"We didn't win the game, but I saw what I wanted to see" - Kobe Bryant

[JamStone]

Before you should look at a couple of simple concepts:

- pace.

- it's not about the shooting. Gasol isn't even American, he doesn't care that much about scoring numbers and hoisting shots. It's the balance, stupid.

Pace is a factor, but it wouldn't have changed those numbers much at all except for guys like Amare and Chauncey, and they would then actually bring their FGA down closer to Pau's, not changing what I'm trying to show.

Of course it's not only about shooting. That's why I included Pau's assist numbers and free throw attempts, to help more accurately show his "touches."

I'm not denying that Kobe can and sometimes is a ballhog. He is. But, it's way over-exaggerated. And, showing how little difference there is between Pau's numbers now and when he was a #1 option helps show why Pau is actually just being a .

And, I'll repeat, there is balance on offense because of the triangle. Everyone gets touches. It's what they do when they get the ball that determines shot attempts and ultimately the balance Pau is crying about. Now of course Kobe breaks off from the triangle and takes quick shots from time to time. But the triangle forces other players to get opportunities as well. That's why I think it's just lame ing on Pau's part. He gets his touches. The bigs get their touches. Be more aggressive when they get the ball, and the balance will come.

[cobbler]

Where are all the Pau is throwing his teammate under the bus in the media pundits?

[mogrovejo]

[quote=JamStone;4145377]
And, I'll repeat, there is balance on offense because of the triangle.[quote]

Do you guys a) know what the triangle offence is and b) watch the Lakers games?

What's the % of the possessions in which the Lakers run triple post sets?

[diego]

yeah i can agree with that, but the lakers are better when they spread their attack. sometimes they do and sometimes they don't, and as 1st option Kobe has a lot to do with that.

[JamStone]

[QUOTE=mogrovejo;4145570][quote=JamStone;4145377]
And, I'll repeat, there is balance on offense because of the triangle.

Do you guys a) know what the triangle offence is and b) watch the Lakers games?

What's the % of the possessions in which the Lakers run triple post sets?

Yes to both question. I don't have NBA League Pass so not all Lakers games, but they're on national TV all the time and I watch those games.

I don't know where to find that % statistic.

As for them actually running the triangle in their half court sets, obviously not including possessions out of transition or delays fast break opportunities, from what I've seen, they still primarily run the triangle on most of their half court sets. Players sometimes break off plays or might exploit a mismatch, but if I were to guess, I'd probably say anywhere from 65-75% of the Lakers' half court sets still start out in the triangle.

[RsxPiimp]

Huh?

Fact: In games where Kobe shot 40% or below, LA didn't win all their games - not even close to it.

What's wrong with you?

Fact: I never said LA won ALL their games when Kobe shot 40% or below. I merely took a quick sample size showing you that Kobe's FG% is not the best way to asses this talented Laker team.


Also, comparing 40% or below is different from specifically comparing it to just below 40%.

Why are you holding Artest to such a standard? Artest was never a good shooter. Why are you holding him responsible for his bad shooting when he's having a career year in terms of shooting? He's exceeding expectations and you're saying he isn't doing enough? You're nuts. .

Im holding Artest to a 4th or 5th option standard. Shooting 28% is aweful no matter how you look at it. For a player whose been getting a lot of open looks and is failing to connect, that's concerning. Also, he's not exceeding expectations offensively haha. Ask any Laker fan.


I told you watching games can be quite beneficial.

Look, I dont' know if he's going to adjust his game. What happened in the past is irrelevant because Kobe is declining quickly.

You're right, you dont know. That past was not too distant, before his injury Kobe was averaging 31 PPG, 49% FG shooting for 37 games.

So he can't keep playing the same way he played in the past, even after adjusting for the playoffs. But I'm not discussing the future; I'm discussing your statement that Fisher and Artest are the main responsibles for the Lakers lack of consistent outside shooting. That's just inane, especially when Kobe is shooting 31% from 3. The fact that you aren't able to admit you were wrong on calling out Artest and sparing Kobe is quite telling.

Kobe will adjust. No reason to believe he's not going to do it again. He won championships as the best facilitator, closer and scorer.


You're also not going anywhere with your argument defending Fishers 38% shooting and Artest's 37% FG and 28% 3FG during the Lakers 5-5 run to prove your case against the teams best and reliable perimeter shooter. At this point you're just being stubborn to accept that you're position is wrong.

[RsxPiimp]

Gasol doesnt know what to do when he has the ball, you give it to him and he'll quickly pass it outside. His bread and butter move in the post is non existent and he allows physical players to habitually abuse him in the post. Gasol has not been the same so far this year.

[Banzai]

Gasol doesnt know what to do when he has the ball, you give it to him and he'll quickly pass it outside. His bread and butter move in the post is non existent and he allows physical players to habitually abuse him in the post. Gasol has not been the same so far this year.

from what I see..Gasol catches the ball and just fakes like he's going to shoot then he passes. Most of the time anyways.

[NBAfan83]

It's perspective though. There are Kobe haters and critics that make it seem like Kobe never passes the ball. Some try to make it seem like Kobe shoots it every time he touches it. It's simply not true. Now can he be a ballhog? Sure. Has he every been a ballhog? Absolutely.

First, I said some of those players could also be considered first options as well.

Second, Gasol was averaging 2-3 offensive rebounds when he was a first option. So the difference might be 1 or 1.5 offensive rebounds. That doesn't skew the numbers that much.

Third, you can absolutely compare FGA of guards and bigs when they are not the first option. But, more than anything, it's too give perspective when you look at "approximately" how many touches a player gets.

Fourth, I blame Pau for ing publicly. Pau helped the Lakers, but Kobe was still the main guy and main reason for them winning it all. And it's hard to say Pau was more efficient, like you say it's hard to compare FGA between guards and bigs, since most of Pau's field goals are closer to the rim and when Kobe also shoots three pointers and often has to take bailout shots when the shot clock is winding down and against tougher contests.

Fifth, with fewer touches to go around and Pau still getting basically the same amount of touches as he did last year, why is he ing?

Lastly, then Pau should demand the ball. We hear and read him complain in the media, and when he's on the court, he plays like a pussy and won't demand the ball. Demand the ing ball.

He's averaging close to 4 right now, so if you take out 4 shots, his True FGA comes down from 13 to 9. So imagine if I told you that your second option is taking 9 FGA, and let's not joke ourselves, Gasol is the second option and he doesn't need to take more shots than Kobe, but it should at least be at a respectable clip. I can almost guarantee if you brought over a scoring PG to the lakers, you'd see about the same FGA as pau is getting. And it's not like Pau has no post game like Dwight Howard, Pau's offensive game is one of the best in the league, he can get his shot.

For me ing publically isn't such a big deal since PJ and Kobe do it also, as well as lamar odom when it was just him and Kobe. Who cares if he complains, it's not like he is making up, what he is saying does have some merit to it. And besides Pau is just saying simply that it would probably be easier and lead to more blowouts of weaker teams if LA just played team ball. Considering their only weakness is the PG position, do you think maybe playing team ball offensively, would help with team ball defensively. Maybe those quick small point guards would stop killing the lakers then.

I don't want to bother looking it up, but do you think possibly the lakers are playing at a faster pace, thus more possessions are being created? I don't know though, you'd have to check that stat out.

TBH, I think it all boils down to Kobe's mentality of being the Main man to win a championship. Sure they won it last year, but ppl are saying, Kobe can't do it without a dominant big man, or Kobe can't win without Pau, it is possible that Kobe is relegating Pau as just another role player while Kobe single handedly brought LA the championship. Hey, honestly who knows what goes thru the mind of Kobe Bryant.

But here is a fact, just because you criticize a person, doesn't make you a hater, because, who says you can only view one side of the same coin?

[DazedAndConfused]

It's funny how obsessed some of you are with the Lakers.

For a team many of you hate and deem "worthless" they certainly attract a lot of your attention.

The bottom line is the champs don't have to prove jack in the regular season. It's the playoffs that separates the men from the boys.

[TheSpursFNRule]

Funny how Kome gobblers bring up the 34 points he scored, but not the 30 shots he took to get there...

Thats because most LA fans are dumb NBA fans who like the team that is doing best at the time. Is there anything worse than a dumb bball fan? Basketball is the most NAKED sport, if a player is ing up its right in front you, there is no padding or helmets or masks to hide it. I just don't understand how LA fans aren't seeing Kobe jacking up some of the worst shots.

[JamStone]

He's averaging close to 4 right now, so if you take out 4 shots, his True FGA comes down from 13 to 9. So imagine if I told you that your second option is taking 9 FGA, and let's not joke ourselves, Gasol is the second option and he doesn't need to take more shots than Kobe, but it should at least be at a respectable clip. I can almost guarantee if you brought over a scoring PG to the lakers, you'd see about the same FGA as pau is getting. And it's not like Pau has no post game like Dwight Howard, Pau's offensive game is one of the best in the league, he can get his shot.

Couple of things about your logic. An offensive rebound doesn't automatically mean Gasol always goes right up with a putback. Moreover, if you do the same thing with his offensive rebounding when he was in Memphis and subtract his offensive rebounds from his FGA, then as a Memphis Grizzly, he would have averaged only 11 field goal attempts per game as mostly a number 1 option. If as a number 1 option he only averaged 11 FGA (based on your logic), then 9 FGA as a second option seems more than reasonable. The joke is actually your logic.

For me ing publically isn't such a big deal since PJ and Kobe do it also, as well as lamar odom when it was just him and Kobe. Who cares if he complains, it's not like he is making up, what he is saying does have some merit to it. And besides Pau is just saying simply that it would probably be easier and lead to more blowouts of weaker teams if LA just played team ball. Considering their only weakness is the PG position, do you think maybe playing team ball offensively, would help with team ball defensively. Maybe those quick small point guards would stop killing the lakers then.

I don't think it's a huge deal. But I still think he should just shut the up about it. The Lakers have the second best record in the league and are coming off a championship season. A couple losses where he gets pushed around but doesn't get what he feels is enough touches is something that doesn't need to thrown out in the media. Kobe ed when the team wasn't winning les and wasn't one of the best teams in the league. Pau just sounds like a . Kobe's a ballhog. He has been his entire career. When the Lakers have had success, Kobe has managed to play enough "team ball" to help them win. There's no indication that he won't again when it matters in the playoffs.

I don't want to bother looking it up, but do you think possibly the lakers are playing at a faster pace, thus more possessions are being created? I don't know though, you'd have to check that stat out.

The Lakers pace is actually slower this season than last season, but it's about the same. There are actually fewer possessions this season than for last year's championship Laker team. Pau is taking 0.2 fewer field goal attempts this year than last year, 0.5 fewer free throws, and has the same assist numbers. He's getting virtually the same amount of touches as last year. He should shut the up.

TBH, I think it all boils down to Kobe's mentality of being the Main man to win a championship. Sure they won it last year, but ppl are saying, Kobe can't do it without a dominant big man, or Kobe can't win without Pau, it is possible that Kobe is relegating Pau as just another role player while Kobe single handedly brought LA the championship. Hey, honestly who knows what goes thru the mind of Kobe Bryant.

But here is a fact, just because you criticize a person, doesn't make you a hater, because, who says you can only view one side of the same coin?

Criticizing a player doesn't make you a hater. Obsessing incessantly over that player over every single little thing does and trying to find every little criticism to hate on him does.

[NBAfan83]

Couple of things about your logic. An offensive rebound doesn't automatically mean Gasol always goes right up with a putback. Moreover, if you do the same thing with his offensive rebounding when he was in Memphis and subtract his offensive rebounds from his FGA, then as a Memphis Grizzly, he would have averaged only 11 field goal attempts per game as mostly a number 1 option. If as a number 1 option he only averaged 11 FGA (based on your logic), then 9 FGA as a second option seems more than reasonable. The joke is actually your logic.




I don't think it's a huge deal. But I still think he should just shut the up about it. The Lakers have the second best record in the league and are coming off a championship season. A couple losses where he gets pushed around but doesn't get what he feels is enough touches is something that doesn't need to thrown out in the media. Kobe ed when the team wasn't winning les and wasn't one of the best teams in the league. Pau just sounds like a . Kobe's a ballhog. He has been his entire career. When the Lakers have had success, Kobe has managed to play enough "team ball" to help them win. There's no indication that he won't again when it matters in the playoffs.




The Lakers pace is actually slower this season than last season, but it's about the same. There are actually fewer possessions this season than for last year's championship Laker team. Pau is taking 0.2 fewer field goal attempts this year than last year, 0.5 fewer free throws, and has the same assist numbers. He's getting virtually the same amount of touches as last year. He should shut the up.




Criticizing a player doesn't make you a hater. Obsessing incessantly over that player over every single little thing does and trying to find every little criticism to hate on him does.

Maybe that's why he's complaining? cuz he never got more than 11 in his career and he'd like to get more recognition, he's only spain's best player after all, and we know gasol cares more about euro recognition.

Meh for me you can get annoyed with Pau, but no denying his impt to that team so i'm sure they take his words into consideration, we will see anyway on lakers nxt game.

fans obsess about a lot of players, Kobe just has a few more stalkers than any other players, what do you expect next to MJ, he is the next most recognizable player in the NBA, as many haters he has, he has as much knobslobbers.

[jimo2305]

lol.. gosh im gettin too old and slow for these forums..

[icem]

kobe saw what he wanted, but his teammates didnt.... PASS THE ROCK MOFO

[mogrovejo]

Fact: I never said LA won ALL their games when Kobe shot 40% or below.

Man, you jumped the shark. Either you're under medication or you need to see a doctor ASAP.

1. Click on this link:
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost...7&postcount=53

2. Read your own post.

3. Re-read this sentence:

IN games where Kobe shot 40% or below, LA still won all their games.

Shall we repeat?

Here's what you wrote at 12:55pm:

IN games where Kobe shot 40% or below, LA still won all their games.

Here's what you wrote at 09:33pm:

I never said LA won ALL their games when Kobe shot 40% or below.

Again, side by side:

IN games where Kobe shot 40% or below, LA still won all their games. I never said LA won ALL their games when Kobe shot 40% or below.

I mean, mental lapsus or lapsus linguae or change of opinions or momentarily lack of short term memory happen to everybody (it happens to me a lot), but this isn't one of those cases. You were confronted with the fact that you wrote 2 mutually exclusive things and yet . You seem one of those kids who screws up and just closes his eyes and starts singing aloud. That's not a good way of facing life as an adult. If you're already 12 years old or older and you still have this kind of behaviour, I think you should talk to your parents and tell them about this. You'll have problems in the future if you don't deal with this quick. Ignore my advise at your own peril.

Im holding Artest to a 4th or 5th option standard. Shooting 28% is aweful no matter how you look at it.

Artest is shooting 38% from 3s. Taking a 5 game sample where the player is slumping to make a point is pathetic and too childish to merit an answer.

You're also not going anywhere with your argument defending Fishers 38% shooting and Artest's 37% FG and 28% 3FG during the Lakers 5-5 run to prove your case against the teams best and reliable perimeter shooter..

Kobe is shooting 31% from 3.

Fisher is shooting 35% from 3.

Artest is shooting 38% from 3.

Man, you're in denial. You need to start facing reality. I remember the game 5 of the 1990 playoffs vs. the Knicks. It was when I was forced to bring myself to accept Larry Legend's mortality. Sure it hurts, but it's part of life. Do it quickly.

[ChrisRichards]

Kobe is shooting 31% from 3.

Fisher is shooting 35% from 3.

Artest is shooting 38% from 3.

Man, you're in denial. You need to start facing reality. I remember the game 5 of the 1990 playoffs vs. the Knicks. It was when I was forced to bring myself to accept Larry Legend's mortality. Sure it hurts, but it's part of life. Do it quickly.

I think you're missing his point. He said Artest is shooting 28% the last 10 games beyond the line where the Lakers clearly struggled the most, why do you keep bringing up Artests' average for the full season? You're just not getting it.

[mogrovejo]

I think you're missing his point. He said Artest is shooting 28% the last 10 games beyond the line where the Lakers clearly struggled the most, why do you keep bringing up Artests' average for the full season? You're just not getting it.

Again? Have you read the posts? If the Lakers are expecting Artest to shoot consistently above 30% they were delusional. A 10 games stretch shooting bellow 30% is pretty normal for a player like Artest.

And the Lakers offense isn't struggling more than usual in the last 10 games.