The Portland Trail Blazers, however, with the No. 2 pick chose 7-1 center Sam Bowie from Kentucky, which was not as anticipated. Bowie had suffered several injuries while in college but the Blazers bypassed Jordan because just the year before the team selected another exciting shooting guard in Clyde Drexler. Although Drexler went onto to be a star, Bowie was an injury prone player with a journeyman pro career
However, Jordan, coming off a gold medal performance at the 1984 Olympics prospered in the pro game with a fabulous first season, earning the NBA Rookie of the Year Award. He averaged 28.2 ppg, (third behind Bernard King and Bird) 6.5 rpg and 5.9 apg. He also was selected to the All-NBA Second Team. Perhaps more important, the Bulls improved to win 11 more games than in the season prior to his arrival and made it to the playoffs. Jordan averaged 29.3 ppg in the first round series, but the Bulls lost in four games to the Milwaukee Bucks.
In his first season, he did not have outstanding shooting range and was thought to roam to often on defense resulting from playing trapping defenses in college according to his first NBA coach, Kevin Loughery. Yet, his medium game -- eight to 15-feet from the basket was impressive as evidenced by his .515 field-goal shooting percentage and his steals tended to compensate for his less than stellar straight-up defense. Improvement in both areas would come and he would ultimately be regarded as threat from anywhere on the floor and one of the best ever one-on-one defenders.
"There's Michael Jordan and then there is the rest of us."
-- Magic Johnson
Even in the exhibition season before his rookie campaign, players and coaches were sure that the Rockets and Blazers would regret their picks. King, the eventual leading scorer for that upcoming season, seemed sure as well when he spoke to Hoop magazine after a 1984 preseason game.
"All I can say," King says, "is that the people in Chicago are in for a real treat."
He was right. Jordan's greatness and likeabilty was apparent in just his first season. Home attendance at the venerable Chicago Stadium and on the road rose dramatically. Fans of opposing teams were seemingly content to see their team lose if in return Jordan put on show.
Jordan's personal style was equally authentic and unique as his basketball skills. Nike signed him to a major shoe deal because of his anticipated appeal, but he surpassed even the loftiest of expectations. One version of the sneakers he wore in his first preseason was an unseen before blend of his team's red and black colors that the NBA initially considered in violation of the "uniformity of uniform rule." Subject to fines if he continued to wear them, he occasionally did and the demand for that version and others in the Air Jordan line was unprecedented.
He also had a clause in his contract that allowed him, unlike most other NBA players, to play basketball anytime in the off-season -- known as the "love-of-the-game clause."
He dangled his tongue out of his mouth -- picked up from observing his dad working on mechanical devices -- as he levitated toward the basket and it became one of his first trademarks in personal style. He continued to wear the shorts of his beloved North Carolina basketball uniform under his Bulls uniform. This may have led him to wear longer game shorts although he has said that the extra length allowed him to bend at the waist and tug at the hem for a good resting position. Either way, the trend toward the baggy shorts was started and the entire league and sport would follow.
The rookie's mesmerizing effect was even suggested to have extended to referees as it was said that he was getting veteran preferential treatment allowing him to take that additional step on route to the basket rather than being whistle for a travelling violation. Many assessed that he eluded defenders so easily that he had to be travelling. However, video break down established that his first step was just so quick and that he was not in violation of the rulebook.
Despite all the attention, Jordan retained a sense of humility. He did not ridicule the Blazers for not taking him. Early on in his first season, he told Sports Illustrated, "He [Bowie] fits in better than I would. They have an overabundance of big guards and small forwards." His self-effacement was more apparent when in that same article he said, "I'd like to play in at least one All-Star game."
That goal was quickly accomplished as later that season he was voted a starter to the 1985 All-Star East squad. There, he probably faced one of his first professional obstacles. The media ran with the idea that Eastern All-Star teammate Detroit Pistons' Isiah Thomas, had led a "freeze-out" of the golden rookie limiting his opportunities to score by not passing him the ball.
Jordan scored seven points in 22 minutes and was left to face questions concerning the alleged conspiracy. The affair grew a life of its own over the years, but Thomas refuted such accusations. The whole ordeal would come full circle when Thomas, as the coach of the 2003 East All-Star squad, persuaded Toronto Raptors' Vince Carter to relinquish his starting role to Jordan in his last midseason classic.
Three games into his second season, he broke a bone in his left foot. He was voted to the All-Star team but could not play as he was sidelined for 64 games. However, he came back late in the year to score a NBA playoff-record 63 points in a first-round game against the Celtics. The Bulls lost that game 132-131 in double-overtime and the series in a sweep, but Jordan averaged 43.7 ppg in the series. If there were any doubters to that point about Jordan's ability, surely there were no more.
Starting with the 1986-87 season he began a career-long onslaught on the NBA record book. That year saw him average 37.1 points in the first of seven consecutive seasons in which he led the league in scoring and topped 30 points per contest. Jordan scored 40 or more points in nine consecutive games and 23 straight in one game to set an NBA record. At the All-Star Weekend, he won the first of two consecutive Slam Dunk com pe ions. However, again, the Celtics swept the Bulls in the first-round of the playoffs
That off-season, the Bulls began assembling a championship caliber team by drafting power forward Horace Grant and acquiring the versatile small forward Scottie Pippen from tiny Central Arkansas in a draft day trade with the Seattle SuperSonics for former University of Virgina center Olden Polyinice. In 1987-88, Jordan won every major award including MVP, Defensive Player of the Year and All-Star MVP. With the help of his teammates, Jordan led the Bulls to a first-round playoff win over the Cleveland Cavaliers before falling to the Pistons in five games in the conference semifinals.
The Pistons known as the "Bad Boys" for its aggressive style of play would defeat Jordan and the Bulls in the Eastern Conference Finals in the next two seasons as well. Utilizing a defensive scheme developed by Head Coach Chuck Daly and his staff, known as the "Jordan Rules", the Pistons dared Jordan to single-handily win games with constant double and triple teaming. The Bulls, however, were nudging to a championship as each successive season the team would get closer.
In the 1988-89 season, perhaps Jordan's best statistical campaign, he led the league with 32.5 ppg, was tenth in assists with a career high 8.0 apg and had a career high 8.0 rpg. He also ranked third in steals with 2.89 per game. Jordan propelled the Bulls past the Cavs in the first round of the playoffs as in the decisive Game 5; he scored the memorable buzzer beater-floating jumper over Craig Ehlo for a 101-100 victory.
Prior to the beginning of the 1989-90 season, Sports Illustrated published an article on Jordan's emerging golf game and his thoughts about joining the PGA tour after his NBA career was over. Chicago management, however, was making other moves.
That off-season, the Bulls let go Head Coach Doug Collins and hired Phil Jackson. Under Jackson's leadership, the Bulls ins uted the triangle offense --a fluid passing and cutting system that created opportunities for all five players on the floor to score, but when the play broke down and the shot clock waned, Jordan had free reign to create his own shot.
The Bulls went 55-27 that season, the franchise's best record since 1971-72. Jordan set his career game-high in points with 69 against the Cavs in a 117-113 overtime win. He also emerged as a three-point threat, posting a .376 percentage -- 100 percentage points above his previous best. However, the Pistons defeated the Bulls in a tough seven game series in the 1990 Eastern Conference Finals.
That third consecutive playoff defeat to the Pistons prompted many to think out-loud that a scoring champion like Jordan could not lead his team to a le.
Were they ever wrong. The next year, Jordan led the Bulls as the team waltzed through the postseason losing only twice en route to the franchise's first NBA le. The redemptive blow was the sweep of the Pistons in the conference finals. And after losing the first game at home to the Los Angeles Lakers in the NBA Finals, the Bulls stormed back to win four straight to end the last remnants of the "Showtime" Lakers as Magic Johnson would retire before the beginning of the next season. Jordan averaged 31.4 ppg, 6.4 rpg and 8.4 apg earning the first of six NBA Finals MVP awards.
Jordan, who by now shaved his head completely bald triggering another trend and making him recognizable by just the dark rounded silhouette of his head, was now known as a champion. He was also known to be ultra-demanding of his teammates, ruffling more than a few feathers with his critiques. But winning was the soothing elixir. The Bulls would go on to successfully defend its le for two consecutive seasons, defeating both Drexler and the Blazers and the Charles Barkley-led Phoenix Suns in six games.
By the end of that three-year run, Jordan had eclipsed s om and approached folk hero status. Early into his career, he drew Peter Pan like admiration for his gravity defying leaps and belief that he would remain youthful forever. However, during the three-peat, players and teams seemed to concede that the le was Jordan. He garnered a legion of fans young and old alike but in particular to kids he was a Pied Piper figure who were asked to follow him with his sports drink "Be Like Mike" advertising campaign.
In the 1992 Finals, Jordan opened up Game 1 with a record setting 35-point first-half performance to lead the Bulls to a 122-89 rout. Jordan seemed unstoppable as he drained several three-pointers over Blazer defenders and after one made three he shrugged his shoulders as if to say, I don't even know what's going on here. The Blazers bounced back and seemed poised to force a Game 7 as it took a 79-64 lead into the fourth quarter of Game 6. However, the Bulls roared back for a 97-93 series clinching win.
In 1993, Jordan led the Bulls past the Patrick Ewing-led Knicks for the fourth time in five postseasons -- this time in the Eastern Conference Finals in six games with out the home court advantage. Jordan scored 54 points in a 105-95 Game 4 win. And in the series' turning point that was Game 5, Jordan recorded a triple double (29 points, 10 rebounds and 14 assists). But the crucial play was Pippen's successive blocks of putback attempts by the Knicks' Charles Smith in the final seconds that allowed the Bulls to escape the Garden with a 97-94 win. The Bulls sealed the series with a 96-88 victory in Game 6.
In the Finals, Jordan set a Finals record as he posted a 41.0 ppg average in the six game series victory over the Suns. In the decisive Game Six, the Bulls again stormed back to overcome a fourth quarter deficit. This time, Jordan scored nine straight points down the stretch leading to John Paxson's game winning three-pointer with 3.9 seconds on the clock for a 98-97 victory.
That summer, Jordan was the key figure in forming the Dream Team that competed in the 1992 Olympics in Barcelona, Spain. The 12-member roster, full of the era's best players were respected as basketball royalty by its opponents whom they outclassed on the way to the gold medal and idolized like pop icons by the world's fans.
But trouble was brewing. Jordan was under scrutiny for what was thought to be poor decisions with respect to his gambling endeavors. But that paled in comparison to the loss of his father who was murdered during an armed robbery. His father was Jordan's main confidant whom could be seen with his son on a regular basis as he climbed the ladder of success.
Emotionally drained and seeking new challenges, just one day before the start of training camp, Jordan stunned the basketball world by announcing his retirement.
After much speculation about his plans, Jordan returned to the spotlight in a baseball uniform. Attempting to fulfill a dream inspired by his father, the younger Jordan set his sights on Major League Baseball. He spent the 1994 baseball season playing for the Birmingham Barons, an affiliate of the Chicago White Sox in the Class AA Southern League.
He was a competent if unspectacular performer. But Jordan's hope of reaching the big leagues seemed dim, and with Major League Baseball embroiled in a labor dispute as the 1995 season neared, he focused his compe ive fire back on the NBA. Late in the 1994-95 NBA season, he came out of retirement with the succinct statement of "I'm Back."
He was back, albeit with the unorthodox No. 45 as he wanted to leave No. 23 behind, and attempted to carry the Bulls to another le. Jordan averaged 26.9 points in 17 regular-season games, which the Bulls played to a record of 13-4.
The most memorable game of the initial comeback occurred six games in when he scored 55 points against the Knicks in the Garden. That game, dubbed "Double Nickel," was extraordinary in that a new Jordan emerged. Robbed of his youthful bounce at age 32, he turned primarily to fade-away jump shots and spinning layups. And in the waning moments of a tie game, he drew attention as he dribbled around the perimeter then passed to a wide-open Bill Wennington under the basket for the winning points in a 113-111 victory.
His coach, Jackson, in the aftermath said, "It's rare that players can live quite up to New York. I've seen a lot of them fall flat on their faces because of the pressure to perform there. But he had the whole evening in the palm of his hand. Sometimes the game just seems to gravitate into his grasp."
In the playoffs, he poured in 31.5 ppg. But despite Jordan's presence in the lineup, the Bulls didn't have quite enough to get past the Orlando Magic in the conference semifinals. Chicago lost to the Shaquille O'Neal-led Magic in six games.
Jordan's championship quest was fulfilled the following season with almost a whole new band of players than in his first le runs. He began the season with his old No. 23 uniform but only his sidekick Pippen remaining from the first three championship teams. The Bulls added Dennis Rodman, an enigmatic player but a rebounding and defensive phenom.
The team enjoyed one of the most remarkable years ever posted by any club. Jordan led the NBA with 30.4 ppg as the Bulls charged to a record 72 victories during the regular season, then stormed through the playoffs with a 15-3 record ending in a six game series win over the Sonics.
Poignantly, Jordan recaptured the le on Father's Day and cradled the ball after the decisive game in a heap on the floor of the United Center, which replaced Chicago Stadium during his retirement, unabashedly crying. The emotional impact of the moment was overwhelming.
Along the way, Jordan captured the MVP awards for the regular season, All-Star Game and Finals, joining Willis Reed (1970) as the only men to win all three honors in the same season.
Although he had relinquished the MVP award to Karl Malone in 1996-97, Jordan was awarded MVP in 1997-98 and again led the Bulls to the NBA Championship with a satisfying six-game victory over Malone's Utah Jazz. Despite a horrible case of stomach flu in a critical Game Five, he would not let his team lose. He scored 38 points and the Bulls won the game and then the le at home in Game Six. He was also named the NBA Finals MVP for the fifth time.
The Bulls duplicated the three-peat in 1998-99 with another six game series win over the Jazz. Jordan with his team down three points at the close of Game Six, scored on driving move to the basket. And on the next Jazz possession, he stole the ball from Malone in the post to set-up his game winning jump shot. The shot over Bryon Russell with 6.6 seconds left on the clock is etched in many fans mind and photographic history.
After labor negotiations were resolved leaving a shortened season in 1999; Jordan left the game saying, "Right now I don't have the mental challenges that I have had in the past to proceed as a basketball player." Despite not playing for three seasons during his second retirement, Jordan was still probably the most recognizable athlete in the world.
However, after assuming an ownership and team executive role with the Washington Wizards in 2000, he returned to play the game he loves, after being visibly frustrated in the owners' box with the team's performance. On Sept. 25, 2001, he signed a two-year contract with the Wizards for the veteran's minimum.
Jordan brought in his old Bulls' coach Doug Collins and tried mightily to revive a once accomplished franchise that had sunken to moribund levels. But the Wizards, although an attendance draw around the league, failed to make the playoffs in Jordan's two years. However, moments of the great Jordan were apparent such as scoring 40 points a few days after his 40th birthday in the 2002-03 season.
He left as a player to return to an ownership and executive role with the belief that with the cluster of young stars, the NBA was in fine shape. Above all, Jordan recognized his place in the game. In his book, For The Love of The Game: My Story, Jordan wrote: "There is no such thing as a perfect basketball player, and I don't believe there is only one greatest player either. Everyone plays in different eras. I built my talents on the shoulders of someone else's talent. I believe greatness is an evolutionary process that changes and evolves era to era. Without Julius Erving, David Thompson, Walter Davis, and Elgin Baylor there would never have been a Michael Jordan. I evolved from them."
At the turn of the 21st century, ESPN, the preeminent all-sports network, conducted an expansive survey of media members, athletes and others associated with the sports world to rank the 20th century's greatest athletes. Jordan topped the list above Babe Ruth and Muhammad Ali -- substantiating his link to those earlier cultural icons.
A big difference between Kobe and MJ is that the league didn't engineer absurdly lop-sided trades to help out the Bulls. But all this will forgotten as Kobe and PJ inevitably pass Jordan's 6 le mark.
The NBA's most successful marketing narratives are "progress," as in passing the torch, etc, and "the best ever." They don't know how to sell parity as the NFL does.
WHY MICHAEL JORDAN IS THE GREATEST ATHLETE OF ALL TIME
Ah yes, the greatest athlete of all-time. It is a tricky debate that comes up every few years, and now that Tiger Woods is dominating again in golf, everyone wants to know where he stands. But is he really a great athlete, and can he stand
up to the all-time greats who competed in more physically demanding sports?
Personally, I would say no. More on that later. My choice, and this is saying something coming from a die-hard Detroit fan who hates all things Chicago, is Michael Jordan. Over the years, my hate for him has transformed into respect for his accomplishments and the way he dominated basketball for so long.
Now that I’ve given you my choice, I will delve deeper into the question of what it takes to be considered the greatest athlete of all-time.
First, the preface: an athlete has to be someone who engages in a rigorous sport of which conditioning and skills such as speed, strength, and endurance are a factor. When I think of an athlete, I definitely do not picture any of the following: bowler, dart thrower, cup stacker (thanks for nothing, ESPN!), compe ive eater, and finally, golfer. No offense to those activities but they are not played by athletes. Go ahead and look up the definition and you’ll see what I mean.
Second, the premise: the greatest athlete of all-time is someone who dominated his or her sport and remained at the top for a long period of time while making the impossible seem routine. Now, let me tell you why some other popular figures are not the greatest of all-time.
Babe Ruth is arguably the greatest baseball player of all-time (and most of the people who argue against him will lose that argument, especially considering his pitching prowess), but he is out of the discussion because of his lack of physical conditioning. That's not to say a baseball player can’t ascend to the throne, but there has to be reason to believe that he could be a great player in other sports. If Bo Jackson or Ken Griffey, Jr. had set the home run record and stole a bunch of bases while displaying all-around athletic prowess, for example, I would be much more willing to listen to an argument for them. It all goes back to that portrait of an athlete we have in our heads.
Tiger Woods certainly fits that portrait, and he has dominated golf like no one else. And since the omnipresent opinion-slingers of today’s high-profile sports forums have run out of superlatives to describe Tiger, they’ve taken to debating his place in history among great athletes on almost a daily basis. Most agree with my statement that golfers are not athletes, but a select few refute that notion, pointing to Tiger’s rock-hard physique and willingness to undergo military Special Forces training as proof that he is indeed an athlete.
Make no mistake about it, Woods is athletic and fit enough to partake in several other sports. But whether or not he could actually excel in them is anyone’s guess because golf doesn’t require him to use these talents. Still don’t agree? Switch Tiger Woods’ list of golf accomplishments with Phil Mickelson’s, and imagine Phil as the recipient of all this praise. Could we dare speak Phil Mickelson’s name and the word “athlete” in the same sentence without laughing aloud? Would anyone argue that shooting a great round of golf is an athletic achievement if Phil were on top? I rest my case.
So that narrows it down to two, unless I’m missing someone in ancient times; perhaps a brave fellow who fought off three lions in one day in the Coliseum or someone who ran through the entire Oregon Trail like a marathon. The final two are Michael Jordan and Muhammad Ali, each icons of their sport, each absolutely dominant for the vast majority of their careers. Here we go. Air Jordan vs. the baddest man ever to stalk the earth. Let’s break it down by category.
In terms of overall athleticism (speed, agility, power in Ali’s case, jumping in Jordan’s), it’s pretty much a wash. Both began their careers as arguably the top pure athletes in their sports and then made successful transitions later on as they mastered the mental side of their sports to remain on top. Who had the more successful career? That’s another difficult question.
Jordan won an NCAA le at North Carolina and six NBA les over 15 seasons, despite retiring after his third for a year and then coming back. Ali went 56-5 in his career with 37 knockouts and fought for 19 years. From the time Ali turned pro, it took him four years (until 1964 when he defeated Sonny Liston) to become Heavyweight Champion.
Jordan took six years to win his first championship but was First-Team All-NBA in his third season until his retirement, not counting the Washington years. Pretty remarkable, considering basketball is a team game and it’s doubtful any one player could have led the ragtag Bulls past the powerful Pistons, Celtics, and Lakers of the 1980’s, much like it would have been exceedingly difficult for Ali to have beaten the top heavyweights of his era when he first burst onto the boxing scene.
Finally, let’s look at overall success. Jordan captured six championships and stayed on top from then on for the most part. He came back for the last 17 games of the 1994-1995 season but his Bulls lost in the Eastern Conference Finals despite Jordan’s 31.5 points a game. From then on, the Bulls had another three-peat, and Jordan also came back with the Washington Wizards at the age of 38 and still scored 22.9 and 20.0 points a game in his final two seasons.
Ali held the Heavyweight le from 1964 until 1971, when he lost to Joe Frazier in an epic 15-round bout at the age of 29.
So basically, both Jordan and Ali had one hiccup while they were still in their primes, if you consider Jordan’s early struggles as similar to Ali’s quest to work his way up the ladder to become heavyweight champion and factor in the weakness of Jordan’s supporting cast.
Ali would reclaim his belt against George Foreman in 1974 and then lose it again to Leon Spinks in 1978 at the age of 36. But I won't hold it against Ali because when Jordan was 36, he was probably out on the golf course betting countless thousands of dollars and spending the rest of his time in the casinos. As you can see, the parallels between the careers of Jordan and Ali are striking. So why have I given the slight nod to Jordan? It’s tough to quantify, let alone explain, but I'll try.
When I watched Jordan play, I simply got the sense that he was head and shoulders above everyone else, despite being only 6-foot-6 in a game dominated by giants. It was almost as if he was toying with the other players; always pacing himself and relying on his teammates until crunch time, during which he delivered like no one else. In terms of speed, body control, leaping ability, physical conditioning, and explosiveness, there wasn’t anyone better in his sport. And unlike Ali, he did it for 100+ games every year (counting the playoffs). He had to perform day after day under the bright lights, and he almost always came through.
Ali fought 56 times in 15 years (using just his statistics in his prime, not his final four years when he fought sparingly) for an average of 3.7 bouts per year. That would be high for many modern boxers, but it’s still not the same as performing on a consistent basis like Jordan and other athletes do. I give him credit for recovering from getting hit and I’m sure he trained like a madman year-round, but it’s just not the same.
I’m not saying he couldn’t perform and compete for long seasons like Jordan did, but because he didn’t, I have to give the slight edge to Jordan. Hey, when you’re talking about two virtually flawless athletes, sometimes it’s the little things that count, and that’s what makes it such a timeless debate. Please don't take it personally.
LOL at miamiheat posts..longer then a in book
Exactly. David Thompson was a huge influence on Jordan which is why he asked him to be his presenter at the Hall of Fame.
“I got a call from the Hall of Fame and they asked me if I was willing to be a presenter for someone,” Thompson recently told Yahoo! Sports. “I said, ‘Yeah.’ I didn’t know who it was. … They said Michael Jordan. I was like, ‘Wow.’ He told them that he was a big fan of mine and I was the one that really inspired him.
Like Rodman for Will Perdue? Good one Spurs.
Fantastic job owning yourself. San Antonio stupidity I suppose.
Greatest Athlete Ever
Is Michael Jordan the greatest ever? Not just the greatest basketball player but the greatest athlete: a figure who not only dominates his sport but also changes the way it's played, who dominates that sport not only in his own time but also across time? Where does Jordan stand relative to Babe Ruth, say, or Muhammad Ali?
Let's knock down the basketball straw man first. If someone plays defense like Bill Russell, passes like Isiah Thomas, scores like Julius Erving and rises to the occasion like Larry Bird, it's hard to argue against him. The clincher comes in the context of his team. When Jordan's around, the Bulls win championships. When he's off flailing at minor-league curve balls, they don't.
Now, the serious compe ion. Ruth nearly invented the home run, and remains second only to Hank Aaron in career homers. His teams won more than their share--more even than Jordan's share--of championships. As an offensive force, Ruth utterly dominated his era (in 1921, only two American League teams hit as many home runs as Ruth did all by himself), and that was an era in which baseball had a near monopoly on the best professional athletes. The capstone to the Ruth argument is the five-season stretch during which he was among baseball's best pitchers before switching full time to the outfield. He was Mark McGwire, Tony Gwynn and Greg Maddux all rolled into one.
But Ruth's accomplishments are diminished by one brutal fact: he didn't play against black athletes. One-tenth of the population, and surely a far larger proportion of those motivated to succeed in athletics, never had a chance to test Ruth. I hate to admit it, but it may be that the Babe was more George Mikan than Michael Jordan.
Ali? Among those in individual sports, his record is without peer, as was his combination of talents: size, speed, power, guile and the colossal heart that vanquished the great Joe Frazier. But Ali suffers from the converse of the Ruth argument: by the time Ali came along, the best athletes had been siphoned off by team sports. Ali was a giant, but most of his opponents were relative dwarfs.
Jim Brown? Just nine seasons, offense only. Jim Thorpe? More legend than accomplishment. Jack Nicklaus? Sorry, but golfers, like tennis players and decathletes, don't have to suffer flying elbows, inside sliders or other lethal moving objects. Hockey has until recently attracted only athletes from colder regions. There has simply never been an athletic accomplishment on the scale of Jordan's in the U.S.
But that national qualifier is critical. If you're looking for the best in the world, you would have to pick someone who dominated a sport played by more than 200 million people, most from countries where no other game matters enough to draw down the talent pool; an athlete who at 17 led his team to the first of his unprecedented three world championships, who in a sport accustomed to the 1-0 shutout scored an astonishing 1,281 goals. For my money, if you have to pick the one best athlete of all time, it's Brazil's nonpareil Pele, the Michael Jordan of soccer.
LOL! Nice.Like Rodman for Will Perdue? Good one Spurs.
Fantastic job owning yourself. San Antonio stupidity I suppose.
The NBA engineered the Gasol trade? Hahaha...this shows you the level of intelligence we are dealing with.
The Spurs could sure use a 15/10/1.5 Marc Gasol + 2010 cap space like Memphis has right about now. Would be great next to Timmy.
1. Playoff PPG All Time
2. PPG All Time
Kobe will never be as good as MJ was.
Next off is the following:
Also, Kobe in the finals. This is how they performed in the finals.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/colum...zillgitt_x.htm
In 35 Finals games, Jordan averaged 33.6 points, 6.0 rebounds and 6.0 assists a game on 48% FG
In 30 Finals games, Bryant has averaged 24.6 points, 5.2 rebounds and 5.3 assists a game on 41% FG
Also MJ has 5 finals in the top 15 all time with all 6 in the top 26 and Kobe has 0 finals performances in the top 50 and has a all time top 10 worst finals performance.
http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/playoff...Performances-2
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playof...ormances-Worst
Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers, 2004
Lakers vs. Pistons -- Bryant's PER 14.2
With his feud against Shaq escalating and the series getting away from the Lakers, Bryant began taking whatever shot struck him. Mostly, they struck the rim -- he shot 38.1 percent and had nearly as many turnovers (18) as assists (22) as Detroit romped in five games.
MVP's - Jordan = 5; Kobe = 1
les - Jordan = 6 (as the #1 Option and best player); Kobe = 1 (as the best player on team) 3 (2nd best player on team)
Finals MVP's - Jordan = 6; Kobe = 1
DPOY - Jordan = 1; Kobe = 0
Scoring les - Jordan = 10; Kobe = 2
Career PPG - Jordan = 30.1 (Highest Ever); Kobe = 25.0
Playoffs PPG - Jordan = 33.4 (Highest Ever); Kobe = 25.0
Playoff Points - Jordan = 5987 - Most Ever Points (179 games); Kobe = 4381 (175 games)
FG% - Jordan - 50% Career; Kobe = 45% Career Thus Far
Playoff FG% - Jordan = 49% Career; Kobe = 45% Career Thus Far
PER (Offensive and Defensive Rating) - Jordan Career = 27.91 (highest ever); Kobe = 23.64
Playoff PER (Offensive and Defensive Rating) - Jordan Career = 28.59 (highest ever); Kobe = 22.04
Steals - Jordan = 2.4 SPG Career (with 3 Steals les); Kobe = 1.5 SPG
Blocks - Jordan = 0.8 BPG Career (most blocks ever for a guard); Kobe = 0.6
Here were the requirements
NBA ALL-TIME LEADERS:
(All statistical records + playoff records + career averages + playoff averages + MVPs + Finals MVPs + Rings + All-1st teams + All-1st Defensive Teams + All-star games + All-star MVPS)
This is how it broke down each category:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baske...ree-team_x.htm
This is how it broke down each category:
NBA MVP awards won (five points each)
NBA championships won (five points each)
All-Star Games selected to play in (one point each)
All-NBA first-team selections (two points each)
All-defensive first team (one point each)
NBA Finals MVP awards (two points each)
All-Star MVP awards (one point each)
Individual statistical les (two points each) — restricted to points, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage and free throw percentage, the stats the league has used the longest
Career averages (six points each) — if a player is the NBA career leader in scoring average, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage or free throw percentage
Career playoff averages (five points each) — for each category the player leads
That was the criteria used
1st Place: MJ, 149 total points
2nd Place: Wilt, 124 total points
3rd Place: Bill, 118 total points
4th Place: Jabbar, 114 total points
5th Place: Magic, 102 total points
Now adding up the current players you get (Active Players):
1st Place: Shaq, 87 total points
2nd Place: Tim, 74 total points
3rd Place: KB, 66 total points
To show the greatness of MJ he never has had a playoff series where he was outscored nor has he ever had a series where he averaged less than 26.6 ppg. Also MJ averaged over 31+ ppg in every playoffs after his rookie year (where he averaged 29.3 ppg in his rookie year)
Jordan's playoffs career average is: 33.4 PPG / 6.4 RPG / 5.7 APG / 2.1 SPG / 0.9 BPG / 49% FG / 28.59 PER
All ya'll need to stop ing..i'm damn sick of coming to this forum & seeing the same ty threads about MJ vs Kobe..Honestly do some of you Laker fans not understand how in great MJ was?? Sure Kobe is damn good but you cant compare them till Kobe reaches 35-36 years old.
LOL MiamiHeat is so insecure and butthurt that he unleashes the statistics card like there's no tomorrow.
Kobe wouldn't have either if the Lakers had Pippen in his prime playing defense on Paul Pierce instead of Vladimir Radmanovic (who is a very poor defender). Stupid troll comment.
Rage? Because stats show MJ > Kobe?
This man here speaks wisdom.
Everyone is sick and tired of reading the same ty Kobe threads from these insecure laker fans.
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