Dirk

[Findog]

Best PF of all-time.

If Manu is your team's best player and number one option, you're a 45-win team and perennial lower playoff seed.

[Findog]

I don't trust you with numbers, you like to change them a bit. Also I said "just as". And why didn't you came up with the assists numbers?

I took them from basketball reference, you can check them for yourself.

[DAF86]

Manu has a much better assist rate. He's also a wing who is expected to initiate his team's offense. Dirk is a big that is the primary scorer for his team. It's like criticizing Shaq for not having as good as a 3-pt shooting % as Kobe, or Kobe for not scoring as many points in the paint as Shaq. Dirk is a very good passer in his own right, but it's not his job to get the ball out on the wing and create for himself or his teammates in the p'n'r. His job is to set up at the foul-line extended and look for his shot or hit cutters on the baseline, or kick out to open 3-ball shooters when he gets doubled.

No, it's not. Go compare Manu's assist rate with Duncan's, Barkley's, etc. and you will see that there isn't such difference.

[badfish22]

No way Manu ever sniffs the finals as a franchise guy

[Findog]

No, it's not. Go compare Manu's assist rate with Duncan's, Barkley's, etc. and you will see that there isn't such difference.

Manu is a better passer than Dirk. We're not arguing that. We're not also arguing that Dirk is a better rebounder than Manu. You said Manu was just as efficient a scorer as Dirk and then when proven wrong, brought up assists as a non sequitur.

[DAF86]

Manu is a better passer than Dirk. We're not arguing that. We're not also arguing that Dirk is a better rebounder than Manu. You said Manu was just as efficient a scorer as Dirk and then when proven wrong, brought up assists as a non sequitur.

So let me get this straight, you proved to me that Manu isn't as efficient as Dirk scoring the ball by saying that Manu's true shooting is better than Dirk's?

[ffadicted]

No way Manu ever sniffs the finals as a franchise guy

This was obviously proven when he carried the spurs over the Lakers, Cavs, Magic, Celts, etc... in the two months where Tony was out and Tim was playing like , right?

[Findog]

So let me get this straight, you proved to me that Manu isn't as efficient as Dirk scoring the ball by saying that Manu's true shooting is better than Dirk's?

His true shooting % is .011 better than Dirk's. He also has a turnover rate of 14% with a usage rate of 25%, whereas Dirk has a turnover rate of 9% with a usage rate of 27%. How are you not getting this? Manu is not as EFFICIENT at scoring as Dirk.

[badfish22]

This was obviously proven when he carried the spurs over the Lakers, Cavs, Magic, Celts, etc... in the two months where Tony was out and Tim was playing like , right?

Alright lets see him carry the Spurs over the Mavs. Regular season doesn't mean anything taken in such a small sample. I can't believe I have to tell you this.

[badfish22]

http://espn.go.com/blog/TrueHoop/pos...-special-night

I was reading this article today. Dirk is pretty damn high on those list.

[DAF86]

His true shooting % is .011 better than Dirk's. He also has a turnover rate of 14% with a usage rate of 25%, whereas Dirk has a turnover rate of 9% with a usage rate of 27%. How are you not getting this? Manu is not as EFFICIENT at scoring as Dirk.

If you take into consideration turnovers then you also have to consider assists. 90% of Manu's TO's are bad passes. That's why I brought up the assists talk. Like it or not Manu is just as efficient as Dirk on the offensive end.

[Findog]

If you take into consideration turnovers then you also have to consider assists. 90% of Manu's TO's are bad passes. That's why I brought up the assists talk. Like it or not Manu is just as efficient as Dirk on the offensive end.

Yes, you have to take turnovers into consideration. That's part of how concepts like "efficiency" are calculated. It doesn't matter if he throws the ball into the third row or gets striped by a defender with good hands. If you put the ball in Manu's hands, you will get less efficient scoring than with Dirk.

[Phillip]

exactly, if Manu had gone to a different team and been the team's Main Guy, instead of no.2 or 3 option, he would have been among the lead leaders in scoring and assists for a number of years.

i do think his stats would increase if he got more chances to shine, but i dont think he would be quite among the league leaders. again, mainly because of physical limitations. IMO he has the heart, will, and desire of Jordan. He also has a comparable level of skill to Jordan. But he has only a fraction of the athleticism of Jordan.

[ffadicted]

Alright lets see him carry the Spurs over the Mavs. Regular season doesn't mean anything taken in such a small sample. I can't believe I have to tell you this.

He's still the best player on the spurs right now, and could very well carry the spurs to a series win, he has the potential, I can't believe I have to tell you this. He won't do it alone, but nobody can (see: Kobe without shaq or pau, dwade right now, etc...)

[DAF86]

No, he's not. It doesn't matter if he throws the ball into the third row or gets striped by a defender with good hands. If you put the ball in Manu's hands, you will get less efficient scoring than with Dirk.

Last time I check, you had to help your team score the ball to get an assist.

[Phillip]

Even Dirk admitted to hacking Duncan under the basket on the last play of regulation in Game 7. That would have given Duncan two free throws with 2 seconds left in a tie game.

proof?

[Findog]

Last time I check, you had to help your team score the ball to get an assist.

Getting an assist is not the same thing as scoring yourself. I can't believe I have to explain this to you. Manu's assist rate of 23% has nothing to do with how efficient he is at scoring himself.

[DAF86]

Getting an assist is not the same thing as scoring yourself. I can't believe I have to explain this to you. Manu's assist rate of 23% has nothing to do with how efficient he is at scoring himself.

And Manu's TOs have nothing to do with his abilities as an efficient scorer. Manu has a higher TO ratio 'cause he plays as a playmaker, he passes and dribbles the ball a lot more than Nowitzki. If he were to take a shot 70% of the time that he gets the ball like Dirk does, then his TO ratio would be a lot lower.

[Findog]

And Manu's TOs have nothing to do with his abilities as an efficient scorer.

Yes they do. Just as Dirk's turnovers impact his ability to score efficiently.

[badfish22]

He's still the best player on the spurs right now, and could very well carry the spurs to a series win, he has the potential, I can't believe I have to tell you this. He won't do it alone, but nobody can (see: Kobe without shaq or pau, dwade right now, etc...)

What do you mean do it alone? He wasn't even the leading scorer on his team.
He had more help than Dirk scoring wise.

[FkLA]

1.For the ing guy asking for evidence, like I said look at the last shot of the first half of Game 1. Mason has his hands straight up, bodying him up, Dirk initiates contact by bumping into him and than goes flailing back like a little girl resulting in an and1 with minimal contact. And again this is the norm for Dirk when he shoots that fadeaway, to go flying like a little girl and its also the norm for him to receive 6-8 FTAs per game off of it. Mavettefan's argument is mainly that theres some body contact (that is normally initiated by Dirk bumping into the player than fading away btw), but this is the ing playoffs. If youre going to call those ticky tack pussy fouls than call them when Damp or Haywood body up on Timmy as well.

2.Manu vs Dirk...is alot closer than you gots make it seem. Ive already schooled a couple of you Mavettefans and that Mav rider DoK in a previous argument regarding this. But the main points--you cant fault Manu for being second fiddle to the greatest PF of all-time that ridiculous. You also cant fault him for not having godly stats when he has that same greatest PF of all-time+a great scoring PG taking touches away from him, not to mention being designated a 6th man role for the betterment of the team. Truth is everytime this guy has been given big minutes and given the responsibility as the main playmaker, he has put up all-league numbers and the Spurs have been fairly sucessful. Dont overlook the Olympics either gots, he led a team to gold that had some NBA players on it but it certainly wasnt the most talented team in that compe ion. When he's been the #1 guy he's excelled every single time and has shown nothing to suggest that he would fail in the NBA as a #1 like you Mavette gots claim. KG, Malone, Barkley > Dirk btw.

3. For those of you y ass gots that are already proclaiming a series victory...coughbadpussy22cough. Dont fool yourself dumbass your team had a 20 FTA disparity, our best PG in George Hill was ineffective because of the ankle injury involving that dumbass cameraman (where is Rodman to kick that when you need him), and your German vagin along with being gift wrapped some FTs was shooting at the Pacific Ocean. Yet you won by 6 points, now Im not into moral victories but Game 1 did nothing to show that the Spurs cant hang with these girls in blue. Spurs will rape that ass in Game 2 and take care of bis at home.

[Phillip]

1. i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love


2. i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love

3. i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love i love

cool story bro

[FkLA]

BTW, currently Manu is the Spurs best player...what will be Mavette fans argument when Manu's team wins this series over Dirk's team?

[badfish22]

lol. Spurfan just pussy hurt from all the rapings Dirk has given them throughout the years.

[ffadicted]

What do you mean do it alone? He wasn't even the leading scorer on his team.
He had more help than Dirk scoring wise.

Yes he has been since the All-Star break (which is when he really started playing like Manu), along with being the best player in the team overall. And by do it alone I mean he can't be the only guy that'll score or make plays ala DWade in miami, and still win games over the long run. Frankly, nobody can, not Dirk, not Wade, not Tim, not Kobe... this is a team sport

And this isn't a Dirk vs. Manu debate, I'm not arguing who has more help... this is a "Can manu perform at an all-star level and carry his team to a series victory in the playoffs being the main go-to guy?", and I think the answer is yes, I can't see how one could blatantly say "no he can't" when he has performed so admirably and effectively every time he's been put into that sort of situation