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  1. #76
    :lol Gio IronMaxipad's Avatar
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    This thread is still going?

  2. #77
    Linger Ficking Good! CuckingFunt's Avatar
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    It is a logical conclusion, considering your position (that white people enjoy privileges at the detriment of other races). That's not exactly a 'popular' notion among whites, agreed? Peggy McIntosh touches on that concept.
    I don't understand the purpose of bolding/italicizing that specific phrase. Privilege cannot exist without oppression -- a privilege is only a privilege if it benefits/applies to only a portion of the population, otherwise it would just be a right. Therefore, if I receive privilege somewhere, it can only be due to a system that denies that privilege to someone else.

    However, I have no reason to disbelieve you when you say you feel no guilt. Indeed, you exhibit convincing human compassion, but few are moved towards philanthropy without even the simplest and most innocent personal motives.
    Of course I have personal motives. Everyone does.

    From a young age I was very conscious and aware of the different lifestyles/experiences of my parents, who divorced when I was four. Both white (whatever that means), and both privileged to a certain extent and in certain situations as a result, both intelligent, both hard working, etc., but because of other aspects of their iden y (gender, class, level of education, and so on) my mother was never given access to the same opportunities that my father was. As a result, I went back and forth between living quite comfortably with my dad during summers and struggling to get by with my mom during the school year. I would learn as I got older and more understanding of such things that there were other elements at play in their specific situations, but it was enough to make me aware that this country doesn't actually provide the even playing field that many people claim and to recognize that's pretty ed up.

    Again, it's not an issue of guilt. I don't feel that I have done something wrong. I don't feel that the majority of people who live within our system of power/privilege/oppression have individually or intentionally done something wrong. I don't feel guilty for being "white." I don't feel guilty for receiving privilege, or even for using that privilege to my advantage in a few cir stances. I do feel, however, that my privileged status is the result of a flawed system (or, to be technical, several interlocking flawed systems) that needs to be changed.

    I agree that feeling guilty over yourself has nothing but negative implications. However, there are other signs that point to this being a subconscious shroud of guilt placed upon some whites - conditioned, if you will.

    Take the Invisible Knapsack, for instance.

    IMO, several of the items in the Invisible Knapsack are directly correlated, or even caused by, guilt. These items hold little relevance except as preconditioned responses to relatively unchanging ideas.

    Forgive the obscurity - This is a different argument. i'll save it for later.
    I'm curious as to what items and how they are correlated. It's been about a year since I've read the article in full and remember it being the type I agreed with overall, but didn't necessarily agree with every word written.

    What exactly do you think should change, and what are your underlying reasons?
    In general, I think that everyone should be treated equally. And I realize that's a broad answer, but it's intentional. I think that as long as power/privilege/oppression dynamics are present within (or endorsed by) the big systems and ins utions that run this country, we will never see the end of prejudice on an individual scale. The two things operate together to continually reinforce one another, and will continue to do so until one of those things changes. My underlying reason is simply that treating someone differently, on either a large or small scale, based on any aspect of their iden y (race, class, gender, sexuality, weight, age, ability, etc.) is inherently wrong and inhuman.

    A fair point. However, would you also consider yourself an attractive, intelligent female along with being "white"? Which quality would you deem more important when trying to impress something upon someone in these "big things"?
    All aspects of my iden y are always present and equally important, and all of them bring their own levels of privilege or oppression. Same with everyone else. I, for instance, am privileged for being young, white, thin, able bodied, having an education, for looking straight, etc. At the same time, I am at a disadvantage for being a woman, an atheist, , and so forth. Again, this is true for everyone -- a black man may be oppressed racially while still benefiting from male privilege, for example. Different aspects of one's iden y apply to different situations.

    Another fair point on the TV, though mass media entertainment is actually a very diverse crowd in general, agreed? And with much more diversity in the fanbase?
    True, but not the point I was making. In TV and entertainment, white is normative. Everything else is assumed to have a niche market or a niche interest. "Friends" and "Seinfeld" are typically referred to as sitcoms, while "Living Single" or one of Tyler Perry's many shows would be prefaced/set aside as being specifically urban or ethnic, for example.

    As for store owners/managers or dare I say, front line employees being prejudiced... well now, that's a lot more subjective than any of your previous standards. I'd have to disagree wholeheartedly; consumers are $$, not skin colors. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your contention?
    Consumers are skin colors in many situations. I've long since lost count of the friends who've been followed through stores to make sure they don't steal anything, even though I've shopped at the same store without anyone paying attention. Used to happen at my neighborhood grocery store when I was a kid/teenager all the time.

    Can I be both?

    It's an interesting - and revealing - do ent, though not without perceived fault.

    There's a few items in the IK that seem "defensive" to me - a conditioned response or ideal stemming from unnecessary guilt. McIntosh's entire principle relies on conditioning and I think it could go both ways in some cases.

    But even this do ent is inconclusive, IMO, when it comes to whites receiving privileges at the detriment of others.
    Again, privilege implies oppression. One cannot exist without the other.

  3. #78
    Linger Ficking Good! CuckingFunt's Avatar
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    cuckingfunt just hates labels.
    I'm fine with labels. They're convenient. I just hate labels that are inaccurate, restrictive, or hierarchically ranked.

  4. #79
    The Wemby Assembly z0sa's Avatar
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    I don't understand the purpose of bolding/italicizing that specific phrase.
    Simply because it's the center of your position and argument. It's a thesis statement, of sorts. It's what I've chosen to argue with in most specific fashion.

    Privilege cannot exist without oppression -- a privilege is only a privilege if it benefits/applies to only a portion of the population, otherwise it would just be a right. Therefore, if I receive privilege somewhere, it can only be due to a system that denies that privilege to someone else.
    I understand that you feel whites have all the privileges of other races, and more.

    However, that's becoming an unfounded opinion in today's time (in my opinion). Our cultures are diversifying extremely quickly, and with the advent of the internet and other instant communication avenues, we're seeing a lot more of that diversity front and center.

    So what I'm really confused about: why don't you submit to your own preaching? Let me explain: you say we need to move past this , that whites shouldn't have privileges other races don't.. Okay, fair enough. But whites shouldn't be expected to move "backwards"; other races have instead, moved forward to accept these same "privileges" to where they actually are becoming rights.

    I want to use your example: employees following your friends in stores. But I need a little more info.

    Your friends are obviously not white - what race are they? Based on their race, specifically what stereotype do you think store owners hold against them? Why did they follow if they saw a white person (you) there?


    Of course I have personal motives. Everyone does.

    From a young age I was very conscious and aware of the different lifestyles/experiences of my parents, who divorced when I was four. Both white (whatever that means), and both privileged to a certain extent and in certain situations as a result, both intelligent, both hard working, etc., but because of other aspects of their iden y (gender, class, level of education, and so on) my mother was never given access to the same opportunities that my father was. As a result, I went back and forth between living quite comfortably with my dad during summers and struggling to get by with my mom during the school year. I would learn as I got older and more understanding of such things that there were other elements at play in their specific situations, but it was enough to make me aware that this country doesn't actually provide the even playing field that many people claim and to recognize that's pretty ed up.

    Again, it's not an issue of guilt. I don't feel that I have done something wrong. I don't feel that the majority of people who live within our system of power/privilege/oppression have individually or intentionally done something wrong. I don't feel guilty for being "white." I don't feel guilty for receiving privilege, or even for using that privilege to my advantage in a few cir stances. I do feel, however, that my privileged status is the result of a flawed system (or, to be technical, several interlocking flawed systems) that needs to be changed.
    Hmm.. thanks for opening up. My parents divorced when I was very young, and I experienced a similar situation. I'm betting we're actually closer to the same side of this argument than I realized.

    First, you seem be arguing from experience and that's not surprising. you're older than me. You've seen more than I have. And you are white, after all. That's acceptable evidence enough in part of this case.

    I'd also like to think that other events might just be an incorrect interpretation, and that certain privileges have been granted you through other factors rather than racial motivation, and even in spite of it.

    I don't think you're giving yourself - or the movement carried on by all races - enough credit.

    That essay was written and popularized in the late 80's. Who knows how many millions have been affected by it. Yet that's just a small piece of the (to most of this generation, naturally occurring) campaign for truly mutual respect and rights between the races.

    Humans have progressed forward since then, and we're a part of that.

    5PM, time to go home, I'll respond to the rest later.
    Last edited by z0sa; 03-19-2010 at 05:07 PM.

  5. #80
    Veteran jack sommerset's Avatar
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    If they said " all non paying customers leave the store now" it would have accomplish the samething without all the drama.

  6. #81
    Believe. NASCARdad's Avatar
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    If they said " all non paying customers leave the store now" it would have accomplish the samething without all the drama.
    Leave us out of this!!!

  7. #82
    Esse quam videri ploto's Avatar
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    A 16-year-old boy patronizing a Walmart store in southern New Jersey took over the public-address system and ordered black people to leave, angering customers and prompting company leaders to apologize, police said Saturday...

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100320/...racial_comment

  8. #83
    Veteran jack sommerset's Avatar
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    Thank goodness. I was worried they would get away with this.

  9. #84
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    haha c'mon son.


    That's a horrible Halloween costume.

  10. #85
    Motivation for me... Stringer_Bell's Avatar
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    So, the voice of a 16 year old kid made a bunch of people butthurt and now he's going to jail? This is a waste of time and resources, but as always when the public is outraged someone has to be hanged.

  11. #86
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    He actually makes more than a few errors... but means aside, I generally agree with the over-arching theme and its implications about my ass race. (not that he necessarily lets black people off the hook either)
    You could always join Al-Qaeda, otherwise known as "the cure" for autophobics like yourself. I hear they'll even throw a wife in on the deal.

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