Garnett....

[Findog]

wait, lol wut?

Absolutely not true.

The "doesn't make his teammates better" tag was thrown at him until they finally beat Detroit and the Lakers, but none of those other things.

[mavs>spurs2]

Absolutely not true.

The "doesn't make his teammates better" tag was thrown at him until they finally beat Detroit and the Lakers, but none of those other things.

Oh don't worry I wasn't going to try to have a serious debate with him about that, I just found it absolutely hilarious

[Findog]

Yeah every sports writer was talking about how unclutch Jordan was right after hitting a gamewinner to take the National Championship.

or when he put 63 points on arguably the best team of all time in Boston Garden or hit that shot over Ehlo.

[badfish22]

DAF86,

man you keep saying that KG's career is so much better and that he was considered one of the best whereas Dirk never was.

Than how about some basic facts:
- Dirk has an MVP just as KG does, plus two other top 3 finishes, just like KG
- Dirk has 4 All-NBA First Team nominatons, just like KG, and might have had a chance to overpass him if he hadn't hurt his elbow while enjoying his finest season, as most fans in here were agreeing. Now, LBJ and Durant are locks at the forward position I think. Still he's going to pass KG in Second Team nominations, and all of this while he has played 3 less years in the league

Dirk has been considered for a while as an elite player in this league. And since we are talking about blogs and stuff, KG will never match his 06 playoffs heroics, during which Bill Simmons called him the best forward since Bird, Hollinger called him one of the most efficient players ever, and with Kobe the top two offensive threats in the league by a wide margin. In every player ranking after those playoffs, he was ranked as the top PF, overtaking Duncan and with writers at CBS and CNNSI claiming that this was his moment in the spotlight. Of course, he would end up winning the MVP that season as well. That is some serious praise thrown to a player who is a "soft, jumpshooting, European".

+1. lol that he never responded to this.

[Findog]

Btw, what's the Mavs record since that Hollinger article?

Mavs are 17-5 since the All Star Break and their trade. Only Phoenix has a better winning percentage since then at 16-4.

17-5 comes out to a winning % of 77 percent. Throw out the first game against the Seattle SloppySeconds when they were ironing out the kinks and they're 17-4 in their last 21 for a winning % of 81 percent. Wins over the Lakers, Magic, Hawks, Nuggets, Bobcats and Suns.

32-20 at the time of the trade, so that works out to a winning % of 62 percent. I'm pretty sure Hollinger's thesis is that they only marginally improved with the trade and that there's about 10-12 teams that are better than Dallas, even after the trade.

I'm pretty sure Dallas belongs in that second tier with Boston, Denver, Utah and Atlanta. At worst the Mavs are the eighth-best team in the league, but according to Hollinger, they're 15, behind Charlotte and Miami

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/powerrankings

[mavs>spurs2]

I'm pretty sure Dallas belongs in that second tier with Boston, Denver, Utah and Atlanta. At worst the Mavs are the eighth-best team in the league, but according to Hollinger, they're 15, behind Charlotte and Miami

No way are we the 8th best team in the league. The only teams that you could maybe argue are just "better" than us are Cleveland and LA. Outside of that, teams like Denver, Utah, Atlanta, I believe are a notch below us. No way I see any of those "2nd tier" teams beating us in a 7 game series, except for maybe Denver, who we just spanked after they were getting all fired up and calling it a "playoff game."

I mean can you sit there and tell me with a straight face that Utah and Atlanta are just flat out "better" than us? who are these other 5 teams ahead of us besides CLE and LA?

[Findog]

No way are we the 8th best team in the league. The only teams that you could maybe argue are just "better" than us are Cleveland and LA. Outside of that, teams like Denver, Utah, Atlanta, I believe are a notch below us. No way I see any of those "2nd tier" teams beating us in a 7 game series, except Denver, who we just spanked after they were getting all fired up and calling it a "playoff game."

Right now we're in a dog fight for the two seed with Utah. If Utah gets it and we have to play them in the semifinals without HCA, we're not advancing. I doubt we win a game in SLC.

[Findog]

I mean can you sit there and tell me with a straight face that Utah and Atlanta are just flat out "better" than us?

Flat out better? No. In the same class as us? I think so. I honestly believe any series between us and the Jazz will come down to HCA. Salt Lake City is a brutal place to try and win a game.

[mogrovejo]

What makes you think I am looking at raw numbers to base my opinion?

What do you or Hollinger think are the cutoff %s for weak-average-good-great rebounding?

LOL @ people who equate "using stats besides ppg/rpg/apg" to "Hollinger".

Basketball coaches were analysing the game in terms of possessions and using rebounding rates decades before Hollinger became popular. Dean Smith, for example.

A 15%RR is average for a big man.

Elite rebounders - 19%RR or higher
Above average - 17%
Average - 15%
Bellow average - 13%
Poor - 11%

(these numbers are simply indicative, use with caution).

An example of an advanced stat that is collected by Sinergy when it comes to rebounding is bellow/above the rim rebounds. Bellow the rim rebounders, guys who only rebound their area, are less valuable in the NBA that . Another one is boxing out - the ability to execute the "find, pivot, protect" trilogy. Or if a player holds the ball high after the rebounding - the value of a rebounder can be greatly diminished if he fails in the aftermath.

For example, Shelden Williams is an overrated rebounder if you just look at his numbers. Ditto for Dirk.

[mavs>spurs2]

I never could figure out why people knob slob Utah so hard every single year and they never do , yet the next year they win a couple games and all the sudden they're legit again.

[mogrovejo]

You called him a weak rebounder.

Being a bellow average rebounder, or even an average one, is a weakness for a player like Dirk.

Iverson always wanted to win on his terms - by shooting 11-35 from the floor. If he didn't get to shoot the ball on every single possession, then he mentally checked out. You can't say that about Jordan. Iverson was unfairly maligned in some ways, but I have a hard time believing that Jordan was ever considered to be essentially the same kind of problem player as Iverson.

BS. Even Iverson's reputation now is different than the reputation he had when he was carrying a bunch of role-players to the NBA finals.

Again, had Shaq got injured in 2001, Iverson's reputation would be entirely different - even though he'd have played and behave the exact same way.

And Jordan was a selfish shot-hog for the first part of his career.

[Blake]

LOL @ people who equate "using stats besides ppg/rpg/apg" to "Hollinger".

Basketball coaches were analysing the game in terms of possessions and using rebounding rates decades before Hollinger became popular. Dean Smith, for example.

A 15%RR is average for a big man.

Elite rebounders - 19%RR or higher
Above average - 17%
Average - 15%
Bellow average - 13%
Poor - 11%

(these numbers are simply indicative, use with caution).

An example of an advanced stat that is collected by Sinergy when it comes to rebounding is bellow/above the rim rebounds. Bellow the rim rebounders, guys who only rebound their area, are less valuable in the NBA that . Another one is boxing out - the ability to execute the "find, pivot, protect" trilogy. Or if a player holds the ball high after the rebounding - the value of a rebounder can be greatly diminished if he fails in the aftermath.

For example, Shelden Williams is an overrated rebounder if you just look at his numbers. Ditto for Dirk.

so for you, 4% is the difference between above and below average?

where do you get your rebounding rate stats from?

[21_Blessings]

BS. Even Iverson's reputation now is different than the reputation he had when he was carrying a bunch of role-players to the NBA finals.

Again, had Shaq got injured in 2001, Iverson's reputation would be entirely different - even though he'd have played and behave the exact same way.

And Jordan was a selfish shot-hog for the first part of his career.

Shaq did get injured in 2001 and that's only reason Iverson even won the MVP. Not to mention Kobe was already better than his overrated ass and shut him down in the 4thquarter of game 2.

Jordan was a selfish shot-hog in his later career in the exact same way Kobe is.

[mogrovejo]

so for you, a 4% rebounding rate is the difference between above and below average?

Dude, 2.5% is the difference between Bargnani and Nowitzki. If you think that 4 rebounds out of 100 is a small thing you're absolutely clueless. It's pretty much the difference between a top rebounding team in the league and a poor one.

Again, go learn some books. I mean no offense but that kind of question/doubt only exists if you're clueless about these issues.

[mavs>spurs2]

Back to Utah, I mean every year in recent memory they've been billed as some major powerhouse darkhorse who is a legitimate threat to whatever team happens to be the favorite that year. But they've done nothing but get curbstomped in 5 games in the first round EVERY SINGLE YEAR, except for the one time it took them 7 games to beat an average Houston team and then went on to face a weak GS team who matched up with them terribly after the mavericks first round debacle. And where did that easy route get them? An absolute smacking at the hands of the eventual champion San Antonio Spurs.

Findog I just don't see what pipe you and ESPN seem to be smoking

[Blake]

Dude, 2.5% is the difference between Bargnani and Nowitzki. If you think that 4 rebounds out of 100 is a small thing you're absolutely clueless. It's pretty much the difference between a top rebounding team in the league and a poor one.

Generally speaking, I think 4 rebounds out of 100 is a small thing.

I also think rebounding is generally an overrated stat at times, but that's a different topic.

Where did you get your stats?

Again, go learn some books. I mean no offense but that kind of question/doubt only exists if you're clueless about these issues.

You should learn some books about English language.

Clue me in as to what books I should be a-learnin' about rebounding rates and how it shows Dirk to be a weak rebounder.

[Findog]

Being a bellow average rebounder, or even an average one, is a weakness for a player like Dirk.

Pulling in 9-11 boards playing next to a rebounder like Dampier is a weakness for Dirk? Really? You must think Josh Howard and Jason Terry are perennial All Stars for them to have had the success they've enjoyed the past few years, since apparently Dirk is nothing more than a white Bob McAdoo.

Do you honestly think Kevin Garnett would maintain such an awesome rebounding rate if Moses Malone hopped in a time machine and joined the Minnesota Timberwolves?

I also like how you point to Garnett being a better passer as another reason to call him a better overall player than Dirk - being a good passer means being at the mercy of your teammates and whether or not they can finish the play. Being a more efficient and better scorer that can create your own shot is not so dependent on your supporting cast. What is more valuable? Being a good passer (not like Dirk is a slouch in that dept) or being able to start and finish the play yourself?

BS. Even Iverson's reputation now is different than the reputation he had when he was carrying a bunch of role-players to the NBA finals.

People who don't follow the NBA saw Iverson's tats and cornrows and looked at him as some sort of thug. But it's pure BS revisionist history to say that he and Jordan were evaluated the same way by coaches, scouts and front-office execs in the early stages of their careers.

[nkdlunch]

Back to Utah, I mean every year in recent memory they've been billed as some major powerhouse darkhorse who is a legitimate threat to whatever team happens to be the favorite that year. But they've done nothing but get curbstomped in 5 games in the first round EVERY SINGLE YEAR, except for the one time it took them 7 games to beat an average Houston team and then went on to face a weak GS team who matched up with them terribly after the mavericks first round debacle. And where did that easy route get them? An absolute smacking at the hands of the eventual champion San Antonio Spurs.

Findog I just don't see what pipe you and ESPN seem to be smoking

well if you go by that rule then by logic, you must also go by the rule that Mavs will eventually choke.

which leaves the lakers and nuggs to fight for the scraps. And 99 times out of 100 will have Lakers going to WCF. Nothing to see here folks... move along

[bostonguy]

I never could figure out why people knob slob Utah so hard every single year and they never do , yet the next year they win a couple games and all the sudden they're legit again.

This

[mogrovejo]

Generally speaking, I think 4 rebounds out of 100 is a small thing.

Yeah, but you're wrong. What else do you want me to say? Four rebounds in 100 possessions is the difference between the Cavs this season (best rebounding team in the NBA) and the NOH this season (26th best rebounding team); 4 rebounds out of 100 change the outcome of dozens of games in a NBA season. You just can't translate the abstractness of the number to the practical impact it has in a game.

Read Dean Oliver's book or something. Dirk is an average/slightly bellow average rebounder; I wouldn't call him "weak".

[Findog]

Back to Utah, I mean every year in recent memory they've been billed as some major powerhouse darkhorse who is a legitimate threat to whatever team happens to be the favorite that year. But they've done nothing but get curbstomped in 5 games in the first round EVERY SINGLE YEAR, except for the one time it took them 7 games to beat an average Houston team and then went on to face a weak GS team who matched up with them terribly after the mavericks first round debacle. And where did that easy route get them? An absolute smacking at the hands of the eventual champion San Antonio Spurs.

Findog I just don't see what pipe you and ESPN seem to be smoking

I'm just saying that if they get the 2 seed and we have to play them in the second round without HCA, I don't like our chances. That strikes me as a home team winning every game type of series.

[Findog]

Read Dean Oliver's book or something. Dirk is an average/slightly bellow average rebounder; I wouldn't call him "weak".

Being a bellow average rebounder, or even an average one, is a weakness for a player like Dirk.

Pick a lane, please.

[bostonguy]

I'm just saying that if they get the 2 seed and we have to play them in the second round without HCA, I don't like our chances. That strikes me as a home team winning every game type of series.

SLC is a tough place to win at but LA/CLE are much much tougher. If we want at least a decent WCF against LA....it has to be the Mavs. Utah will be lucky to win 2 games against LA.

[mogrovejo]

I also think rebounding is generally an overrated stat at times, but that's a different topic.

RPG is a misleading stat.

Rebounding is extremely underrated by basketball fans (especially if under rebounding one puts all those things I mentioned before - above the ring, protection, team rebounding, contest rebounding - for example, few pay attention to the importance of contesting a rebound, even if one doesn't get it).

[mogrovejo]

Pick a lane, please.

Again? Dirk is an average/slightly bellow average rebounder and being that is a weakness in his overall game. Already explained this. Make more intelligent questions, please.