Where have my feeling outweighed my insistence of natural laws and rights of self preservation.It's really sad when a person cannot admit that they're simply wrong. WC claims to be person of science, yet he clings to his "feelings" in this situation over the law to ascertain what's right and wrong. It's depressing.
None of this would have happened if groups of terrorists would stop trying to destroy Israel. You want to blame Israel for protecting themselves in a manner they think appropriate and legal. It's not me that is forgetting that cultures and methodologies are different in other nations. Those of you convicting Israel over this are placing your standards over them. Most of you doing this are of the same mindset that claim to believe in multiculturalism, then refuse to see it from that different viewpoint.
Israel has an internationally accepted blockade in place. You may not like how they enforce it, but their methods are effective.
Leave it to the New York Slimes to misrepresent the truth.
What does "of Turkish decent" mean to you? The intended impression is his ancestry is from Turkey, but born in the USA.
Bull . You really have to watch how these left wing outlets mislead people.
He is from Kayseri, Turkey. A naturalized citizen, not born here. No mention of how old he was when his parents brought him here. He may be American by paper only.
So you're ok with Hamas shooting rockets at Israeli civilians. You know, they have their own 'culture and methodology'. I personally do not, and condemn those acts.
I don't believe in violence against civilians, no matter who does it or what flags they're waving, and that has nothing to do with multiculturalism.
Israel has every right to do whatever it wants to do within it's boundaries. Outside of their jurisdiction, they need to behave just like every other good nation in the world, respecting the laws and treaties that they agreed to uphold. If they need help from the international community to comply, I'm sure they'll get all the help they need from their allies.
Luckily, rumors have started circulating that Israel is looking to comply with international law going forward. This is an excerpt from an article today:
Israel’s Channel 2 television news reported on Thursday that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu had proposed to Tony Blair, the international envoy of the so-called quartet of Middle East peacemakers, that an international naval force inspect future aid ships bound for Gaza.
This is a good sign. It means that a workable solution is out there. Let's hope it comes to fruition.
We welcome comments from people that have insightful things to say. You've shown to understand what the discussion is and are definitely welcome to contribute.
I would say that even if we didn't agree initially, I thought we had a great exchange when the news broke out.
I agree. Generalizations are almost always unfair and simply wrong.
So what does that matter?
Do you consider him less a citizen than others such as yourself?
Actually he was born in USA and moved to Turkey.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/10236884.stmThe youngest of the dead activists, 19-year-old Furkan Dogan - who was born in the US but moved to Turkey as a child - is being buried in his hometown of Kayseri in central Turkey on Friday.
OK, I stand corrected. So he is technically a US citizen by birth, but it's worse than I thought. He was raised in Turkey rather than here.
look at those animals in the video! they would have undoubtedly attacked the young boy if not for police interference, and why? because he's Israeli.
Israel diverts Gaza aid ship Rachel Corrie to Ashdod
An aid ship intercepted by the Israeli military while trying to break the blockade of Gaza has arrived in the Israeli port of Ashdod.
Israel says its soldiers boarded the Irish-owned Rachel Corrie from the sea and did not meet any resistance.
There has been no word from those on board, who include several activists.
The incident comes five days after nine people were killed in clashes when troops boarded a Turkish aid ship, prompting international criticism.
Israel says it will question those on board at the port and transfer the aid to the Gaza Strip by land after checking the cargo for banned items.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu hailed the peaceful outcome to the operation.
The Israeli military issued footage of the Rachel Corrie boarding
"We saw today the difference between a ship of peace activists, with whom we don't agree but respect their right to a different opinion from ours, and between a ship of hate organised by violent Turkish terror extremists," Mr Netanyahu's office quoted him as saying.
Mary Hughes, a co-founder of the Free Gaza Movement which organised the shipment, told the BBC she was "outraged" by the latest Israeli action.
"They (the Israelis) once again went into international water and violently boarded a boat and forced people against their will to go to Israel, when all we wanted was to be left to go to Gaza, which is our goal," she said.
She added that further aid shipments to Gaza would be organised.
"We will continue until we break the siege," she said.
article continues
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...times-1.294255Nine Turkish activists killed in an Israeli raid on a Gaza-bound aid ship were shot a total of 30 times and five died of gunshot wounds to the head, Britain's Guardian newspaper reported on Friday.
Israeli commandos stormed a flotilla of aid ships planning to break the Israeli sea blockade of Gaza on Monday. The deaths, which all took place on one ship, the Mavi Marmara, drew widespread condemnation.
Israel said the marines who rappelled onto the Mavi Marmara fired in self-defense after activists attacked them with clubs and knives as well as two pistols snatched from the commandos.
The autopsy results showed that a 60-year-old man, Ibrahim Bilgen, was shot four times in the temple, chest, hip and back, the Guardian said.
A 19-year-old, named as Fulkan Dogan, who also has U.S. citizenship, as shot five times from less than 45 cm away, in the face, the back of the head, twice in the leg and once in the back, it said.
Two other men were shot four times. Five of those killed were shot either in the back of the head or in the back, the Guardian quoted Buyuk as saying.
let me get this straight, first you accuse him of being "just" a naturalized American or in your words "in paper only" as if being that makes him somehow less of a citizen than you, then when you're proven to be full of you move the goal posts and now the fact that he was born in the US makes no difference because he was raised somewhere else...
Seriously, you have got to be the most full of poster in this forum. I've never seen anyone argue for so long on no ing point at all. You make it look like an art form.
So, when Israeli soldiers board a ship and aren't immediately attacked with clubs, knives, and axes, they don't have to resort to self-defense? What a concept.
...in international waters.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...MNCB1DP01I.DTL
As another ship carrying activists and supplies heads toward besieged Gaza, Israel is asserting the right to stop and search the vessel as it did earlier this week, when commandos boarded a flotilla in international waters and shot and killed nine passengers.
Normally, a nation that seizes a ship on the high seas, beyond its territorial waters, is guilty of piracy. But a nation that is enforcing a blockade in wartime has the right to board a ship that it reasonably suspects of carrying contraband for the cordoned-off area.
That raises the critical question of whether Israel acted legally nearly three years ago when it imposed a blockade on Gaza after withdrawing its troops. Most, though not all, scholars surveyed by The Chronicle said the blockade was legal.
"Israel has suffered rocket attacks that have been launched from Gaza and has the right of self-defense," said Chimene Keitner, an associate professor at UC Hastings College of the Law in San Francisco who specializes in international criminal law.
Essentials allowed
"Under international law, the blockade probably can be justified," Keitner said. At the same time, she said, the law en les civilians in a blockaded area to receive food, medicine and other essentials, and Israel may be violating that requirement.
"Most international lawyers ... would say a blockade is permissible in an armed conflict, and it includes the ability to stop and search ships in international waters," said Allen Weiner, co-director of Stanford's International Law Program. Although Israel has the right to control its border with Gaza, he added, it has applied a "choke hold ... that most of the world views as cruel and unjust."
Supplies on the ships included cement to rebuild some of the thousands of homes destroyed in Israeli bombing raids a year and a half ago. The blockade bars shipments of cement because it might be used for military purposes. Do ents obtained by the Israeli human rights group Gisha have disclosed that chocolate, potato chips, fresh meat and fishing rods are also excluded.
'Armed conflict'?
Other scholars said it's not clear that Israel is in an "international armed conflict" with Gaza's Hamas leaders, a prerequisite for a legal blockade.
For such a conflict to exist, Israel would have to acknowledge that it is occupying Gaza, said Michael Scharf, an international law professor at Case Western Reserve University in Ohio and a former State Department attorney under Presidents George H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton.
The Obama administration has expressed no such qualms. Vice President Joe Biden said Wednesday that Israel is en led to enforce its blockade.
"Israel has a right to know - they're at war with Hamas - has a right to know whether or not arms are being smuggled in," Biden told PBS' Charlie Rose. "It's legitimate for Israel to say, 'I don't know what's on that ship. These guys are dropping ... 3,000 rockets on my people.' ''
U.N. official's protest
Richard Falk, the United Nations' human rights investigator for the Palestinian territories, has a sharply different view. After the commando raid Monday, he called the Gaza blockade "a crime against humanity" and advocated prosecution of Israeli leaders who ordered the ships seized.
Falk, a former professor of international law at Princeton University, said Israel had shot unarmed civilians on ships "in the high seas where freedom of navigation exists."
Israel says its blockade is legal and humane and its forces defended themselves from shipboard attacks. Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor said the ship's passengers "have wrapped themselves in a humanitarian cloak" while "engaging in political propaganda."
Beyond the factual disagreements is another legal dispute, with Falk arguing that Israeli forces, as aggressors, had no right of self-defense, while the passengers were en led to protect themselves.
But Ruth Wedgwood, a professor of international law at Johns Hopkins University, said the ships were legally required to allow the Israelis to board.
'Made-for-TV' meeting
"This was a made-for-TV confrontation," she said. "It ought to have been resolved by having the Freedom Flotilla submit to search. Then you could have had a principled dispute about whether Israel is refusing humanitarian aid to Gaza."
Meanwhile, an Irish vessel has left Malta with 19 aboard, including Mairead Corrigan Maguire, who shared the Nobel Peace Prize in 1976 for her work against violence in Northern Ireland.
The ship is due to reach Gaza early today. Israel has vowed to intercept it.
Did you miss post #280:
Excerpts from San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflict at Sea:
SECTION VI : CAPTURE OF NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND GOODS
146. Neutral merchant vessels are subject to capture outside neutral waters if they are engaged in any of the activities referred to in paragraph 67 or if it is determined as a result of visit and search or by other means, that they:
(a) are carrying contraband;
(b) are on a voyage especially undertaken with a view to the transport of individual passengers who are embodied in the armed forces of the enemy;
(c) are operating directly under enemy control, orders, charter, employment or direction;
(d) present irregular or fraudulent do ents, lack necessary do ents, or destroy, deface or conceal do ents;
(e) are violating regulations established by a belligerent within the immediate area of naval operations; or
(f) are breaching or attempting to breach a blockade.
Capture of a neutral merchant vessel is exercised by taking such vessel as prize for adjudication.SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT
Neutral merchant vessels
67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:
(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
(b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;
(c) act as auxiliaries to the enemy s armed forces;
(d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy s intelligence system;
(e) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or
(f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless cir stances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.
"Most international lawyers ... would say a blockade is permissible in an armed conflict, and it includes the ability to stop and search ships in international waters,"
Correct. They can intercept and request to search the ship. However, Israel declined to do so. They haven't searched any of the ships at sea.
You missed post #288, excerpts from the same San Remo manual...
Not a new concept. 5 of the 6 previous ships didn't respond violently.
That doesn't mean that Israel has any right to board the ships in the first place.
No I didn't. I said something about it before.
Sometimes things are in conflict. Israel has unequivocal proof that the ships were going to run the blockade. It was not a valid charitable relief ship like say, Red Cross. The group was full of Palestinian sympathizers and activists. It is proper to assume that some supplies are military, in which case, it is definitely not shielded by your argument.
Now I now you will talk about innocent till proven guilty. We have that concept. It doesn't work like that in most of the world.
Consider two rules of law in conflict. Israel did what they thought was right. Under the cir stances, I think if this ever goes to a legal hearing, Israel will win.
I think opinion varies on this. You can say it's illegal all you want and I can find numerous maritime attorneys that say it is legal.
Did commandos with guns drop from helicopters this time?
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