Kobe vs Duncan

[dirk4mvp]

Lol did you really just post that?

Coming from kobefan who says Kobe gets so much hate, the most popular player on the planet?

[JamStone]

The thing is if the Lakers go Chris Wallace-mode and trade David Robinson (Duncan's best teammate in 1999) for Shaq (Kobe's best teammate in 1999) before the 2000 season, which would be an all-time stupid move but still, Duncan has seven championships and Kobe has 2. As a matter of fact, if 2007-09 D-Wade had the Prime Shaq-Cheat code they would probably three-peat. Same with 2007-09 Lebron. I'm fully aware of Shaq's weaknesses. He can't shoot FT's, he took advantage of the fact that centers have sucked a since about the 1994-95 D-Rob, Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq era, and you can't go to him in the clutch since he can't shoot FT's (not pictured anywhere on this list, Shaquille O'Neal: http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm) but with D-Wade to hit the clutch shots and score like crazy for him they would three-peat. Now, Lebron hasn't been as good in the clutch as D-Wade and Kobe (excluding game 7) but I would argue Lebron+Prime Shaq-Cheat code would be so good the first 46 the last 2 wouldn't matter.

Tbh, I think that the fact is a lot of players could three-peat with that Shaq. Pretty much any top 30-35 player imo and maybe even 90-92 Clyde Drexler (Clyde was a close game seven in 1991 versus the Lakers from making three straight Finals), meaning Jordan might not have won until 1993 . That version of Shaq could get a load of great players easy championships.

Make it more interesting.

In 2000, have the Lakers trade Shaq for Duncan.

Kobe and Duncan. Shaq and Robinson. They meet for the next four seasons. Who wins the les in those four years?

[Booharv]

Make it more interesting.

In 2000, have the Lakers trade Shaq for Duncan.

Kobe and Duncan. Shaq and Robinson. They meet for the next four seasons. Who wins the les in those four years?

I don't understand this. This thread is comparing Kobe and Duncan, if they're on the same team then we're comparing Duncan to Shaq. Aka Shaq-Kobe to Duncan-Kobe. My point is that prime Duncan never had the Prime Shaq-Cheat Code. And besides Robinson is by far the worst of the four here in this time period and Duncan had him not Shaq as his teammate then.

[Booharv]

[JamStone]

I don't understand this. This thread is comparing Kobe and Duncan, if they're on the same team then we're comparing Duncan to Shaq. Aka Shaq-Kobe to Duncan-Kobe. My point is that prime Duncan never had the Prime Shaq-Cheat Code. And besides Robinson is by far the worst of the four here in this time period and Duncan had him not Shaq as his teammate then.

Discussion has been in a tangent debate regarding Shaq's impact/importance versus Kobe's. If you give Shaq a top 5 player in the league and give Kobe an aging and ailing center, of course I'd take Shaq's situation over Kobe's as to who will have more success.

There was no other real dominant center in the late 90s early 2000s. Duncan is probably the only one you could argue but he's a PF.

But let's say trade Kobe on those Lakers teams with Vince Carter or Tracy McGrady. And then pit them against a team by trading Shaq on those Lakers teams with Duncan. Shaq-Vince or Shaq-TMac isn't guaranteed to beat Kobe-Duncan. I'd probably put my bet on Kobe-Duncan.

This is where we disagree. I don't think you can plug any player next to Shaq and he wins three straight les. I don't think Drexler does it like you mention. I don't buy that.

[Booharv]

Discussion has been in a tangent debate regarding Shaq's impact/importance versus Kobe's. If you give Shaq a top 5 player in the league and give Kobe an aging and ailing center, of course I'd take Shaq's situation over Kobe's as to who will have more success.

There was no other real dominant center in the late 90s early 2000s. Duncan is probably the only one you could argue but he's a PF.

But let's say trade Kobe on those Lakers teams with Vince Carter or Tracy McGrady. And then pit them against a team by trading Shaq on those Lakers teams with Duncan. Shaq-Vince or Shaq-TMac isn't guaranteed to beat Kobe-Duncan. I'd probably put my bet on Kobe-Duncan.

This is where we disagree. I don't think you can plug any player next to Shaq and he wins three straight les. I don't think Drexler does it like you mention. I don't buy that.

I said top 30-35 player earlier. Of course, I've been over simplifying, the supporting cast would be extremely important but I'm assuming a decent championship level supporting cast. Which, with Prime Shaq-Cheat code plus a top 35 player wouldn't need to be that great of a supporting cast imo. Tbh, Clyde didn't have much help in 1990-92 at all (Terry Porter as your second best player?) and still carried his team pretty far but if you disagree, fair enough.

You did make one awesome point I agree with in this thread though. To sidetrack for one second, Magic was the best player on three le teams. People forget that Kareem was averaging like 33 a game through five in the 1980 Finals and really should probably still have been the Finals MVP even with the missed game 6. If you read on the history of it, the reason people were so worried when Kareem went down is because he was setting fire to the Sixers in that series. They just couldn't stop him. Magic won the Finals MVP really on the basis of that one game plus the shock value of the Lakers best player going down and Magic defying all odds for one game and carrying his team to victory. Plus the fact that he jumped the opening tip has been beaten to death. How important is the opening tip, really? That game was more of a Villanova/NC State upset than an indicator of who the best player in the series was.

[Nahtanoj]

Kobe is the better athlete Tim is the better basketball player.

Kobe is a better Guard. Tim is a better Forward. There..

Don't know why this thread is even four pages.

[Muser]

Both are all time greats, instead of ing about who is better you should be happy you got to see two of the best players to ever play the game.

[Ghazi]

[Cane]

[doobs]

I'd rather have a first tier big than a first tier wing. ALWAYS.

Duncan is a first tier big, Gasol is a second tier big.

Kobe is a first tier wing, Ginobili is a second tier wing.

If all are in their prime . . . I take Duncan/Ginobili over Kobe/Gasol.

[dirk4mvp]

Kobe is a better Guard. Tim is a better Center. There..

Don't know why this thread is even four pages.

fixed, tbh.

[HarlemHeat37]

Some points..

-It's a toss-up IMO..you can make a convincing argument for both guys..the main thing Kobe has over Duncan now is the fact that he repeated, since Tim never did it..I would take Duncan by a slight margin right now, but Kobe has a much better chance of surpassing him for obvious reasons..

-The thing about Kobe's performances in the Finals isn't about how poorly he has performed IMO..Duncan has had some sub-par Finals, so has Jordan, so has pretty much every legendary player..for me, it's about Kobe never having Finals performances that can match Jordan's 1st 3-peat, Shaq's 3-peat, Duncan in '99 and 2003, Bird/Magic and many others..he hasn't consistently played well..it also hurts him that the 2004 Finals was arguably the worst star performance of all-time..

-The hype and credit for Kobe is a lot different than a guy like Duncan..

Tim Duncan in 2005 was playing on 2 severely hurt ankles..this wasn't a "phantom" injury like others, this was an injury that forced him to miss the last few weeks of the season, and he re-aggravated it during the Seattle series, as everybody knows..the problem is that Duncan was heavily criticized for not playing up to his offensive standards during the Pistons series..the media was bashing him the entire series, up until he killed the 2nd half of game 7..

Kobe is pretty much the opposite..he was playing through minor injuries during the playoffs, yet he used it as an excuse, and so did the media, throughout the playoffs..the media doesn't mention his struggles..when he was scoring a lot and shooting poorly at times during this series, they mentioned his injuries and mentioned how he contributed in other ways like rebounding and defending..

Duncan is a legendary defensive player, one of the top 5-7 all-time IMO, but nobody mentioned it during this time..he never received any excuses from the media or the casual fan..he was bashed the entire series, even though he had even more potential excuses to work with than Kobe..

Kobe homers like to mention how Kobe is unfairly criticized, which is a valid argument at times, but they ignore all the advantages he receives from the media, which appeals to the casual fan..not showing his FG% is unheard of..


-I don't like using les as "#1 option", it's easier to say "best player", which isn't difficult to judge..

Shaq was clearly the best player in 2000, that one isn't arguable..Kobe was distant in every way..I would also say that Shaq was clearly the best player on the team in 2002 as well..

In 2002, Shaq led the Lakers in the playoffs in PER by a massive margin, he led Win Shares and Wins Produced, he had the best offensive rating AND defensive rating on the team, he was the best rebounder, and he was by far the most efficient player on the team..he also led usage %, so he got the most possessions as well..

2001 is the only year where you can say Kobe was the #1a best player on the team, still behind Shaq, but close..Kobe led that team in offensive rating, tied Shaq for Win Shares/Wins Produces, was nearly as efficient, he was the closer and the perimeter defender on the team..I would accept the argument that Kobe was #1a on that team..

There's absolutely no argument for 2000, and the argument isn't strong for 2002..

Another thing for the "best player" argument..if you're going to say Kobe was a 1a or whatever for these teams, then you can't say that Gasol currently isn't for this Lakers team..

Gasol had by far the highest WS/WP for the Lakers, by far the best offensive rating on the team, slightly trailed Odom for defensive rating and Kobe for PER, led the Lakers in rebounding, he was by far the most efficient player on the team, led the team in blocks..

As an overall player, Gasol arguably did as much as Kobe did in 2001 and 2002, you could certainly make an argument for it..if you lowered Kobe's touches and increased Pau's, the numbers would be a lot closer, so Pau wouldn't have such a big lead in these advanced stats, I have taken that into consideration..why is it that everybody quickly dismisses Pau's contribution to this year's Laker team, but they're quick to prop up Kobe's contributions to the 3-peat teams?..

[cobbler]

It's a toss-up IMO so let me give you a whole page disparaging Kobe!



The OBSESSION cont...

[Thomas82]

Some points..

-It's a toss-up IMO..you can make a convincing argument for both guys..the main thing Kobe has over Duncan now is the fact that he repeated, since Tim never did it..I would take Duncan by a slight margin right now, but Kobe has a much better chance of surpassing him for obvious reasons..

-The thing about Kobe's performances in the Finals isn't about how poorly he has performed IMO..Duncan has had some sub-par Finals, so has Jordan, so has pretty much every legendary player..for me, it's about Kobe never having Finals performances that can match Jordan's 1st 3-peat, Shaq's 3-peat, Duncan in '99 and 2003, Bird/Magic and many others..he hasn't consistently played well..it also hurts him that the 2004 Finals was arguably the worst star performance of all-time..

-The hype and credit for Kobe is a lot different than a guy like Duncan..

Tim Duncan in 2005 was playing on 2 severely hurt ankles..this wasn't a "phantom" injury like others, this was an injury that forced him to miss the last few weeks of the season, and he re-aggravated it during the Seattle series, as everybody knows..the problem is that Duncan was heavily criticized for not playing up to his offensive standards during the Pistons series..the media was bashing him the entire series, up until he killed the 2nd half of game 7..

Kobe is pretty much the opposite..he was playing through minor injuries during the playoffs, yet he used it as an excuse, and so did the media, throughout the playoffs..the media doesn't mention his struggles..when he was scoring a lot and shooting poorly at times during this series, they mentioned his injuries and mentioned how he contributed in other ways like rebounding and defending..

Duncan is a legendary defensive player, one of the top 5-7 all-time IMO, but nobody mentioned it during this time..he never received any excuses from the media or the casual fan..he was bashed the entire series, even though he had even more potential excuses to work with than Kobe..

Kobe homers like to mention how Kobe is unfairly criticized, which is a valid argument at times, but they ignore all the advantages he receives from the media, which appeals to the casual fan..not showing his FG% is unheard of..


-I don't like using les as "#1 option", it's easier to say "best player", which isn't difficult to judge..

Shaq was clearly the best player in 2000, that one isn't arguable..Kobe was distant in every way..I would also say that Shaq was clearly the best player on the team in 2002 as well..

In 2002, Shaq led the Lakers in the playoffs in PER by a massive margin, he led Win Shares and Wins Produced, he had the best offensive rating AND defensive rating on the team, he was the best rebounder, and he was by far the most efficient player on the team..he also led usage %, so he got the most possessions as well..

2001 is the only year where you can say Kobe was the #1a best player on the team, still behind Shaq, but close..Kobe led that team in offensive rating, tied Shaq for Win Shares/Wins Produces, was nearly as efficient, he was the closer and the perimeter defender on the team..I would accept the argument that Kobe was #1a on that team..

There's absolutely no argument for 2000, and the argument isn't strong for 2002..

Another thing for the "best player" argument..if you're going to say Kobe was a 1a or whatever for these teams, then you can't say that Gasol currently isn't for this Lakers team..

Gasol had by far the highest WS/WP for the Lakers, by far the best offensive rating on the team, slightly trailed Odom for defensive rating and Kobe for PER, led the Lakers in rebounding, he was by far the most efficient player on the team, led the team in blocks..

As an overall player, Gasol arguably did as much as Kobe did in 2001 and 2002, you could certainly make an argument for it..if you lowered Kobe's touches and increased Pau's, the numbers would be a lot closer, so Pau wouldn't have such a big lead in these advanced stats, I have taken that into consideration..why is it that everybody quickly dismisses Pau's contribution to this year's Laker team, but they're quick to prop up Kobe's contributions to the 3-peat teams?..

[Blackjack]

If winning an NBA championship is like beating the original Contra, having that Shaq on your team is like having the up up down down etc. cheat code.

up-up-down-down-left-right-left-right-B-A-Select-Start

Contra FTW!!!

[Blackjack]

I didn't notice the fourth page.



But, still . . .

[HarlemHeat37]

It's a toss-up IMO so let me give you a whole page disparaging Kobe!



The OBSESSION cont...

Where did I disparage Kobe?..I didn't say anything bad about him..I said he gets more hype from the media than Duncan, which is a fact, and I said he was the 2nd best player on the 3-peat teams, with 2001 being a 1a situation, which is pretty much a fact..

Why is it that Kobe fans believe that somebody is insulting him when they don't bow down to him?..

I was responding to arguments that were already brought up in the thread..I know you're an old racist man, so you have trouble keeping up, but try to keep pace with the rest of us please..

It's a thread ABOUT Kobe that I didn't make, so please stop with your obsession over me..

[namlook]

I'd rather have a first tier big than a first tier wing. ALWAYS.

Duncan is a first tier big, Gasol is a second tier big.

Kobe is a first tier wing, Ginobili is a second tier wing.

If all are in their prime . . . I take Duncan/Ginobili over Kobe/Gasol.

No. Kobe/Gasol were able to repeat when Kobe was past his athletic prime. Duncan was never able to repeat even when he and Manu were in their prime.

[HarlemHeat37]

Duncan only had a "prime" Manu for 3 years IMO, and they won les together for 2 of those 3, just like Kobe/Gasol won 2 out of 3 years..

[cobbler]

queue the "I don't play for the Spurs" diatribe...

[HarlemHeat37]

lol @ changing his posting style out of fear of getting banned again..
lol @ Pakistan losing to India in the Asia Cup..

[Veterinarian]

Didn't Duncan just sweep all the player of decade lists like a year ago? Kobe came in 3rd or 4th on several of them tbh.

[mavsfan1000]

Kobe 5 rings Duncan 4. Could be 6 next year for Kobe while Duncan looks finished.

[Sisk]

I think you can argue for either.

Duncan's 3 finals mvp+4 les as number 1 guy are very impressive, just as his all-NBA teams. Great defender for most of his career(discounting the last couple of years, maybe), I think he really deserved at least 1 DPOY.

That being said, Kobe seems to have a couple of mvp caliber years left in him, while duncan is pretty much winding down. That gives kobe some time to build on his legacy.

Pretty spot on tbh