Has Kobe Eclipsed Shaq's legacy?

[Giuseppe]

It's 15 NBA World Championships. And I ain't givin' up nary a one for money, marbles, nor chalk.

Savvy?

[jcrod]

While I agree that Magic beat better teams, beat a lot of championship teams, and I do believe Jordan didn't have as great a compe ion as in the 80s until those Lakers, Boston, Detroit teams got old, and while I'm as big a Michael Jordan hater as there is on these boards, I won't sell the guy short. Especially if you look at teams like the Stockton-Malone Jazz or even the one year Phoenix got there, or even the Blazers, Michael Jordan is the very reason they didn't win at least one championship. Jordan's compe ion would have been viewed differently had one or two of those teams at least one le. Jordan prevented that from happening.

Jordan >>>>> Magic

And I was a huge Magic fan growing up and admitted Jordan hater.

This and to be honest Jordan didn't have great players on the team besides pippen. Magic had stacked teams, he had a lot of help.

[21_Blessings]

This and to be honest Jordan didn't have great players on the team besides pippen. Magic had stacked teams, he had a lot of help.

Jordan had stacked teams. He had a lot of help. What the are you talking about

[TheManFromAcme]

Jordan had stacked teams. He had a lot of help. What the are you talking about

No joke. It wasn't just Pippen

[MiamiHeat]

cue Laker fans raising rebounding specialist Rodman into Hall of Fame status

Luc Longley will turn into Bill Russel, the defensive minded shot blocker,

the white guys who could shoot 3's will turn into Reggie Millers

[Booharv]

Everyone remember this is the thread where BRHornets said Fisher was equal to Kobe as a Laker.

[Booharv]

sons honestly I think that Fisher deserves to be right up there and arguably ahead of Kobe's status as a Laker. dude has always been clutch and actually improves his teammates and makes smart shot selections. Kobe has actually made his teammates worse and has been extremely lucky over the years when many of his teammates have bailed him out when making selfish shot decisions. (most recently Gasol saving his ass in OKC with the tip in after that ridiculously selfish shot, and then Artest saving his embarrassing air ball the other night)

[Ghazi]

BR Hornet just has not mentally recovered from 121-63. It seemed to have turned him into a D level poster.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I'm not gonna call him the best Laker since half of his career was in Milwaukee, but IMO Kareem is the 2nd best player of all time due to how long he maintained a high level of play. At age 38 he was 1st all NBA center over the likes of Moses Malone and Hakeem Olajuwon. Kobe is probably 2nd to only Magic as a Laker if he wins it all this year, but still not as impressive as Kareem career wise.

[lefty]

[MiamiHeat]

I'm not gonna call him the best Laker since half of his career was in Milwaukee, but IMO Kareem is the 2nd best player of all time due to how long he maintained a high level of play. At age 38 he was 1st all NBA center over the likes of Moses Malone and Hakeem Olajuwon. Kobe is probably 2nd to only Magic as a Laker if he wins it all this year, but still not as impressive as Kareem career wise.

now there's a quality viewpoint on this.

[galvatron3000]

Never liked when people argued this.

Making it to the NBA Finals and losing is better than not making it to the NBA Finals at all, right?

My argument is when he went he didn't lose plus when he went Duncan lead his team there, in comparison to someone saying he has dumped on Duncan for 10 years. Sure it's better to go than not go but it's better too win period. I commend all the runner ups because it's difficult to get there let alone win but to say Duncan was dumped on by Kobe the last 10 years is just absurd. Not only has Duncan had a better 10 year span but he's older and on the decline. He did much more with the team's he was surrounded with than Kobe and Shaq carried those 3 peat Lakers team though Kobe was huge in them after Shaq left it was over, when Robinson left Dunca still held his own.

[JamStone]

I've read the thread and I know what you're responding to.

I pointed out very specifically your one comment about Duncan never losing in the Finals. Whatever argument you're responding to, that point is a weak one to me.

Unless Duncan has made the NBA Finals every single year in his career and never lost one, it is not more impressive to me that he hasn't lost any versus another player winning as many les and losing two more in the Finals. It only tells me that the player got to the Finals more times. It's not more impressive losing in the first round or second round or conference finals than losing in the NBA Finals. It's just not. I think it's a weak thing to point out.

[MiamiHeat]

Unless Duncan has made the NBA Finals every single year in his career and never lost one, it is not more impressive to me that he hasn't lost any versus another player winning as many les and losing two more in the Finals. It only tells me that the player got to the Finals more times. It's not more impressive losing in the first round or second round or conference finals than losing in the NBA Finals. It's just not. I think it's a weak thing to point out.

The player that got to the Finals had a good enough team to win it all and failed.

The player who failed to make the Finals did not have an adequate enough team around him.

Yes, it's worse to make it to the Finals and lose. You failed.

[cobbler]

Yes, it's worse to make it to the Finals and lose. You failed.

I'd be curious to hear Steve Nash's opinion on this.


LOL losing in opening rounds > losing in finals.

[Agloco]

What do you think? And is he the greatest Laker of all of time?

I think he has surpassed Shaq, Kareem and West. What about Magic?

No way, that mantle will always belong to Worthy, IMO anyways.

[BadOdor]

The player that got to the Finals had a good enough team to win it all and failed.

The player who failed to make the Finals did not have an adequate enough team around him.

Yes, it's worse to make it to the Finals and lose. You failed.

Jason kid made it to the finals and "failed". You think he'd rather have lost in the first round? lol heating pizza.

[MiamiHeat]

Jason kid made it to the finals and "failed". You think he'd rather have lost in the first round? lol heating pizza.

Losing in the first round, you can always write it off as another ty year surrounded by an inadequate team. Having to overachieve, to carry your team through all of the playoffs just to REACH the finals, you quickly realize you didn't have the right team around you.

however,

Reaching and losing in the Finals, your team made it, they are good enough. Only one team left to beat, you can't help but question yourself for failing.

You think Jordan loses sleep for getting bounced in the first round by Boston in the 85 playoffs?

Now, do you think Jordan would lose sleep if he lost to Utah in 1998 Finals?

If you made the Finals, your team is good enough to win it all. Failure rests on the leaders of the team and it's a much harder thing to forget.

[BadOdor]

Losing in the first round, you can always write it off as another ty year surrounded by an inadequate team. Having to overachieve, to carry your team through all of the playoffs just to REACH the finals, you quickly realize you didn't have the right team around you.

however,

Reaching and losing in the Finals, your team made it, they are good enough. Only one team left to beat, you can't help but question yourself for failing.

You think Jordan loses sleep for getting bounced in the first round by Boston in the 85 playoffs?

Now, do you think Jordan would lose sleep if he lost to Utah in 1998 Finals?

If you made the Finals, your team is good enough to win it all. Failure rests on the leaders of the team and it's a much harder thing to forget.

If you asked any player in the NBA, would he rather lose in the first round, or lose in the NBA finals, what do you think the answer would be? Jesus Christ you are really really stupid.

[Ghazi]

"If you made the Finals, your team is good enough to win it all"

'02/'03 Nets and '07 Cavs and a load of other teams throughout history beg to differ.

lol, lol... lol

[BadOdor]

"If you made the Finals, your team is good enough to win it all"

'02/'03 Nets and '07 Cavs and a load of other teams throughout history beg to differ.

lol, lol... lol

Ghazi, you might be a turban-wearing, pokemon playing, 250$ hand-job paying terrorist, but damn if I don't agree with you here!

[cobbler]

Losing in the first round, you can always write it off as another ty year surrounded by an inadequate team.

This is the differece in people who actually play the game and compete and those who talk a big game from their armchair. A loss is a loss. You don't write them off. EVER!

You think Jordan loses sleep for getting bounced in the first round by Boston in the 85 playoffs?.

Absolutely. I would expect no less. Knowing his compe iveness, I would think that the norm. Wouldn't you?

Now, do you think Jordan would lose sleep if he lost to Utah in 1998 Finals?.

Absolutely. I would expect no less. Knowing his compe iveness, I would think that the norm. Wouldn't you?

If you made the Finals, your team is good enough to win it all. Failure rests on the leaders of the team and it's a much harder thing to forget.

Why do you assume this. Maybe your team was mediocre and you got them there with heroics and luck. Maybe injuries played a role. There are a mul ude of reasons for getting to the finals and to suggest it is better to lose in the earlier rounds is just plain....

well...

you!

[galvatron3000]

I've read the thread and I know what you're responding to.

I pointed out very specifically your one comment about Duncan never losing in the Finals. Whatever argument you're responding to, that point is a weak one to me.

Unless Duncan has made the NBA Finals every single year in his career and never lost one, it is not more impressive to me that he hasn't lost any versus another player winning as many les and losing two more in the Finals. It only tells me that the player got to the Finals more times. It's not more impressive losing in the first round or second round or conference finals than losing in the NBA Finals. It's just not. I think it's a weak thing to point out.

How is never losing in the Finals a weak point, Jordan never lost in the Finals I guess that's a weak point too. I wasn't making the point you are suggesting and pointed that out. Again to say Kobe has dumped on Duncan for 10 years is crazy and stupid.

[elbamba]

Kobe was every bit as important as Shaq on the championship teams. LA had Eddie Jones during his best days and could not win a championship. Those LA teams were stacked with talent and couldn't win until Kobe grew up.

I would argue that shaq was the better and more important player on the 2000-2002 championship teams, however, Kobe was no Pippen. As much as I don't like him, it shows a great ignorance to limit his role to a sidekick.

Finally, there is no doubt that Kobe is LA's best player. Just like Tony and Manu complimented Tim in 05 and 07, without Tim the Spurs don't win those championships, not even close and the players would admit it themselves. Gasol is a key player, but he is not the leader or the best player, that is all Kobe.

[JamStone]

It's not the fact that Jordan never lost in the Finals. It's more impressive that Jordan went to 6 Finals. Dwyane Wade never lost in the Finals. Is that more impressive than Kobe winning 4 and losing 2?

I wasn't the one saying Kobe has dumped on Duncan for 10 years.

My argument is that you arguing against that, saying Duncan never losing in the Finals doesn't help prove your point, especially considering that both times Kobe and the Lakers lost in the Finals, the Lakers beat the Spurs along the way.