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Gotta disagree with you here. I like this one. But then I'm an Anglophile... shocking I know given my username/avatar.
How well a player fits into a system doesn't necessarily make someone a better player. There are many situations I can imagine where you can swap two players and both teams would become worse, and that could be the case here... but I could see how the Lakers offense (which wasn't spectacular this year anyway) could be better with Dirk in place of Gasol... Dirk is one of the most efficient players ever.
I will say, the one downside of Dirk in place of Pau on the Lakers is that Dirk can't play C like Pau, which would increase reliance on that bum Glassnum.
How would Gasol fare having to take 18-20 shots on a team with poor slashing and unreliable flawed offensive players like Dampwood/Kidd/Butler/Marion?
I'll tip my hat to Gasol if he clearly outplays Dirk in the 2011 Western Conference Finals... what he does against terrible defensive PF's like Boozer/Stoudamire and undersized frontlines without true centers does not impress me to a point where I can consider him better than... well the best PF in the game.
Finally: Pau is a center, so this thread le is flawed.
lameTime to stop denying, this guy is dominant. He can defend, pass and seems to have a counter post move to every kind of defense played on him. He also seems like a good teammate. Much respect to him.
Agreed. That said, I'd never trade Pau for Dirk... Pau is just the perfect fit for this LA team. Not taking anything away from Dirk, in the right situation he's just as deadly in his own way.
He desperately needs a tough, mobile defensive C behind him, offense optional. Boards, blocks, defense. Ibaka is the current prototype, Camby, Okafor (when healthy), Chandler (when healthy) other examples.Give Dirk a Kobe level player on the Mavs and things are nearly as close imo.
Dampier is OK back there -- I'm actually higher on him than most -- but he's just not mobile enough. I don't know enough about Haywood's defensive game these days to know whether he can do it.
Mucca, why ye must be hatin? Can't we all just hae a go at the olde meat curtains and unite against the poofs trying to take over this gaff? Afraid thou am that ye may be one of those uphill gardeners.
Toodle pip!
Haywood is an adequate C for Dirk.
Dirk just needs, in his own words, a guy who is explosive off the dribble, that can create his own shot:
"You'd love to get somebody that can be explosive off the dribble, can create his own shot at any given time," Nowitzki said. "Obviously, there are a couple out there -- LeBron, D-Wade -- one of those guys. A wing player that can create his own shot, score at will."
And we gettin that
<------------
Admittedly, that was a foolish line. But, you got to admit, with how small the league is nowadays and with the way Gasol plays, how could he not be considered a C? He plays a lot more minutes at C than he does PF.
He was, but Garnett was also a much better all around player who dragged his often thin teams to heights that Gasol surely couldn't have.
Plenty of people are making Gasol out to be better than he is. He's just very good; not great. Even in his decline, Duncan is still (right now) slightly better than Gasol. The problem is the Spurs asked him to do too much (as anyone who watched them would know) and wore him down. For half a season, he was as good as anyone not named James. He really only had about a bad month, maybe month and a half (at most) stretch, then played well down the stretch. Only Ginobili was scorching hot, so it went mostly unnoticed. This idea that Duncan fell off the map is ridiculous though. The month by month splits may suggest that, but really it was mainly because the offense was being run through Ginobili.
He's become overrated, yes. I'm telling you, he's getting about as much praise as Duncan was receiving in his prime. Every time he scores over some much smaller opponent or makes the simplest of passes, Collins is slobbering over him. It's sickening. You know who received this treatment in the old Suns/Spurs playoff series'? Nash. You know what Nash/Gasol have in common? No one cared that the Spurs had the best player in the world at the time, didn't matter, it was the Nash show.
I agree. Trust me, I'm not selling Ginobili short. I'm just saying I wasn't lulled into thinking he's an overall better player than Bryant because of his torrid stretch, though I do think they're a lot closer than most think.
What in Gasol's stats indicate he's the better player? Don't give me "more apg, more orpg", etc. He plays a lot more minutes. Look at efficiency.
It's not the minutes, it's how arduous those minutes are. Trust me, if you watch the Spurs game to game, you'd know. If they sign Splitter and he lives up to expectations, Duncan should be able to finally get the proper help/rest he's needed in recent years.
The Lakers played 9 games without Kobe this year..Bynum missed 5 of these 9 games..
Pau's numbers in those 9 games: 21.4 PPG on 52% shooting, with 12.8 RPG, 4 APG and 2.8 BPG..sexy numbers..
The Lakers record: 6-3, including wins vs. San Antonio, @ Utah, @ Portland..2 of the 3 losses coming by a combined 3 points against Boston and Denver..
Yes, Kobe obviously helps a lot, but give credit where credit is due..
lame
I am looking at efficiency -- what are you looking at?
Did I mention PPG, APG, RPG? Nope. I'm looking at TS% (Gasol better), ORB% (Gasol better), Ast% (Gasol better). Duncan is better at DRB% and TO%. No excuse on the TO%, Gasol does tend to be TO-prone at times. But Gasol also plays alongside plus rebounders in Bynum, Odom, and Kobe which no doubt depresses his REB numbers.
Gasol plays a slightly more efficient game for significantly more minutes = a better player these days. The difference is even more marked in the playoffs.
What minutes except for garbage time are anything but "arduous minutes"?It's not the minutes, it's how arduous those minutes are. Trust me, if you watch the Spurs game to game, you'd know. If they sign Splitter and he lives up to expectations, Duncan should be able to finally get the proper help/rest he's needed in recent years.
You lose all cred when you say you would take current Duncan over current Gasol.
I have no problem with giving credit when credit's due, I'm just not going to sit here slobbering over and hyping up the next great white hype. He's not only not the best PF in the league, he's not even a PF. In today's game, to me he's more of a C, or a combination of both, but I'm not categorizing him with Nowitzki, Bosh, Stoudemire, etc.
And no, Gasol wasn't more efficient than Duncan this season. Duncan finished 5th at 24.79; Gasol finished 10th at 22.97.
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/holli...r%2fstatistics
Bucher, a clear Lakers fan thinks Duncan is still better than Gasol.
I know Lakers fans who hate the Spurs yet still think Duncan is better than Gasol.
This is not nearly as outlandish an opinion as some are making it out to be.
Last edited by TD 21; 05-20-2010 at 12:17 AM.
Misleading. If we have to hand out credits, it's well beyond Kobe. You have to include Bynum and Odom there too.
The Lakers were 9-6 without Pau. And only 8-7 without Bynum. When both Pau and Bynum played together they went 38-12.
Sure, Pau ended up the regular season on a statistical tear. Credits go to him for that.
Not sure why your obsession with calling him a C (he plays about 35% min at PF, 65% at C) but hey, you win... call him a C. That helps him because the average C is less productive than the average PF anyway. Makes Gasol out to be even better.
And frankly, who cares what Bucher or some "Lakers fans" think about Gasol vs. Duncan or the price of tea in China?
BTW, I wonder what your beloved PER says about their respective production in the POs?
If the guy plays most of his minutes at center, doesn't that essentially make him a center?
Not sure why your obsession with calling him a C (he plays about 35% min at PF, 65% at C) but hey, you win... call him a C. That helps him because the average C is less productive than the average PF anyway. Makes Gasol out to be even better.
And frankly, who cares what Bucher or some "Lakers fans" think about Gasol vs. Duncan or the price of tea in China?
BTW, I wonder what your beloved PER says about their respective production in the POs?
The thing people aren't realizing is that Gasol is virtually the same guy he was in Memphis. The biggest differences are that he is somewhat stronger, has become more effective on the boards, plays with a coach that runs a offense better suited to his skills and most of all he has better teammates. If you take any skilled and intelligent player from a poor situation to a better situation they always look better.
Gasol has not once surpassed the 20/10 threshold even during his days in Memphis. Even guys like Zach Randolph, Elton Brand, Carlos Boozer and Jermaine O'Neal have accomplished that feat at least once in their respective careers. He is a great 2nd-tier player and complimentary piece to Kobe, much like James Worthy to Magic, but he isn't an elite player.
Last edited by J_Paco; 05-20-2010 at 01:11 AM. Reason: Had to edit the Chamberlain line
Pau led Spain to success
This. Gasol is a very talented and skilled big, end of discussion. 10 years down the line, no one is going to mention his name alongside Duncan, Garnett, and Shaq.
Oh well. And 10 years from now Pau will have more rings than all those guys.
How's that obvious?
I hate when people make stupid claims like that just because.
0-12
I hate when people ask stupid questions like that just because.
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