is manu a hof

[JamStone]

http://www.thebasketballworld.com/to...u_ginobili.htm

There's more discussion in the NBA section. The award isn't given by Olympics. If it's even a tangible award, it's by FIBA. But I don't think it's a real award at all. Is there any hardware attached to it. People on here suggest there is. I'd like to know.

[urunobili]

Yes. His Yugoslavian Junior National team won the World Junior Championship in 1987. In the championship game against Team USA's Junior National team, Toni hit 11 three-pointers. Toni was 18 at the time.Good info.

should I bring all the Junior south American championships Manu won too

[DAF86]

So Manu didn't win anything in a weaker league in three years?

Cool.

He was a teeneger.

[Sec24Row7]

Manu is just as much a lock as Duncan.

[Old School 44]

You can't have it both ways.

Pretty much everyone who believes Ginobili will go to the HOF will do so based on the merits of his international career and not because of his NBA career. If that's the case, then you look at Kukoc's international career and his is as if not more impressive than Manu's. You can't make an addendum argument that Manu's NBA career was better when the initial argument for Manu being a HOF is based on his international career. Most even agree that on his NBA career alone, Manu would not be a HOF. Don't add that into the equation to make a distinction when that's not why Manu could be in the HOF.

And you cannot argue that had Manu stayed in Europe, his resume would be as impressive as Kukoc because they both came to the NBA at the same age, 25. Poor argument.

Manu and Kukoc should both be in the HOF on the merits of both international and NBA play.

Is Manu better? I think so, but like most on this board that's who I've seen the most. I did watch a lot of the Bulls games during their run, and I'd have to say Manu was more instrumental in the Spurs 3 les, than Kukoc during the Bulls second three-peat. In fairness to Kukoc, playing with Jordan, it's easy for your game to be overlooked.

If Manu and Toni didn't go to established teams, teams with All-time NBA stars, who do you think would have had the better NBA career? Do you think either of them in their prime could have been the franchise player for another NBA team?

[JamStone]

should I bring all the Junior south American championships Manu won too

Sure. Is a Junior South American championship better than a Junior World championship?

[TMTTRIO]

Well Manu's only one of two players to have won a Euroleague le, Olympic Gold Medal, and a NBA Championship.

[JamStone]

Manu and Kukoc should both be in the HOF on the merits of both international and NBA play.

Is Manu better? I think so, but like most on this board that's who I've seen the most. I did watch a lot of the Bulls games during their run, and I'd have to say Manu was more instrumental in the Spurs 3 les, than Kukoc during the Bulls second three-peat. In fairness to Kukoc, playing with Jordan, it's easy for your game to be overlooked.

If Manu and Toni didn't go to established teams, teams with All-time NBA stars, who do you think would have had the better NBA career? Do you think either of them in their prime could have been the franchise player for another NBA team?

This is absolutely a fair assessment.

Personally, it's hard to know who would have had a better NBA career if Toni didn't play with Jordan and Ginobili didn't play with Duncan. But, I do know this. I personally believe it's far easier for Ginobili to have shined playing with an unselfish superstar like Tim Duncan than it was for Kukoc to shine playing with the type of superstar Michael Jordan was.

If we look at the age range of 25-30, had both of them been on teams where they were the focus of their respective teams' offense, I could easily see both being even greater stars than they were/are. Kukoc has similar mismatch nightmare skills as a Dirk Nowitzki. And to me, Manu has the same type of ability as a Dwyane Wade. Both superstar talents. Again, hard to answer your question. One distinction for me is that Ginobili in the NBA to me has always been about winning more than stats. That's why I love the guy so much. He's a do-anything-to-win type of player. I don't know if Kukoc had quite that same mentality. I think Toni could have been a borderline superstar but I'm not sure if he was the franchise player whether he'd be one that would help a team to a championship level. With Ginobili, he might not either, but I have full faith that he would have done everything in his power to help his team become one.

[Mel_13]

My concern is those guys were all defined primarily (sometimes exclusively) as international players. I have some su ion that HoF voters will see Manu primarily as an NBA player and will give short-shrift to his external accomplishments. As I understand it, the BBall HoF utilizes separate screening committees for NBA Players and Int'l Players. My opinion was that Manu will be classified as the former and his endeavors in the latter will not be heavily considered, although that may be a misunderstanding of the screening mechanisms on my part.

Posts like this one are why I like threads like this. If you're open minded, you might read something that makes you think.

I've always been of the opinion that Manu is a lock based on his body of work. I looked at the international players in the HOF and concluded that the totality of Manu's career was superior and, therefore, all but guaranteed future induction.

Looking more closely at the international players that are in the HOF and the convoluted selection process, I can see how Manu might not make it all the way to induction. I still believe he is deserving, but I can see how he might not get in.

Of the male international players already in the HOF, only Petrovic ever played in the NBA. His NBA career, and his life, was tragically cut short. He only played 4 years in the NBA and only two years as an impact player. One wonders if his career would have merited induction if he had retired in 1993 rather than dying so young.

So, one could argue that there really aren't yet any players in the HOF who had a hybrid international/NBA career like Divac, Kukoc, or Manu. On top of that, the International Committee has only been successful in advancing the candidacy of a very small handful of male players over the last two decades. Will they take up Manu's case when they have failed, one would assume, to get others like Oscar Schmidt through the process? Is Manu international enough for the International Committee?

I still believe Manu belongs, but I can see how he could be left out. Much as coming off the bench has probably cost him a few All-Star selections, the hybrid nature of his career resume could cost him a place in the hall. His induction would certainly establish a new precedent.

[oski1000]

Ginobili is the only player in basketball history to win the Euroleague, an Olympic gold medal, and an NBA Championship.

- In 5 seasons in the NBA Manu ginobili played 90 playoffs games, more than most players in their entire career. Of course he also won 3 championships.


Without Manu, Spurs would have just one NBA championship, may be two.

MANU >>> TP

[anakha]

Ginobili is the only player in basketball history to win the Euroleague, an Olympic gold medal, and an NBA Championship.

- In 5 seasons in the NBA Manu ginobili played 90 playoffs games, more than most players in their entire career. Of course he also won 3 championships.


Without Manu, Spurs would have just one NBA championship, may be two.

MANU >>> TP

Not this again.

[DAF86]

Ginobili is the only player in basketball history to win the Euroleague, an Olympic gold medal, and an NBA Championship.

2nd player to do that I bealive, but Manu had a far superior importance on his teams than the other guy that did it before him.

- In 5 seasons in the NBA Manu ginobili played 90 playoffs games, more than most players in their entire career. Of course he also won 3 championships.

That doesn't really help his HoF chances.

Without Manu, Spurs would have just one NBA championship, may be two.

That can't be proven.

MANU >>> TP

And that's random , you do know that we're arguing Manu vs Toni Kukoc, right?

[JamStone]

Posts like this one are why I like threads like this. If you're open minded, you might read something that makes you think.

I've always been of the opinion that Manu is a lock based on his body of work. I looked at the international players in the HOF and concluded that the totality of Manu's career was superior and, therefore, all but guaranteed future induction.

Looking more closely at the international players that are in the HOF and the convoluted selection process, I can see how Manu might not make it all the way to induction. I still believe he is deserving, but I can see how he might not get in.

Of the male international players already in the HOF, only Petrovic ever played in the NBA. His NBA career, and his life, was tragically cut short. He only played 4 years in the NBA and only two years as an impact player. One wonders if his career would have merited induction if he had retired in 1993 rather than dying so young.

So, one could argue that there really aren't yet any players in the HOF who had a hybrid international/NBA career like Divac, Kukoc, or Manu. On top of that, the International Committee has only been successful in advancing the candidacy of a very small handful of male players over the last two decades. Will they take up Manu's case when they have failed, one would assume, to get others like Oscar Schmidt through the process? Is Manu international enough for the International Committee?

I still believe Manu belongs, but I can see how he could be left out. Much as coming off the bench has probably cost him a few All-Star selections, the hybrid nature of his career resume could cost him a place in the hall. His induction would certainly establish a new precedent.

Great post.

[Old School 44]

This is absolutely a fair assessment.

Personally, it's hard to know who would have had a better NBA career if Toni didn't play with Jordan and Ginobili didn't play with Duncan. But, I do know this. I personally believe it's far easier for Ginobili to have shined playing with an unselfish superstar like Tim Duncan than it was for Kukoc to shine playing with the type of superstar Michael Jordan was.

If we look at the age range of 25-30, had both of them been on teams where they were the focus of their respective teams' offense, I could easily see both being even greater stars than they were/are. Kukoc has similar mismatch nightmare skills as a Dirk Nowitzki. And to me, Manu has the same type of ability as a Dwyane Wade. Both superstar talents. Again, hard to answer your question. One distinction for me is that Ginobili in the NBA to me has always been about winning more than stats. That's why I love the guy so much. He's a do-anything-to-win type of player. I don't know if Kukoc had quite that same mentality. I think Toni could have been a borderline superstar but I'm not sure if he was the franchise player whether he'd be one that would help a team to a championship level. With Ginobili, he might not either, but I have full faith that he would have done everything in his power to help his team become one.

Yep, it's hard to do anything in hindsight. I agree with your comparison, Manu just has that unquestioned passion, leave it all on the court mentality, that I'm not sure Kukoc had.

Not that I want it to happen, but I wonder if Manu could have the same type impact on another team late in his career, similar to Nash moving from the Mavs to the Suns?

[Old School 44]

Of the male international players already in the HOF, only Petrovic ever played in the NBA. His NBA career, and his life, was tragically cut short. He only played 4 years in the NBA and only two years as an impact player. One wonders if his career would have merited induction if he had retired in 1993 rather than dying so young.

The difference is today, international players as a whole are much better and are more actively recruited by the NBA. As Stern would say the game is more global. How many international players were playing in the NBA during Petrovic playing days compared to today? How many were stars for their respective teams?

The Spurs, although they weren't the first, are somewhat pioneers in pursuing/developing international talent.

[DAF86]

Posts like this one are why I like threads like this. If you're open minded, you might read something that makes you think.

I've always been of the opinion that Manu is a lock based on his body of work. I looked at the international players in the HOF and concluded that the totality of Manu's career was superior and, therefore, all but guaranteed future induction.

Looking more closely at the international players that are in the HOF and the convoluted selection process, I can see how Manu might not make it all the way to induction. I still believe he is deserving, but I can see how he might not get in.

Of the male international players already in the HOF, only Petrovic ever played in the NBA. His NBA career, and his life, was tragically cut short. He only played 4 years in the NBA and only two years as an impact player. One wonders if his career would have merited induction if he had retired in 1993 rather than dying so young.

So, one could argue that there really aren't yet any players in the HOF who had a hybrid international/NBA career like Divac, Kukoc, or Manu. On top of that, the International Committee has only been successful in advancing the candidacy of a very small handful of male players over the last two decades. Will they take up Manu's case when they have failed, one would assume, to get others like Oscar Schmidt through the process? Is Manu international enough for the International Committee?

I still believe Manu belongs, but I can see how he could be left out. Much as coming off the bench has probably cost him a few All-Star selections, the hybrid nature of his career resume could cost him a place in the hall. His induction would certainly establish a new precedent.

I think that with time, Kukoc and other international players that played in the NBA will get to the Hall (if they have the international accolades to get in, of course)

[santymrc]

2nd player to do that I bealive, but Manu had a far superior importance on his teams than the other guy that did it before him.

WTF? Who's the other guy??????????
Kukoc didn't. hope you're not thinking Oberto did it couse he sure didn't (No Euroleague). Scola didnt (no NBA champ).

Who was it???!?!??

I think you're wrong.

[Mel_13]

The difference is today, international players as a whole are much better and are more actively recruited by the NBA. As Stern would say the game is more global. How many international players were playing in the NBA during Petrovic playing days compared to today? How many were stars for their respective teams?

The Spurs, although they weren't the first, are somewhat pioneers in pursuing/developing international talent.

All true. Now we see international players like Dirk who will go into the HOF based almost entirely on their NBA careers. It will be interesting to see which committee puts Dirk's name forward, the International Committee based on country of origin or the North American Committee based on where his HOF qualifying achievements took place.

My point was that no player with a hybrid international/NBA resume is yet enshrined and that the International Committee has had extremely limited success in advancing the candidacies of male international players in general.

Those two facts could work against Manu.

[santymrc]

All true. Now we see international players like Dirk who will go into the HOF based almost entirely on their NBA careers. It will be interesting to see which committee puts Dirk's name forward, the International Committee based on country of origin or the North American Committee based on where his HOF qualifying achievements took place.

My point was that no player with a hybrid international/NBA resume is yet enshrined and that the International Committee has had extremely limited success in advancing the candidacies of male international players in general.

Those two facts could work against Manu.

Dirk did next to nothing outside the NBA. Never got a le but had an MVP, nothing more BUT nothing less tho.
He'll get there eventually (hof) but his chances imo are lower than Manu's except he wins something else.

[Mel_13]

Dirk did next to nothing outside the NBA. Never got a le but had an MVP, nothing more BUT nothing less tho.
He'll get there eventually (hof) but his chances imo are lower than Manu's except he wins something else.

Be serious.

Dirk's NBA career makes him an absolute lock.

[santymrc]

Be serious.

Dirk's NBA career makes him an absolute lock.

He's not Pat. Ewing, Barkley etc. Guys that never won a Champ but got what they needed to get there. So, he could be overlooked for more years than Manu. I do believe he's had a career worth of it, but, never done anything that spectacular that makes you turn your head toward him (except that CHOKE against GSW).
Does T-Mac belongs to the HOF? I seriously doubt it.

[Mel_13]

He's not Pat. Ewing, Barkley etc. Guys that never won a Champ but got what they needed to get there. So, he could be overlooked for more years than Manu. I do believe he's had a career worth of it, but, never done anything that spectacular that makes you turn your head toward him (except that CHOKE against GSW).

Good grief.

9-time All-Star
9-time All-NBA
MVP

Find me anyone with those credentials NOT in the HOF.

[JamStone]

There isn't an NBA League MVP winner who is eligible who isn't in the HOF.

Winning a League MVP is like a getting keys handed to you to the HOF.

[Cane]

Dirk's a lock. 7' shooters with that kind of touch and MVP qualities deserve their recognition.

Manu isn't as much of a lock as Dirk but he'll likely get in. No other player really comes close to the impact and achievements he's made. Pretty impressive that he and Argentina won a gold.

[santymrc]

Good grief.

9-time All-Star
9-time All-NBA
MVP

Find me anyone with those credentials NOT in the HOF.

1st, I'm not telling you he doesnt deserve to be in the HOF. He does, just said he might be overlooked more than Manu.

2nd All-Star doesnt mean your in the HOF. That's fans voting. Yao can make the all-star 20 years in a row (china's fan base) and dont get into the HOF.