Brendan Haywood and Caron Butler close to being Mavericks

[murpjf88]

You miss the even bigger point. Even if the Spurs are to somehow avoid the Mavs, they still have no chance in against the Lakers. This trade changes nothing in that regard.

you miss the bigger point. even if the spurs miss the Mavs, they have no chance against the Lakers, Jazz, Portland or Denver. You can't avoid them all.

[timvp]

??

Um, if the Mavs had traded Howard and Gooden for Wes Unseld and Elvin Hayes, that wouldn't have changed.

Exactly. The Mavs improving doesn't change anything. Dallas would still beat the Spurs and the Lakers remain the best team in the West. The only way this trade matters at this point is if the Spurs' goal is to erect a "We Made it Further Than the Mavs" banner at the end of the season.

[ffadicted]

Exactly. The Mavs improving doesn't change anything. Dallas would still beat the Spurs and the Lakers remain the best team in the West. The only way this trade matters at this point is if the Spurs' goal is to erect a "We Made it Further Than the Mavs" banner at the end of the season.

One would have to think that it changes things in the trading aspect though. The spurs have to realize that sitting and waiting for Jefferson to become the 16, 6, 3, defensive player that we traded for isn't gonna cut it. You're right that it doesn't change much in the whole outlook of the playoffs, but maybe it's gonna act as a wake up call of sorts

[Rogue]

It's OK for Spurs to consider the grape acid but it's definitely not the right time for complaints IMHO, as the window is still open and the chances are still out there for Spurs to grab. Despite how much Spurs have been affected by their growing ages over the past several years, they still hold the main skeletons that supported their building from 2003 to 2007, in which period of time there includes 3 championship years.

[Rogue]

Duncan is still Duncan even at age 33; Manu has slumped a lot from the son of wind version of him into the bald header as he currently is, but he's still productive as a sixth man for the Spurs. Tony Longoria is right in prime and maturer than ever, and a healthy TL is still the guy to count on.

The only occupation that still stands vacant is the leader at defensive end, which used to be handled wonderfully by Bruce Bowen. Even without making any noise-generating moves the Spurs still have the chance to upgrade themselves by obtaining a defensive specialist to fill the only missing point. and a defense-orientated player generally doesn't cost as much as an attacker of equivalent caliber.

[ZB 512]

Exactly. The Mavs improving doesn't change anything. Dallas would still beat the Spurs and the Lakers remain the best team in the West. The only way this trade matters at this point is if the Spurs' goal is to erect a "We Made it Further Than the Mavs" banner at the end of the season.

the division le is between the Mavs and Spurs

if the Spurs dont win the division, they will probably be a #6 or #7 seed

[TJastal]

It's difficult for me to care about this trade too much. Prior to the trade, the Mavs would have been the favorite against the Spurs in the playoffs. The Mavs were built perfectly to exploit the Spurs' weaknesses -- specifically the lack of size and mobility next to Duncan.

Now? It's pretty much the same. Instead of having just Dampier to throw against Duncan, they have Dampier and Haywood ... which obviously isn't good news for the Spurs. Against most teams, Butler is an upgrade over Howard for the Mavs. However, against the Spurs, I'd say it's about a wash. The Spurs could never guard Howard because they didn't have the right type of athlete to put against him. On top of that, Howard played with the utmost of confidence against the Spurs. As it stands, Butler is the better player but I doubt he'd be too much of an improvement over how Howard routinely destroys San Antonio. Plus, what does this trade do to the minutes of Spur Killer Jason Terry? That's not too clear at this point.

I still give the edge to the Mavs in a series against the Spurs. I don't think their odds improved that much from pre-trade though. Thus, I won't lose any sleep over this trade. The Spurs have much bigger problems than a team that already would have beaten them moving around some talent.

In the big picture, however, this was a very good trade for the Mavs. Before the trade, they had no shot at a championship. After the trade, they are still huge underdogs but there is a chance. Caron Butler has never played with a legit ball distributing point guard before. Kidd could help him blossom and reach his full potential. Going from playing with point guards like Arenas and Chucky Atkins to Kidd can do nothing but help.

Haywood will also help, especially against the bigger and tougher frontlines. Motivation and effort has been a problem for Haywood at some points in his career but it being a contract year should make that a non-issue. Not to mention how he'll be going from the worst passing team in the NBA to one of the best.

The best part of this trade for the Mavs is that it doesn't hurt them long term. They have this year and next year to give it a go and then return to having flexibility. Usually in this type of salary dump, a team has to mortgage their future. In this deal, Cuban just basically bought a chance at a championship without busting his payroll structure.

The Lakers are still the huge favorite in the West. I'd say the Nuggets remain second. After the trade, the Mavs are a solid third. The Jazz might have like a 0.1% chance ... but I give no chance to the rest of the Western Conference as it stands.

[TJastal]

Err.. meant to reply to your thread Timvp.. but I can't do an edits anymore, I guess I'm in the spurstalk doghouse.

Just thought I'd chime in about Howard. That guy does nothing but kill us, I'm so glad he's outta Dallas. For some weird reason this guy always feasts on the spurs and the referees treat him like the second coming on Jordan when he plays S.A. I'm not scared of Butler as much.

Gooden is another I'm actually glad is gone. The guy played like a crazed fiend against us earlier this year. I think he pulled down like 8-10 offensive rebounds. I'm actually glad they got rid of him too. Haywood is just a younger version of Dampier (who ironically is another guy who murdered us earlier this year). So hopefully Haywood takes a big chunk of Damp's PT away.

[mavsfan1000]

LOL a while? Well thats two years without one now if you count the playoffs! Just 07 hahahha. Good point there! Better than well, NEVER.......

Considering they won't win one in a long time, it is a good point. They took advantage of their opportunities and now time for mediocrity unless a major deal comes.

[venitian navigator]

Now that they are in Washington, all these players (Ross, Gooden, Singleton, Howard) could be traded to us...

If Washington just want to clear space and pay less, I wouldn't mind have back Gooden for, saying, RMJ, and then give Ratliff for Singleton...we need younger bodyes, Gooden was playing o.k. this year and Singleton is really athletic...and shoot the three.

[timvp]

Gooden? That was a failed experiment.

I wouldn't mind the Spurs taking a gamble on Howard. RMJ, Finley and Bonner for JHo? I'd do it. He could be a classic change of scenery type player.

[AFBlue]

Now that they are in Washington, all these players (Ross, Gooden, Singleton, Howard) could be traded to us...

If Washington just want to clear space and pay less, I wouldn't mind have back Gooden for, saying, RMJ, and then give Ratliff for Singleton...we need younger bodyes, Gooden was playing o.k. this year and Singleton is really athletic...and shoot the three.

Isn't there a time limit for traded players to be flipped again? I don't know the rules specifically, but I'm pretty sure the guys who just got traded would have to be waived and signed to come to the Spurs.

Am I wrong?

[timvp]

Isn't there a time limit for traded players to be flipped again? I don't know the rules specifically, but I'm pretty sure the guys who just got traded would have to be waived and signed to come to the Spurs.

Am I wrong?

A player that was recently traded can be traded again, however they can't be combined with other players. They can only be traded by themselves.

[weebo]

Gooden? That was a failed experiment.

I wouldn't mind the Spurs taking a gamble on Howard. RMJ, Finley and Bonner for JHo? I'd do it. He could be a classic change of scenery type player.

Can a player be traded twice in one week?

[Mel_13]

Can a player be traded twice in one week?

yes

[Mark in Austin]

I wouldn't mind the Spurs taking a gamble on Howard. RMJ, Finley and Bonner for JHo? I'd do it. He could be a classic change of scenery type player.

I guess it depends on if the Wiz see Howard as pure cap relief or if they see a potential Wizard beyond this year. What you proposed would knock another million off Washington's salary cap number. It seems like a good risk given how high some in the organization were on Howard. (no pun intended) I wonder if Pop called AJ for a review of Howard what he would say?

But come on... Pop trading Finley? And Holt authorizing another 2 million in expenditures?

What are the odds of both of those things happening for a 50-50 shot player?

I guess better than Manu, Jefferson, and Hill to Philly for Igoudala and Dalembert...

or this one plus the rights to Splitter

[ohmwrecker]

How the does Brendon Haywood warrant so much hype? Does anyone remember what a huge bust this guy was considered to be? He was Darko before Darko. He was Kwame Brown bad. Sure, he has improved marginally, but he has to be hitting the ceiling of his potential. You don't suck for 5 years and just turn into a monster. It doesn't happen. This guy is just going to cut into Erica's time and yield the same results.
I'm not sweating the Mavs any more or less because of this trade.

[Obstructed_View]

This move might have cost the Spurs a shot at the division, as the Mavs will likely get a bump from the enthusiasm and excitement of all the new scenery. It won't last. Butler's likely an upgrade from Josh Howard against everyone else, but not Josh Howard against San Antonio. Having another big is nice for them, but it might just be enough to convince Popovich that he needs to get his bigs dusted off and into the rotation, and that helps the Spurs in the long run.

If Pop's going to be running his small lineups with Fin and RJ at the 4, the Spurs won't get out of the first round pretty much no matter who they face, should they find themselves unlucky enough to qualify for the playoffs.

[Johnny RIngo]

Good move for the Mavs. I don't see this trade putting them on par with the Lakers but it's a step in the right direction.

Spurs FO will more than likely do nothing thanks to Holt's cheapness. Not gonna be pretty watching Pop turn us into a lottery team with his smallball bull .

[Obstructed_View]

Good move for the Mavs. I don't see this trade putting them on par with the Lakers but it's a step in the right direction.

Spurs FO will more than likely do nothing thanks to Holt's cheapness. Not gonna be pretty watching Pop turn us into a lottery team with his smallball bull .

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[badfish22]

Err.. meant to reply to your thread Timvp.. but I can't do an edits anymore, I guess I'm in the spurstalk doghouse.

Just thought I'd chime in about Howard. That guy does nothing but kill us, I'm so glad he's outta Dallas. For some weird reason this guy always feasts on the spurs and the referees treat him like the second coming on Jordan when he plays S.A. I'm not scared of Butler as much.

Gooden is another I'm actually glad is gone. The guy played like a crazed fiend against us earlier this year. I think he pulled down like 8-10 offensive rebounds. I'm actually glad they got rid of him too. Haywood is just a younger version of Dampier (who ironically is another guy who murdered us earlier this year). So hopefully Haywood takes a big chunk of Damp's PT away.

I think you should just say that the Mavs rape the Spurs

[ffadicted]

I don't know what the you guys are talking about, in this season, this is what josh howard has done against the spurs:

10 PPG
27.8% from the field (!!)
1 assist and 4.5 rebounds

Certainly a small sample size, but clearly this isn't the Josh that we're used to anymore, the guy is having a season. The upgrade is clear now stop making up reasons to help us sleep at night lol

[spurtech09]

dallas mavs have alot of talent now.....there going to be even better but the dallas mavs still won't win a championship......

[HarlemHeat37]

How the does Brendon Haywood warrant so much hype? Does anyone remember what a huge bust this guy was considered to be? He was Darko before Darko. He was Kwame Brown bad. Sure, he has improved marginally, but he has to be hitting the ceiling of his potential. You don't suck for 5 years and just turn into a monster. It doesn't happen. This guy is just going to cut into Erica's time and yield the same results.
I'm not sweating the Mavs any more or less because of this trade.

I already knew you were an idiot, but seriously?!..

Haywood was the 20th pick in the draft, in what world is he considered a bust?..I've NEVER heard anybody call him a bust, let alone putting him near the same category as a Darko or Kwame..seriously, you're going to compare him to guys like that? LOL..

He had a breakout year 2 years ago and was on the way up, he was only held back by his coach having so much love for Etan Thomas(similar to Pop's love for numerous players on our team) which led to multiple altercations between the 2..he was then held back by a major injury last year that forced him to miss most of the year..Haywood has been considered a great 1 on 1 post defender for years now, this is common knowledge..this season he has finally gotten the bulk of playing time and he has clearly responded..

Seriously though, a bust?!..the 20th pick that has been solid for them?!..you're the same guy that thinks Antawn Jamison isn't a bad defender, so it isn't THAT surprising, but damn..

[TD 21]

But why are the Mavs behind the Spurs if they have beaten them twice? You never answered that.
btw you are the only spurfan who seems to have this opinion in this thread. Must spurfans are rational.

Who gives a ? This is what I'm talking about with you obviously being a novice fan. In '07, the Cavs beat the Spurs 2-0 in the season series; what happened in the Finals? Last year, the Magic did the same to the Lakers; what happened in the Finals? This year, the Cavs did the same to the Lakers; should the two make the Finals, who will be the favorites?

I'm very rational and like I told you before, I don't give a who has the same opinion as me or not. Unlike you and many, it's not about going along with what's popular for me. I know the game and I've already explained why I didn't like the Mavs chances against the Spurs in a playoff series (pre-trade). Most Spurs fans get carried away with Nowitzki and treat him like a top five player because he's destroyed the undersized, unathletic cadre of wings the Spurs have thrown at him for years.