Addition by Manu and Subtraction: Why Jefferson Failed

[Ginobilly]

I for one am tired of watching games and hearing about how we live and die by the three ball. I like the easy buckets, the layups and dunks by Hill and RJ that happen after everyone has touched the ball. I hate seeing the pick and roll and the kick out to RMJ for another brick.

Me too!!! I want 2003-2005 Spurs basketball when everybody would drive,drive,drive towards the basket and either get fouled, or pass it up to a big man for an easy dunk/layup.

[ChumpDumper]

Any new lineup that works against elite teams will bring a breeze of fresh air to all Spurs Fans!

Let's not act like it has already happened.

I hope we are turning the corner and will show success against top teams.

From your mouth to whatever.

[Parker2112]

RJ has never had the opportunity to make a drive because of Tony?



Seriously, Bonner has been driving more lately than RJ did at the start of the season..

I am beginning to think RJ's only use is flying out on the break. He cant post with any authority, and teams can take away his driving lanes all game long.

But I will say that parker kills his transition opportunities.

[murpjf88]

With all respect, I'll put some of my intellectual property on the table here at no cost just to illuminate some naive posters.... obviously since our articles were forbidden here, the forums isn't the same.............................................. . you idiots can't measure what the team has done without Parker untill they play some real teams.... they have played scrub during this stretch. jezz

Simple minds think simple solution.

[beachwood]

There is nothing here that says Parker sucks. It is just a matter of fact that some players need help in creating their shot. Players like Parker and Manu can create their own shot. The fact that Manu is better than Parker in helping others create their shot does not mean that Parker sucks. It does mean that Parker is better suited to be on the floor with guys who do not need to score to be effective.

Bingo. That's it right there. Parker needs to be surrounded by more traditional drive and kick players; Mason, Bonner, etc. Players that are comfortable in a pick and role situation and know where the open spots will be; that are comfortable shooting set shots.

RJ is not that kind of player. He seems to thrive in free flowing offenses.

I don't think it's a matter of whether Parker or Manu is better; it's about the type of players they are. Manu creates in a more chaotic style; Parker a straight line.

[Parker2112]

Bingo. That's it right there. Parker needs to be surrounded by more traditional drive and kick players; Mason, Bonner, etc. Players that are comfortable in a pick and role situation and know where the open spots will be; that are comfortable shooting set shots.

RJ is not that kind of player. He seems to thrive in free flowing offenses.

As does Blair, Manu, Hill, Malik, and I would argue Dice as well.

I don't think it's a matter of whether Parker or Manu is better; it's about the type of players they are.

Your wisdom exceeds the scope of these humble villagers' understanding...

[z0sa]

"freeflowing" offense makes every basketball look better. Look what having a very talented pass first PG and a high tempo offense in Phoenix does and has done for scrubs for years.

RJ proved last season he can score without a HOF PG or a high octane offense.

[ploto]

I love Manu and am admittedly not all that fond of Tony personally-speaking, but threads like these are just ridiculous. Tony Parker shoots under orders from Pop. He is supposed to look to score.

Play Manu and RJ off the bench together- along with Blair, Malik and whomever else you are so sure Manu mixes well with. Problem solved. Tony will start with Tim always.

[silverblk mystix]

hate to sound like a simpleton...

but I love both Tony & Manu's game...I think there is a bit of truth to the OP initial post---but don't think Tony is the problem...

I think this will be Pop's greatest challenge when Tony returns---to assist in the continuing gelling of the team---instead of hindering it...to orchestrate the RIGHT combinations and turn the different styles into a dangerous team...

I don't see it as an insult to parker---or his fans---to suggest that Manu makes other players around him better....Manu has a unique skillset and it is wonderful to witness when he is in top form...

TP has his own skillset and I would venture to say---that he may be even better offensively than Manu...

the fact that BOTH are on the spurs is one of the biggest blessings that the spurs have---and I FAIL to see how this has become a TP vs Manu thing...

[E-RockWill]

me too!!! i want 2003-2005 spurs basketball when everybody would drive,drive,drive towards the basket and either get fouled, or pass it up to a big man for an easy dunk/layup.

+1

[Parker2112]

I love Manu and am admittedly not all that fond of Tony personally-speaking, but threads like these are just ridiculous. Tony Parker shoots under orders from Pop. He is supposed to look to score.

Play Manu and RJ off the bench together- along with Blair, Malik and whomever else you are so sure Manu mixes well with. Problem solved. Tony will start with Tim always.

I agree with everything here. Understand that this became a Tony Parker discussion when a Parker fan piped in immediately to defend his boy. It was originally about much more than that.

As for the last part, my question to you is: when should the team stop accomodating Tony's skillset and when should Pop began to ask him to accomodate the skills of others?

[Parker2112]

hate to sound like a simpleton...

but I love both Tony & Manu's game...I think there is a bit of truth to the OP initial post---but don't think Tony is the problem...

I think this will be Pop's greatest challenge when Tony returns---to assist in the continuing gelling of the team---instead of hindering it...to orchestrate the RIGHT combinations and turn the different styles into a dangerous team...

I don't see it as an insult to parker---or his fans---to suggest that Manu makes other players around him better....Manu has a unique skillset and it is wonderful to witness when he is in top form...

TP has his own skillset and I would venture to say---that he may be even better offensively than Manu...

the fact that BOTH are on the spurs is one of the biggest blessings that the spurs have---and I FAIL to see how this has become a TP vs Manu thing...

See Timvp's post, response #1.

[HarlemHeat37]

It appears to me that the FO banked on RJ's shooting to continue improving like it did last season..he shot 46% off jump shots last season, the highest of his career..while it isn't significantly higher when you simply look at the %, it's much higher when you consider that he took a lot more jump shots last season than he ever had before..he took more jump shots last season and he has more inside points this season, so while he could drive more, it wouldn't make a huge difference..he can't consistently get by his man off the dribble anymore, he doesn't have the same athleticism that he used to pre-injuries..

Looking at it now, it appears that his hot shooting last season was an anomaly..he shot 40% from 3s last season despite taking more attempts than he ever had before..this is probably the biggest factor, at least IMO..it looks like the FO was banking on this..his jump shot % is down 3% despite shooting less jump shots, and his 3-point shooting % is down by 6%..

While it would help him a lot if the Spurs got more transition opportunities, the FO shouldn't have acquired a player that only scores in those types of situations and expected him to become the missing piece for the Spurs..a "missing piece" shouldn't be a player that needs to run to be effective..we can have that in Hairston or any other athletic wing..

Jefferson has never been a guy that you could give the ball to and create on a consistent basis, especially post-injuries..I hadn't watched the Bucks play and I assumed that RJ's game had evolved a little by looking at his raw numbers, but this appears to be false..also combined with the shooting anomaly, like I said before..

The Spurs needed a 4th guy that could create for himself and his teammates, but they went out and acquired a guy that plays like a Shawn Marion-type at this point, minus the defense..

Jefferson isn't THIS bad and he'll be better if he goes to a worse team that runs more, he's a guy that will continue to lose effectiveness as a player as his athleticism continues to decline though..thankfully, he's finally starting to rebound and show some intensity lately, but he's not the type of guy that a team with le aspirations can rely upon..

The biggest difference between last year's Jefferson and this year's is simply shooting..it has very little to do with calling plays for him and getting more transition opportunities..it has very little to do with somebody creating for him..he's getting more open looks and more assisted opportunities this season, but he simply isn't making any shots..the only thing we can really hope for at this point is for him to get hot and shoot like he did last season..

Based on previous years, it would be accurate to say that Jefferson's shooting last season, particularly from outside the arc, was probably an anomaly..we'll have to hope that he can somehow peak at the right time from a shooting standpoint..

It was obvious that he had lost athleticism the last few years, especially lateral quickness, but it appears that the FO was banking on his "improved" shooting to make up for it..I won't say it was a bad read, because it's happened to many front offices, but it appears that it was a fluke for the most part..

[ploto]

when should the team stop accomodating Tony's skillset and when should Pop began to ask him to accomodate the skills of others?

Who says this does not already happen? Pop wanted Tony to improve his jump shot to be more of a threat in the offense the Spurs run. Tony did so, and now some people seem pissed when he shoots like he is supposed to do.

[Parker2112]

It appears to me that the FO banked on RJ's shooting to continue improving like it did last season..he shot 46% off jump shots last season, the highest of his career..while it isn't significantly higher when you simply look at the %, it's much higher when you consider that he took a lot more jump shots last season than he ever had before..he took more jump shots last season and he has more inside points this season..

Looking at it now, it appears that his hot shooting last season was an anomaly..he shot 40% from 3s last season despite taking more attempts than he ever had before..this is probably the biggest factor, at least IMO..it looks like the FO was banking on this..his jump shot % is down 3% despite shooting less jump shots, and his 3-point shooting % is down by 6%..

While it would help him a lot if the Spurs got more transition opportunities, the FO shouldn't have acquired a player that only scores in those types of situations and expected him to become the missing piece for the Spurs..a "missing piece" shouldn't be a player that needs to run to be effective..we can have that in Hairston or any other athletic wing..

Jefferson has never been a guy that you could give the ball to and create on a consistent basis, especially post-injuries..I hadn't watched the Bucks play and I assumed that RJ's game had evolved a little by looking at his raw numbers, but this appears to be false..also combined with the shooting anomaly, like I said before..

The Spurs needed a 4th guy that could create for himself and his teammates, but they went out and acquired a guy that plays like a Shawn Marion-type..

Jefferson isn't THIS bad and he'll be better if he goes to a worse team that runs more, he's a guy that will continue to lose effectiveness as a player as his athleticism continues to decline though..thankfully, he's finally starting to rebound and show some intensity lately, but he's not the type of guy that a team with le aspirations can rely upon..

The biggest difference between last year's Jefferson and this year's is simply shooting..it has very little to do with calling plays for him and getting more transition opportunities..it has very little to do with somebody creating for him..he's getting more open looks and more assisted opportunities this season, but he simply isn't making any shots..the only thing we can really hope for at this point is for him to get hot and shoot like he did last season..

Based on previous years, it would be accurate to say that Jefferson's shooting last season, particularly from outside the arc, was probably an anomaly..we'll have to hope that he can somehow peak at the right time from a shooting standpoint..

With more movement RJ would have more opportunities to attack the rim as defenses were not allowed to stay set against the two-man Parker/Duncan show while three guys held a spacing cusion and waited for a chance to brick.

As for RJ's shooting, he is one of a long line of guys who have come to the Spurs with the ability to shoot, only to see Pop's approach wring out every bit of confidence they may have had previously.

[z0sa]

Who says this does not already happen? Pop wanted Tony to improve his jump shot to be more of a threat in the offense the Spurs run. Tony did so, and now some people seem pissed when he shoots like he is supposed to do.

Parker's jumpshot has been MIA this season.

And what happened to shooting 3's? Parker apparently decided shooting 3's will never be a regular part of his game.

[Trainwreck2100]

Ginobili rules, Parker sucks

hmm interesting

[Parker2112]

Who says this does not already happen? Pop wanted Tony to improve his jump shot to be more of a threat in the offense the Spurs run. Tony did so, and now some people seem pissed when he shoots like he is supposed to do.

Tony's percentage on the jumper is as bad as it has ever been, if not worse. I don't claim to know why.

Pop and Tony seemed to have a disconnect right aroud the holidays, when Tony gave an interview insinuating that he didnt know what Pop wanted from him. The fact was that Tony was have trouble getting a feel for the new guys, and could not add "passer" to his resume. I think his quote ran something along the lines of (from memory) "first Pop wants me to shoot, then he wants me to pass..." "it feels like my rookie year all over..."

Pop doesnt want to rock the boat as far as Tony and Timmy are concerned. But if he doesnt I contend that we are headed for a cliff. The new guys will never be integrated if Tony continues running the starting point. Bench him, make him shooting guard, whatever, but we need to start developing the talent that will transition us beyond the Duncan era.

[Parker2112]

hmm interesting

[murpjf88]

It appears to me that the FO banked on RJ's shooting to continue improving like it did last season..he shot 46% off jump shots last season, the highest of his career..while it isn't significantly higher when you simply look at the %, it's much higher when you consider that he took a lot more jump shots last season than he ever had before..he took more jump shots last season and he has more inside points this season, so while he could drive more, it wouldn't make a huge difference..he can't consistently get by his man off the dribble anymore, he doesn't have the same athleticism that he used to pre-injuries..

Looking at it now, it appears that his hot shooting last season was an anomaly..he shot 40% from 3s last season despite taking more attempts than he ever had before..this is probably the biggest factor, at least IMO..it looks like the FO was banking on this..his jump shot % is down 3% despite shooting less jump shots, and his 3-point shooting % is down by 6%..

While it would help him a lot if the Spurs got more transition opportunities, the FO shouldn't have acquired a player that only scores in those types of situations and expected him to become the missing piece for the Spurs..a "missing piece" shouldn't be a player that needs to run to be effective..we can have that in Hairston or any other athletic wing..

Jefferson has never been a guy that you could give the ball to and create on a consistent basis, especially post-injuries..I hadn't watched the Bucks play and I assumed that RJ's game had evolved a little by looking at his raw numbers, but this appears to be false..also combined with the shooting anomaly, like I said before..

The Spurs needed a 4th guy that could create for himself and his teammates, but they went out and acquired a guy that plays like a Shawn Marion-type at this point, minus the defense..

Jefferson isn't THIS bad and he'll be better if he goes to a worse team that runs more, he's a guy that will continue to lose effectiveness as a player as his athleticism continues to decline though..thankfully, he's finally starting to rebound and show some intensity lately, but he's not the type of guy that a team with le aspirations can rely upon..

The biggest difference between last year's Jefferson and this year's is simply shooting..it has very little to do with calling plays for him and getting more transition opportunities..it has very little to do with somebody creating for him..he's getting more open looks and more assisted opportunities this season, but he simply isn't making any shots..the only thing we can really hope for at this point is for him to get hot and shoot like he did last season..

Based on previous years, it would be accurate to say that Jefferson's shooting last season, particularly from outside the arc, was probably an anomaly..we'll have to hope that he can somehow peak at the right time from a shooting standpoint..

It was obvious that he had lost athleticism the last few years, especially lateral quickness, but it appears that the FO was banking on his "improved" shooting to make up for it..I won't say it was a bad read, because it's happened to many front offices, but it appears that it was a fluke for the most part..

Finally, someone who gets it.

[whottt]

The le of this thread looks su ioiusly like a Buck Harvey headline.

Sposed to not happen anymore dammit

[Parker2112]

The le of this thread looks su ioiusly like a Buck Harvey headline.

Sposed to not happen anymore dammit

If he copies it I will promptly send a cease and desist letter.

[Express-News]

Lol I'm here ....

[kjhip1]

The one thing I think everyone can seem to agree on here is that with the addition of Malik, Ian (somewhat), and Cedric Jackson into the lineup the past 2-3 games we see players desperately playing D for minutes they play. I think POP's focus with his young players is that they concentrate on making correct defensive swithces and staying in front of thier man. POP wants D more then anything else. What's surprising is that all three are from the D-league and actually have a NBA ready game. Malik looks consdierably better and comfortable on offense. Ian looks to help on weak side and defends the basket at all costs. Cedric looks like he's trying to make up for his size (weight wize) with his long arms on the Defensive side.

Getting back to having Manu and RJ on the floor: its appears as though Rj likes the more uptempo style and immediately looks to drive when the game is fast paced. I beleive his offense will have to pick up come playoff time but really I'm more concentrated on him being the defender and rebounder he has been in the last couple of games. We know he can dunk and drive on the fastbreaks, but fundamentals he needs to get back to. Jefferson really is the X-factor. I think that this team is better then last year's if you want to talk about not having Manu as compared to not having TP. TP's points points can be replaced by the addtions to the team. His D is really not all that great. However, it still does help to have an all-star caliber player dressed to play then not at all. If Jefferson and Bonner will show up during the playoffs, then we have a chance. Manu looks to be back and Tim will do what he does for the playoffs. No matter who we face, we will have a chnace. So really all this one and done and play for the lottery type talk is garbage and TRUE Spurs fans need to keep the faith. The Spurs have been under the radar all season mostly due to injuries and players adapting to one of the most difficult schemes in the NBA. There is a reason to POP's madness, and he'll put out a lineup ready for the playoffs. After all, he has coached us to four championships, right?

[tp2021]

The one thing I think everyone can seem to agree on here is that with the addition of Malik, Ian (somewhat), and Cedric Jackson into the lineup the past 2-3 games we see players desperately playing D for minutes they play. I think POP's focus with his young players is that they concentrate on making correct defensive swithces and staying in front of thier man. POP wants D more then anything else. What's surprising is that all three are from the D-league and actually have a NBA ready game. Malik looks consdierably better and comfortable on offense. Ian looks to help on weak side and defends the basket at all costs. Cedric looks like he's trying to make up for his size (weight wize) with his long arms on the Defensive side.

Getting back to having Manu and RJ on the floor: its appears as though Rj likes the more uptempo style and immediately looks to drive when the game is fast paced. I beleive his offense will have to pick up come playoff time but really I'm more concentrated on him being the defender and rebounder he has been in the last couple of games. We know he can dunk and drive on the fastbreaks, but fundamentals he needs to get back to. Jefferson really is the X-factor. I think that this team is better then last year's if you want to talk about not having Manu as compared to not having TP. TP's points points can be replaced by the addtions to the team. His D is really not all that great. However, it still does help to have an all-star caliber player dressed to play then not at all. If Jefferson and Bonner will show up during the playoffs, then we have a chance. Manu looks to be back and Tim will do what he does for the playoffs. No matter who we face, we will have a chnace. So really all this one and done and play for the lottery type talk is garbage and TRUE Spurs fans need to keep the faith. The Spurs have been under the radar all season mostly due to injuries and players adapting to one of the most difficult schemes in the NBA. There is a reason to POP's madness, and he'll put out a lineup ready for the playoffs. After all, he has coached us to four championships, right?

You probably lost most of the people that were in agreement with you right there.