Stats Lie...the Well is Dry.

[Parker2112]

Bottom line, less Parker has meant more Manu - and Manu has been absolutely kicking ass. It's not that the team is better without Parker on the floor, it's that they are better when Manu is kicking ass.

If having Hill on the floor made the team better, you would see SOMETHING in the stats to indicate it. The team's % of assisted field goals would be better, the team's effective FG% would be better when Hill is on the floor... something. But the numbers aren't there.

Probably the best stats to look at are the team's Effective FG% and Assisted FG%:

When Parker leaves the floor, the team's EFG% stays about the same. When Hill leaves the floor, it actually gets a little bit higher. When Manu leaves the floor, the team EFG% drops quite a bit.

When Hill leaves the floor, the team's AFG% goes down a small amount. When Parker leaves the floor, it goes up a little bit. When Manu leaves the floor, the team's AFG% goes down A LOT.

More assists and higher EFG% mean the team is scoring more easily and more efficiently. Hill is doing a good job of filling Parker's shoes. But when Manu is on the floor, he makes everyone better.

I can buy this use of stats 1000% more than I can follow Timvps use of stats

[Parker2112]

Not really.

Quality post.

Recognize sarcasm. Your take on the first part?

[ChumpDumper]

Recognize sarcasm.

You first.

Your take on the first part?

You already got it.

[Mel_13]

Tony and Manu dont facilitate in the same way, so its rarely the same pass. Manu can pass into the teeth of the defense with great results, while Tony is usually passing out of the teeth of the defense, relying on the shooter for results.

I dont think RJ will lose it, but the danger of playing with tony is that players watch tony and wait. Honestly I could swear that there is tons less movement with tony on the court, which would have to be by design. Thats why I say Pop's gameplan has been our shortcoming this year.

I don't see the same danger that you do, but I'll leave your thread alone.

[Parker2112]

You first.

hah.

You already got it.

oh.

[shingo_318]

I'm calling bull . On Timvp's whole "in defense of Tony" post, the whole analysis, and the entire response (without even reading them all).

First, the offense with Tony is usually directed in one of a few ways: pick and roll, drive to the cup, kick out for three, or Tony jumpshot.

Without Tony, as we have all seen, we have ball movement...side to side, front to back, on the break...guys aren't looking at Tony to see what his next move is going to be. They are making moves without the ball, making passes, not waiting to see if Tony is going to kick to them or not.

With Tony, we live and die with Tony, Tim and the long ball.


What the stats don't show (and why Timvp's analysis fails) is the reason this team is gelling now, after Tony goes down. Other guys have joined the effort. We are playing like a team... not just on offense but on defense as well (good defense follows confidence and trust, which follows team play on offense). Guys aren't standing around waiting for Tony's cue, they are attacking the other team, with or without the ball. How do you quantify this in the stats? You can't. At least not very well.

But lets try at least..so how about measuring our play by... the play of the team (odd concept!)? We wandered aimlessly all season, then when Tony goes down we find a team gelling on both ends of the floor. Excuses, justifications, stats, etc wont hide the realities of this season. But I believe we must learn from this to contend THIS YEAR.

IMO, when Tony is in the game, we have a 50% chance of getting a one-and-done, whether that's a TP jumper, a TD jumper or drive with no foul, a TP drive with no foul call and Tony on his butt, or a kick out to guys on the 3 that we can't trust (outside of Manu and Bonner). That kills runs, it kills other player's involvement, they dont get touches and they go cold. It kills easy shot opportunities. It makes games harder to win, and creates wear and tear on our old guys.

Stats to support? How about Pop not being able to rest TD this season after we play ty ball all year, so ty that most Spurs fans turn their back and walk away from the scene? How many back to backs has TD rested? I blame that on the lack of production from our role players (obvious point).

Without Tony, we have done a much better job of getting good shots because the ball is moving and so is our squad. The old offense (yes, the one that won championships) is stale, and like it or not, teams like Dallas and L.A. hope that we show up with that stale three-pronged attack. Contenders will let us win one or two in a series with hot three point shooting, and flame out overall because, as we have shown, we dont have perimeter killers who can sustain the effort over seven games.

On the other hand, they hope we don't move the ball, catching them off guard, finding Blair/Tim/Dice/RJ/Bogans right under the bucket. That is what we have been doing, and we have been beating le contenders...

...without Tony you say???? Gasp!!! You mean team play CAN overcome long odds??? You mean guys playing for each other CAN contend??? As Spurs fans, I thought that fact was a given for us all...

But blaming Tony is not the answer...Blame the stale three pronged attack!!!!

This gameplan is the product of years of championship success. It worked for years, but when other teams began to have success against it (or better yet age caught Timmy), and (most important) when our defense dwindled, we should have come up with something new.

Our downfall was that we simply continued to go to the well, even after it was obvious that there wasnt even enough in that approach to beat average teams, holding our hat in our hands and hoping it would come back.

It almost cost us the season. I blame Pop for this. There were times in past seasons when this team wanted Tony to be in constant attack mode. Tony attacked so much last year, he was gassed late in the season and in most 4th quarters. This was Pop's call.

But THIS YEAR, we needed help for Tim. We needed to integrate new faces. We needed other guys to earn their money. And when Tony went down, and MORE IMPORTANTLY when Pop was driven away from the well for 20 games, we did just that. No stats required. We beat contenders. That's what counts. The point is obvious. And in my estimation, Tony's play last night in Sacto shows that both he and Pop are trying to sustain things as they developed during his absence, not clog them up by going back to a dry well.

So the big question: NOW WHAT?
This team needs Tony to: 1) facilitate ball movement, not assists or point production OR TIMMY (TD can fend for himself)... and 2) attack the basket, but without calling his own number. If it's there it's there. If not, keep the ball moving.

Pop is the master of the Spurs attack each and every night, so if this happens it will be because he demanded it. And for what it's worth to all you Tony fanboys/girlss, I believe Tony will do what is asked from him to benefit the team.

One more time for the thumb.

[lennyalderette]

just take a look at what happens when you put tony on a top pg tonight tonys letting nash put it in his arsss w/out lube!!!!! you so called wise posters are just stubborn and wont admit he hurts in the team if hes not outscoring the opposing pg

[Cry Havoc]

So the entire point of this thread is that the Spurs are a better team when Manu is beasting?

[benefactor]

You can't make a post as long as the OP and expect anyone to give a by page 4. Its not about attention. Its about making my point. My post was everything Timvp told me it needed to be...it was more than a comment. It was a complete argument, making point after point, and something that could prompt a discussion completely different from one that would otherwise happen in Timvp's post. Dont be so simple minded as to believe that just because it was in response to Timvp's post meant it had to be included there.

Is that good enough for you? If not, tell us what cons utes something worthy of a new post?

And then when your done, realize that is your opinion and take it for what its worth.

Translation: I'm an attention . Moving on.

[Obstructed_View]

How exactly does the number of posts on a spurs fan site = how true of a spurs fan a person really is? My family had season tickets since the Spurs came to SA. When I returned to SA I had tickets until I moved away. Since League Pass I have never missed a Spurs game unless it was blacked out. However, I don't have 10,000 posts and I did not post a whole of a lot the past 3 months, I guess this makes me an untrue fan?

So the measure of how good a Spurs fan someone is has to be based on your criteria and yours alone then, right?

[elbamba]

So the measure of how good a Spurs fan someone is has to be based on your criteria and yours alone then, right?

Not at all. I have no criteria, especially not some stupid arbitrary theory like how many times I have posted on an internet fan site, to determine what is a true Spurs fan. Don't get me wrong, I very much enjoy ST. I just don't think that I will ever get to 25,000 posts, nor do I care if I ever do.

However, if you feel that a post count makes you more of a fan than me, I will gladly concede the point. Congratulations.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

Those who are just insulting this guy for posting this are ridiculous. He actually has some points to consider.

His post count doesn't mean - this could easily be someone who's been reading this forum for 5 years who never had the will to post anything until now.

Having 10,000 posts doesn't mean . Doesn't mean you know anything about BB or that you are smart in any way. It only means for sure you have spent a lot of time in this place. That can be implied. Nothing else.

Also, timvp doesn't need anyone to come to his D.

Put your back in your pants and contribute rather than destroy.

[Obstructed_View]

Not at all. I have no criteria, especially not some stupid arbitrary theory like how many times I have posted on an internet fan site, to determine what is a true Spurs fan. Don't get me wrong, I very much enjoy ST. I just don't think that I will ever get to 25,000 posts, nor do I care if I ever do.

However, if you feel that a post count makes you more of a fan than me, I will gladly concede the point. Congratulations.

If you feel that your family buying tickets and you getting LP every year makes you a better fan than everyone else, then power to you. I guess post count isn't an arbitrary measurement of fandom that meets your high standards, and I apologize for offending your "super fan" sensibilities by pointing out how stupid it is for one person to try to measure another's fandom, because it's clearly struck a nerve with you, yet you still fail to get the point.

[elbamba]

If you feel that your family buying tickets and you getting LP every year makes you a better fan than everyone else, then power to you. I guess post count isn't an arbitrary measurement of fandom that meets your high standards, and I apologize for offending your "super fan" sensibilities by pointing out how stupid it is for one person to try to measure another's fandom, because it's clearly struck a nerve with you, yet you still fail to get the point.

Apparently we are arguing the same point and yet misunderstanding each other.

[benefactor]

Those who are just insulting this guy for posting this are ridiculous. He actually has some points to consider.

His post count doesn't mean - this could easily be someone who's been reading this forum for 5 years who never had the will to post anything until now.

Having 10,000 posts doesn't mean . Doesn't mean you know anything about BB or that you are smart in any way. It only means for sure you have spent a lot of time in this place. That can be implied. Nothing else.

Also, timvp doesn't need anyone to come to his D.

Put your back in your pants and contribute rather than destroy.

He might have good points, but this is pretty much an automatic turnoff:

I'm calling bull . On Timvp's whole "in defense of Tony" post, the whole analysis, and the entire response (without even reading them all).

Making your own thread to call out another thread is attention whoring...period. The ironic thing about this statement is that he called out other "10000 post" fans while, by his own admission, didn't even take the time to read all the responses in the original thread. There is so much off the top fail here that there is no reason to waste time considering his argument.

[Cane]

He might have good points, but this is pretty much an automatic turnoff:

Making your own thread to call out another thread is attention whoring...period. The ironic thing about this statement is that he called out other "10000 post" fans while, by his own admission, didn't even take the time to read all the responses in the original thread. There is so much off the top fail here that there is no reason to waste time considering his argument.

Dude, stfu. You made a thread about how Duncan was done and that the Spurs should buy him out; and you said that kind of was "normal".

[Parker2112]

He might have good points, but this is pretty much an automatic turnoff:

Making your own thread to call out another thread is attention whoring...period. The ironic thing about this statement is that he called out other "10000 post" fans while, by his own admission, didn't even take the time to read all the responses in the original thread. There is so much off the top fail here that there is no reason to waste time considering his argument.

You left out the. It was supposed to incite people to read my OP while simultaneously allowing me to make fun of my opinionated stance. Evidently you didnt see that as ironic self-depricating humor.

As for the thing, nearly all the posts on the first page of this board could be condensed into about five posts: Spurs suck, Spurs rock, trade ideas, tony sucks, and leave tony alone. Its just never gonna happen.

By your logic every one of the posters who could have included their post into another is an attention . You are missing the big picture son (Louisiana-flavored Spurstalk related humor intended).

[Parker2112]

Dude, stfu. You made a thread about how Duncan was done and that the Spurs should buy him out; and you said that kind of was "normal".

owned

[benefactor]

Dude, stfu. You made a thread about how Duncan was done and that the Spurs should buy him out; and you said that kind of was "normal".

No, I didn't. I said this:

I'm not sure what they do with Duncan. They should not trade him, but perhaps sitting down with him and discussing a plan for rebuilding might be a good idea. I doubt he would want to stay around if the Spurs weren't going to be compe ive, so maybe they could work out a buyout for him so he could retire.

I also said that the decision should be in Duncan's hands as he has earned that right. I also never said buyout out players was normal. I said that starting over is normal and teams that hang on too long wind up like the Jazz did in the early 2000's...they become teams with no clear direction.

You left out the. It was supposed to incite people to read my OP while simultaneously allowing me to make fun of my opinionated stance. Evidently you didnt see that as ironic self-depricating humor.

Umm...what?

As for the thing, nearly all the posts on the first page of this board could be condensed into about five posts: Spurs suck, Spurs rock, trade ideas, tony sucks, and leave tony alone. Its just never gonna happen.

So you are saying you sunk to their level. I once again stand affirmed.

By your logic every one of the posters who could have included their post into another is an attention . You are missing the big picture son (Louisiana-flavored Spurstalk related humor intended).

Well, sort of. Some don't see a thread about something else on the first page and are too lazy to see if a discussion about it has been started, so they just start another thread. You, OTOH, started another discussion about something that was already right in front of you and admitted that you didn't even care to read all the takes in that discussion before starting your own about the exact same thing.

[Cane]

No, I didn't. I said this:

I also said that the decision should be in Duncan's hands as he has earned that right. I also never said buyout out players was normal. I said that starting over is normal and teams that hang on too long wind up like the Jazz did in the early 2000's...they become teams with no clear direction.

I doubt he would want to stay around if the Spurs weren't going to be compe ive, so maybe they could work out a buyout for him so he could retire.

Its dumbass trolling to suggest that the Spurs should buyout Duncan or to say that he's done to the point where the Spurs should just lay over and give up entirely. And yea that is an "opinion" I suppose.

There is a time when giving up and starting over is necessary. Teams that don't look like Utah did in the early 2000's...and that's where the Spurs are headed. I'm not suggesting anything that hasn't been done many times in NBA history.

Let's face reality here...Tim Duncan is done. He's done. He had played like 18 minutes before the beginning of the 4th and could not carry the team past the Nets. The night before he only played 26 minutes.

What's the point in trying again? I've said this before but it's looking more and more like a reality...the Spurs are dangerously close to becoming the early 2000's Utah Jazz. They should let Manu go and trade RJ for straight expirings. I don't even care if they get a decent draft pick in return. They should probably think about getting whatever value they can get for Parker also. I'm not sure what they do with Duncan. They should not trade him, but perhaps sitting down with him and discussing a plan for rebuilding might be a good idea. I doubt he would want to stay around if the Spurs weren't going to be compe ive, so maybe they could work out a buyout for him so he could retire.

this is just such a stupid, pessimistic thread. probably the most bafflingly stupid i've read on ST in recent memory.

i can't get over why anyone would want to give up on a team that has three top-5 players at their respective positions, much less right after a loss to NJ, in which they could've won if Manu played.

Manu is playing like the second best SG in the league, and TP was considered top-3 last year, and an MVP candidate. they both score at an amazingly goof rate - probably the best for their position.
and Duncan is still a top-5 pf.

this team just beat the best team in the league, a great team in Boston, when toe-to-toe with Atlanta on their court, and were in it against LA for much of the 4th - ALL WITHOUT A PLAYER MANY CONSIDER TO BE THE BEST ON THIS TEAM IN TP.

Christ's sake.

You're technically right but you were implying and insinuating that buying out players such as Duncan is normal and that the Spurs should give up entirely.

You made an attention whoring, dumbass topic and got called out on it. Here it is: http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthre...07#post4195907 Now you're trying to play that card against the OP who basically did what you did except only focused on Parker rather than the whole team.

High horses must be nice

[Parker2112]

Umm...what?

I was making fun of my own this-is-a-thread-by-a- -poster intro.

But as for Timvp's thread, I couldnt read it any further after about the fourth handjobber for Timvp... I think his take on the Spurs is skewed hard and I find it ridiculous that no one calls him on it.

Reality is Timvp's posts are always followed by pages of mindless handjobs , which ironically follow Timvp's mandatory TP handjob , and I'm not much for watchin' a guy get a handjob, whether he is a Spur or a Spurstalk celebrity.

[Parker2112]

And if you didnt catch any of that, then you can me.

[Parker2112]

Don't worry I won't watch.

[benefactor]

You're technically right but you were implying and insinuating that buying out players such as Duncan is normal and that the Spurs should give up entirely.

Once again...no I didn't and not I wasn't. Please quote me where I said buying out players is normal.

[benefactor]

I was making fun of my own this-is-a-thread-by-a- -poster intro.

But as for Timvp's thread, I couldnt read it any further after about the fourth handjobber for Timvp... I think his take on the Spurs is skewed hard and I find it ridiculous that no one calls him on it.

You could have called him out in his own thread, but what's the point in that?

Reality is Timvp's posts are always followed by pages of mindless handjobs , which ironically follow Timvp's mandatory TP handjob , and I'm not much for watchin' a guy get a handjob, whether he is a Spur or a Spurstalk celebrity.

Interesting. Your tone reeks of jealousy. Is there something going on in your life where you are not getting enough affirmation? People not taking your ideas seriously?