So, Lakers don't know about zone defences!?

[mogrovejo]

See, this is why you look so damn foolish. You sit here and say oh well he went to the spot but the play didn't work. Funny thing about that guy you post in the middle. YOU HAVE TO PASS HIM THE ING BALL.

Genius II.

Really? The point is passing the ball? Let me guess, the ultimate goal is to put the ball in the basket.

Who's more admirable with coming up with those gems of basketball knowledge, you or Jamstone?

[cobbler]

So, the problem was execution? So, simply saying "attack the middle" doesn't get the job done?

The problem with any play that goes wrong is execution. The first step of any execution is to be in the correct spot. He said he didnt know where to go, and from my observations, I have to agree. That you feel he does know where to go is based on your mystical powers to decipher what he meant and not what he said. CLASSIC!!!!

I'm curious, did you actually get to touch a ball in your zone workshop or was it an internet workshop for basketball re s?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

So from this thread, we can all agree the key is execution. In related news:

boys have a penis
girls have a vagina
the sky is blue
ducks is re ed

[mogrovejo]

Andrew Bynum not knowing where the to go against the zone defense.

Lol almost getting in Kobe's way and then doing a carnival loop from the free throw line up around the three point line then back down towards the basket.

WTF was that?

"I didn't know where I was supposed to be."

Are you serious?

Where should he have been then?

[mogrovejo]

The problem with any play that goes wrong is execution. The first step of any execution is to be in the correct spot. He said he didnt know where to go, and from my observations, I have to agree. That you feel he does know where to go is based on your mystical powers to decipher what he meant and not what he said. CLASSIC!!!!

Okay.

So tell me where he should go.

[JamStone]

Are you kidding me?

You're now saying that he knew where to go sometimes but not in others?

No. I'm saying if he didn't know where the to go in the third quarter against the zone, how did he know where to go in the second quarter? I deduce that he actually didn't know where he was going in the second and only appeared to know, otherwise he would not have looked like such an ass against the zone later in the game.

Great, now it's a 10 years veteran or so who doesn't know where to go in a zone either.

Am I the only one who finds weird how so many NBA veterans don't know where to be in a zone when, according to Jamstone, it's so simple?

Maybe NBA teams should hire Jamstone as a consultant. Then he can write a 50 words post explaining how you attack a zone, the players read it and voilá, everybody knows where to go in a zone.

What a re .

Kobe, Gasol, Fisher, and Odom all looked like they knew what to do against the zone. Bynum looked like a butt . Artest looked lost too. I don't know why that is, but Artest apparently doesn't know what to do against a zone defense.

How is one other NBA veteran equivalent to "so many?"

I don't know everything about basketball. , I don't know half the college players and coaches know, much less NBA players and coaches. But I don't go around these boards always telling people they're stupid and yelling and screaming about obscure basketball statistics you have to pay to see or basketball workshops on the triangle offense. That's not me, bud.

I don't know any more about basketball than most people on here. I do know a little bit, but I'm not trying to talk down to people to make myself seem like I'm an expert. But I do know basic concepts about basketball. I do know how teams are supposed to attack a zone. That's something I've known a long time.

I don't claim to be a basketball or NBA expert. I don't know that much. The problem is you don't realize you don't either.

Hmm, yeah, they attack the zone with the 4 drifting to the perimeter. I explained it to you somewhere in this thread.

Ok. Thanks.

Yeah, nobody ever thought about telling Artest where to go in a zone.

Artest has no excuse just like Bynum has no excuse not to know where they should be when attacking the zone. Artest cut in front of two players almost overloading one side with all five Lakers. Again, Kobe, Fisher, Pau, and Odom looked fin against the zone. Artest is apparently an idiot. But that's not all that surprising.


Why don't you address Bynum looking lost in that one video, and the other video where Pau as the center flashed to the middle and forced the zone to collapse and got an open teammate a good look at a drive at the basket?

Why would you post one video where your point wasn't even made and then get all pompous like you were right and then not even respond to the other two videos I posted in rebuttal?

[LnGrrrR]

Why DIDN'T they pass him the ball in the post more often? Was the defense putting any pressure on the passing lanes? I didn't see anything too difficult.

Also, I don't see why it's so unlikely that a player may not know what to do in a specific instance. As Mogro said himself, there are various zones, and various ways to combat those zones. Why is it so easy to believe that may not know the "when" but he obviously knows the "where"?

[cobbler]

Genius II.

Really? The point is passing the ball? Let me guess, the ultimate goal is to put the ball in the basket.

Who's more admirable with coming up with those gems of basketball knowledge, you or Jamstone?

And to think we know so much more than you... and I never got the opportunity to take a basketball for dummies workshop.


BTW... I would venture to guess that many of today NBA players aren't real familiar with zones. It's rarely used in the NBA and not too many players these days stay in college more than a year or two to learn the concepts. Yes they all have been exposed to it, but if you don't practice it, or attend workshops , you will not be ready and lose composure.

[cobbler]

Okay.

So tell me where he should go.

To a workshop.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

To a workshop.

lol workshop

[cobbler]

Why DIDN'T they pass him the ball in the post more often? Was the defense putting any pressure on the passing lanes? I didn't see anything too difficult.

Also, I don't see why it's so unlikely that a player may not know what to do in a specific instance. As Mogro said himself, there are various zones, and various ways to combat those zones. Why is it so easy to believe that may not know the "when" but he obviously knows the "where"?

We do believe he didn't know. It's clear as day. Mongro is arguing he did. I would love to be able to sit here and say Drew knew exactly what to do they just didnt execute it well. But when I see him running around lost and he tells us in a post game interview he was confused, I belive the man. Can't possibly see any reason for him to state that if it wasn't true.

Mongro is just arguing to argue... and looking quite foolish doing so.

[JamStone]

It's not that simple.

You seem to believe it's only a matter of willingness, of trying. That they just weren't smart enough to make the pass.

It doesn't work that way.

Have you ever played structured basketball with zones?

You posted a video to show Bynum knew what he was doing and then in the process tried to make a point that what I said about attacking the middle of the zone was inaccurate. The problem with that argument is that the clip you posted shows they didn't attack the middle of the zone and merely swung the ball around and settled for a jumper, therein NOT attacking the middle of the zone.

In the subsequent clip I posted, the Lakers were able to get the ball to Pau when he flashed to the middle. In the clip you posted, they didn't even try. They were content to swing the ball around the perimeter and shoot a jumper. I didn't say they weren't smart enough to make the pass. Don't know where you inferred that from. But they didn't even make an attempt. That's lazy offense. And yes, at least part of it is a matter of trying.

I haven't played any organized basketball beyond high school. I've played in plenty of basketball leagues as an adult, but they aren't even as structured as high school basketball, and there are plenty of people in those leagues that never even played high school. I've played structured offense against the zone way back in high school and a little in some of the leagues I've played in as an adult but not really much because it's basically slightly more organized pick-up ball a lot of the time. I've coached some of those league teams but again, I don't claim to know all that much about basketball other than a lot of basic stuff most people know. I do know enough about zone defenses that I'm not bull ting when I talk about them.

Are you serious?

Where should he have been then?

Lol, did you watch the video?

First, Bynum starts by going down to the low block. Ball gets swung to the left. Bynum gets cut off by Ron Artest (that's one of the reasons I said Artest looked stupid against the zone too) and then just stands still for a split second. Kobe gets the ball back at the top of the key. Where does Bynum go? He moves towards the elbow as if he's going to receive a pass out by the three point line. Under no cir stance is he supposed to go flash OUT to the three point line elbow to receive a pass. At that point, he doesn't know what the he's supposed to do. Basically gets in Kobe's dribble so he circles around to the top of the key and actually runs right in front of Pau Gasol as Gasol is shooting a jumper.

The whole sequence screams Andrew Bynum is lost and doesn't know what the he is doing. Suggesting otherwise is blatantly ignoring the clip.

In this thread, you said it's not that Bynum doesn't know where to go but rather it was about execution. That clip unequivocally refutes that notion.

[mogrovejo]

Why DIDN'T they pass him the ball in the post more often? Was the defense putting any pressure on the passing lanes? I didn't see anything too difficult.

Also, I don't see why it's so unlikely that a player may not know what to do in a specific instance. As Mogro said himself, there are various zones, and various ways to combat those zones. Why is it so easy to believe that may not know the "when" but he obviously knows the "where"?

There are plenty of "wheres" in this discussion.

Jamstone is pretending that it's set in stone that the big flashes to the middle and that's it. And that is that what Bynum didn't know - that you attack the zone by getting the ball into the middle of it (which forces the zone to collapse).

But there's a lot more to it. Bynum has been playing basketball for years. What Jamstone describes as the strategy to attack the zone he has heard multiple times. During the half-time the Lakers had a video session about attacking the zone - with film from the first half of the game.

Are we all really going to pretend that Bynum didn't know that the point is to "attack the middle"? I mean, he did the move Jamstone seems to believe it's the be all end all of a zone offense.

But if it was that easy to "attack the middle", zones would be useless.

There were lots of Lakers lost and uncertain of what to do versus that zone. Heck, in plenty of those videos Gasol does everything but "attacking the middle".

Without speed and synchronization, without knowing what to do and where to go in a precise moment, depending on where the ball, teammates and opponents are, you don't break a zone, even if you go through all the motions.

In that play, Odom was late going to the wing to catch the pass from the side reversal. If he had moved earlier, he'd have god either an open driving or passing lane and an open guy in the corner (Brown, I think). He didn't and that slowed down their passing. And if the outside passing isn't quick, you have no hope of passing the ball inside - unless by running massive risks of turning over the ball. So, Odom is apparently another guy who don't know where to go in a zone.

[cobbler]

Class...today's workshop is all about Zone offense and defense.

Mongro... pay attention. I don't want to have to keep you back and not let you move on to the dribbling and passing classes.

[mogrovejo]

You posted a video to show Bynum knew what he was doing and then in the process tried to make a point that what I said about attacking the middle of the zone was inaccurate. The problem with that argument is that the clip you posted shows they didn't attack the middle of the zone and merely swung the ball around and settled for a jumper, therein NOT attacking the middle of the zone.

I'm not sure you understand my point.

My point was simply to show that "flashing to the middle" only takes you that far. That Bynum actually went to where you think he should go. Meaning he probably knew where to go. And yet, he was lost.

In the subsequent clip I posted, the Lakers were able to get the ball to Pau when he flashed to the middle. In the clip you posted, they didn't even try. They were content to swing the ball around the perimeter and shoot a jumper. I didn't say they weren't smart enough to make the pass. Don't know where you inferred that from. But they didn't even make an attempt. That's lazy offense. And yes, at least part of it is a matter of trying.

Nope, it's a matter of moving the ball too slowly.

Lol, did you watch the video?

Nah, I actually introduced you to the videos but I didn't watch them myself.

First, Bynum starts by going down to the low block. Ball gets swung to the left. Bynum gets cut off by Ron Artest (that's one of the reasons I said Artest looked stupid against the zone too) and then just stands still for a split second. Kobe gets the ball back at the top of the key. Where does Bynum go? He moves towards the elbow as if he's going to receive a pass out by the three point line. Under no cir stance is he supposed to go flash OUT to the three point line elbow to receive a pass. At that point, he doesn't know what the he's supposed to do. Basically gets in Kobe's dribble so he circles around to the top of the key and actually runs right in front of Pau Gasol as Gasol is shooting a jumper.

Really? I find that odd, considering your previous statements about the spacing they were using.

So, can you answer: where was he supposed to go?

[cobbler]

My point was simply to show that "flashing to the middle" only takes you that far. That Bynum actually went to where you think he should go. Meaning he probably knew where to go. And yet, he was lost.

So Bynum says he didn't know where to go.... and you say he did.

I'm going with Drew on this one.

[HarlemHeat37]

As an unbiased observer, mogrovejo is really killing this argument..

I'm ignoring Cobbler's parts, since he's a proven idiot..Mr. Unquantifiable arguments..

[Edward]

As an unbiased observer, mogrovejo is really killing this argument..

[mogrovejo]

So Bynum says he didn't know where to go.... and you say he did.

I'm going with Drew on this one.

Okay, but Jamstone is going to be mad at you. He actually agrees that Bynum moved to the right spot in that video.

[cobbler]

As an unbiased observer, mogrovejo is really killing this argument..

I'm ignoring Cobbler's parts, since he's a proven idiot..Mr. Unquantifiable arguments..

Ohhh I'm soooooo hurt. And it's no doubt you would think Mongro is killing it. He's about as stupid as you... not quite... but very close.

VC... top 10 and HOF

[JamStone]

There are plenty of "wheres" in this discussion.

Jamstone is pretending that it's set in stone that the big flashes to the middle and that's it. And that is that what Bynum didn't know - that you attack the zone by getting the ball into the middle of it (which forces the zone to collapse).

No I didn't. I said that it's the most basic way to attack the zone. In this thread, I've specifically said there are other ways to attack the zone.

But there's a lot more to it. Bynum has been playing basketball for years. What Jamstone describes as the strategy to attack the zone he has heard multiple times. During the half-time the Lakers had a video session about attacking the zone - with film from the first half of the game.

Awesome. You got to attend a triangle offense workshop AND sit in at the Lakers halftime session.

Are we all really going to pretend that Bynum didn't know that the point is to "attack the middle"? I mean, he did the move Jamstone seems to believe it's the be all end all of a zone offense.

Again, misrepresenting what I said. I've said several times that it's not the only way to attack the zone, but it is the most basic way to. It is not the end all and be all of zone offense. Never said that. If that's what you interpreted from what I've posted, then you misinterpreted.

But if it was that easy to "attack the middle", zones would be useless.

The zone is pretty useless. That's one of the reasons it's so rarely used. Patient teams can beat the zone rather effectively because disciplined offenses can create a lot of gaps and holes against zones. And most NBA teams have at least a couple great outside shooters that can be zone busters.

There were lots of Lakers lost and uncertain of what to do versus that zone. Heck, in plenty of those videos Gasol does everything but "attacking the middle".

There were two: Bynum and Artest. None of the other Lakers looked lost and uncertain.

Without speed and synchronization, without knowing what to do and where to go in a precise moment, depending on where the ball, teammates and opponents are, you don't break a zone, even if you go through all the motions.

In that play, Odom was late going to the wing to catch the pass from the side reversal. If he had moved earlier, he'd have god either an open driving or passing lane and an open guy in the corner (Brown, I think). So, Odom is apparently another guy who don't know where to go in a zone.

Odom was moving fine. He wasn't late. He wasn't lazy. The team didn't get the basketball in the middle and wasted time playing soft toss out at the three point line. Then they settled for a long jumper without anyone really moving on offense. It was a poor sequence. But Odom didn't look lost or uncertain.

[HarlemHeat37]

Ohhh I'm soooooo hurt. And it's no doubt you would think Mongro is killing it. He's about as stupid as you... not quite... but very close.

VC... top 10 and HOF

link?..

[mogrovejo]

Odom was moving fine. He wasn't late. He wasn't lazy. The team didn't get the basketball in the middle and wasted time playing soft toss out at the three point line. Then they settled for a long jumper without anyone really moving on offense. It was a poor sequence. But Odom didn't look lost or uncertain.

Why didn't he pass the ball to Bynum them? A few minutes ago you said it was lazy offense. Now you say he wasn't lazy.

C'mon, you're melting down here.

What is it?

[cobbler]

Okay, but Jamstone is going to be mad at you. He actually agrees that Bynum moved to the right spot in that video.

Cause he did. A blind squirrel finds an acorn evey once in awhile. Did he do the right thing consistently, I doubt it. I'm not going to waste time reviewing the video. I will take the man for his word.

It baffles me how a man can admit to not knowing something and you can argue that he did. Just mind boggling. Thgat you waivered so often in the thread doesn't help your argument either.

Maybe you can look up a good workshop on debating?

[JamStone]

So, can you answer: where was he supposed to go?

Once the ball is rotated back to the top of the key, he should drop back down to the low block. Artest should be at the elbow, but he had already cut towards the ball previously and overloaded the left side. But Bynum should not be trying to go out to the three point line elbow to receive the ball.