Bulls/Knicks = Guts. Cavs = Loyalty. Heat = Gutlessness

[JamStone]

I am disappointed that LeBron has chosen the Shaquille O'Neal route (basketball mercenary/independent contractor) over the Jordan/Kobe/Duncan/Hakeem route. His right and decision of course, but I think Shaq is a major career underachiever (3 chips as a #1 guy, 1 as a #2 guy is way underachieving for his talent), and part of that is his mercenary mentality, his willingness to cut and run when things don't go his way, etc. I'm not saying we're going to look back at LeBron in the same way because his career hasn't entirely played out yet, but I thought LeBron was better than that.

I agree in a way.

The criticisms just change whatever decision he would have made. Stay in Cleveland and while he may be loyal, he doesn't care about winning and he just wanted the maximum amount of guaranteed dollars. Go to New York or New Jersey, and he's more concerned with his brand, living in the New York spotlight, and becoming a billionaire than he is about winning championships.

I guess if he chose Chicago, he might have taken the least amount of heat because he actually takes on the legend of Michael Jordan and he doesn't go there for necessarily fame or money. But he still catches similar if not the same heat from Dan Gilbert and Cleveland.

I guess my point is that it didn't really matter where he went. There were going to be plenty of people ready to crucify him no matter what, for disloyalty or selfishness or whatever. He made a choice based on what he felt was the best situation to win and win for a long time. I guess that's the main thing I look at.

And I don't know about the Shaq comparison. Shaq's reputation plays out more after Miami, then Phoenix. If you just look at leaving Orlando for the Lakers, I probably wouldn't have considered him at that time how you paint him right now.

[monosylab1k]

this thread = the heat are going to dominate everyone now and I'm too asshurt over the fact that 3 dominant players in their prime would take less money to join forces and make a great team, so instead I'll just bash Lebron over pointless bull instead of facing the facts and watching how the season pans out

whatever, we all get that you're in line to give LeBron a slurping. Fine.

Purely as a Mavs fan, this move doesn't upset you? That Cuban/Dirk can work their ass off for a decade to put a winning product out there on the court and do everything in their power to win a le, only to see a weak team with a fairweather fanbase win the free agent lottery like this? They can trade away basically all but one of their assets, do nothing to develop their team, and then suddenly become a dynasty out of pure bull luck.

[Kevin Durant 35]

LOL butthurt Mavs fan

[Findog]

I agree in a way.

The criticisms just change whatever decision he would have made. Stay in Cleveland and while he may be loyal, he doesn't care about winning and he just wanted the maximum amount of guaranteed dollars. Go to New York or New Jersey, and he's more concerned with his brand, living in the New York spotlight, and becoming a billionaire than he is about winning championships.

I guess if he chose Chicago, he might have taken the least amount of heat because he actually takes on the legend of Michael Jordan and he doesn't go there for necessarily fame or money. But he still catches similar if not the same heat from Dan Gilbert and Cleveland.

I guess my point is that it didn't really matter where he went. There were going to be plenty of people ready to crucify him no matter what, for disloyalty or selfishness or whatever. He made a choice based on what he felt was the best situation to win and win for a long time. I guess that's the main thing I look at.

And I don't know about the Shaq comparison. Shaq's reputation plays out more after Miami, then Phoenix. If you just look at leaving Orlando for the Lakers, I probably wouldn't have considered him at that time how you paint him right now.

I wouldn't have criticized him for resigning with Cleveland. If he didn't want to be stuck there till he 32, he could've signed a three-year extension that would've taken him to 28. I understand not wanting to be stuck there and potentially duplicating KG's career arc, but I wouldn't have blamed him at all or said he "wasn't about winning" if stayed with the Cavs. We're not talking about some 43-39 team that had trouble making the playoffs. The Cavs lost to the conference champ the last two years. They were kinda like Dirk and the Mavs: they gave him a good, but not great, supporting cast.

[Cry Havoc]

Garnett stuck with the Wolves until the tail end of his prime when it was obvious they couldn't realistically get him the supporting cast he needed. Dirk signed his extension at 31 years old before the creation of the Super Team down in Miami. There was...hope.

Do you know how exceedingly rare that is? Do you know how infrequently the pieces come together for an aging player already in his 30s to go a team with two other legitimate superstars to contend for a le?

I'll put it to you this way... even WITH Ray Allen and Paul Pierce... the Celtics probably don't win a le unless Rondo begins playing like a very solid PG... averaging 6.5 assists+ throughout the playoffs.

Before Allen went to Boston, the chances for KG to grab a le were slim to none. Even WITH the acquisition of all the talent that Boston has, Garnett is probably going to finish his career with a single ring. Maybe two by completely riding someone else's team as he ages. Do you think LeBron could win a single le in Cleveland and not be criticized for it? One championship is simply not enough for a player of his caliber. He wants multiple les, and probably wouldn't settle for less than 3-4 at this point in his career.

Look at Dirk. He's probably never going to come close to a ring again. There is just too much consolidated talent around the league now, even though the Mavs have one of the best rosters (on paper) in the NBA. His window was open for maybe three years and now seems to have slammed shut. Say what you want about him, and props for him being so loyal to the Mavs, but wouldn't you just kill to see a serious scoring threat alongside Dirk in a Mavs jersey? And doesn't some small part of you, as a fan of Dirk personally, want to see him get a ring, even if it's not in Dallas?

KG got lucky. Pure and simple. He happened to fall into the right situation with the right organization that could make the move to win a le. What moves do you see Cleveland making that's going to put them over the top before decision day? Should he wait another 7 years and then maybe only get someone marginally better than Mo Williams on his team?

Also, say what you will about Cuban's antics and shtick, some of his questionable roster moves, but what can never be disputed or doubted is the fact that he has moved heaven and earth to keep a 50+win team on the floor every year and provide a quality product for his fans. The stated goal of the organization is to win a championship, and before you start in, yes, going out in the first or second round every year is a bitter disappointment. But the point is that the Mavs try every SINGLE year. Same with the Spurs. I hate the Spurs, want them to fail, but have nothing but major RESPECT for that organization because they try every single year and don't jip their fans by putting a ty product out on the court.

The Mavs also got Jason Kidd, Caron Butler, Josh Howard. They've made moves that have given them championship potential. I give them all the props in the world for that, but the only reason the Cavs ever sniffed the ECF was because of LeBron, to say nothing of the Finals. The Spurs showed just how badly his supporting cast sucked in 07, and it was ugly.

Miami and New York essentially tanked the last three years, and Miami was amply rewarded for treating their fans to absolute dog the past three years. Lesson learned is that creating cap space for the horizon is more important than trying on a year to year basis.

There's also an adage that says patience is a virtue. Humping every player's leg in a mad dash to win the free agency battle every year is simply not the way to get it done. It burned the Spurs, it burned the Suns in the past, and it burned the Mavs. I mean, come on, it's not like teams didn't know ahead of time that this was going to be the largest free agent offseason in the history of the NBA.

As a Mavs fan, I'm not going to turn down Bron on my team. Just like you can't begrudge Heat fans, if they existed before yesterday, for the same. But as an NBA fan, I wanted him to stay with the Cavs. I don't think he was at the same point in his career like KG was in 2007 where he could legitimately throw up his hands and say "I was loyal and I tried. It's just not going to happen here."

I wanted him to stay with Cleveland as well. I'd love to see that city win a le. But they weren't putting the pieces together. If you hire a guy to build a house for you, and give him a specific amount of time to do it, and then you walk in halfway through that time and see that he doesn't even have the foundation complete or the support struts in place, you can either trust that he's going to get it done late, or find a new architect. I don't see how you could blame someone for doing either in the situation. The first could be construed as naive or trusting, and the second could be thought of as shrewd or overly demanding.

Imagine what people would say about LeBron in 10 years if he stayed with Cleveland and they never put a team together better than what they have right now. The 20/20 hindsight about not going to Miami now would be absolutely implacable. He would be a laughingstock, or at the very least, pitied.

[JamStone]

whatever, we all get that you're in line to give LeBron a slurping. Fine.

Purely as a Mavs fan, this move doesn't upset you? That Cuban/Dirk can work their ass off for a decade to put a winning product out there on the court and do everything in their power to win a le, only to see a weak team with a fairweather fanbase win the free agent lottery like this? They can trade away basically all but one of their assets, do nothing to develop their team, and then suddenly become a dynasty out of pure bull luck.

I think this is an overlooked thing in this whole LeBronapalooza.

Miami as a sports city and fanbase is one of the worst bandwagon, fairweather fanbase in all of sports. They don't care about sports. They care about the beach and fat latin asses. You ever see highlights of a Marlins baseball game when someone hits a homerun and there's literally 20,000 empty seats in the bleachers? A lot of people hate this move for a number of reasons. I don't think it's been said enough that Miami doesn't really deserve something like this. Even New York, a city full of hateful and ignorant sports fans, deserve this more than Miami. At least they care. Miami fans will now be coming out of the woodwork, thousands of Heat jerseys getting sold. Teams like Sacramento or Portland have fanbases way more loyal and way more deserving of a gift like this.

[stretch]

im mad because another team is going to be better than mine, so im gonna insult you because i have no other way of explaining

Purely as a Mavs fan, this move doesn't upset you? That Cuban/Dirk can work their ass off for a decade to put a winning product out there on the court and do everything in their power to win a le, only to see a weak team with a fairweather fanbase win the free agent lottery like this? They can trade away basically all but one of their assets, do nothing to develop their team, and then suddenly become a dynasty out of pure bull luck.

brah, it happens. just like Chicago got lucky to draft Michael Jordan, and prevent a load of great players and organizations who spend time putting together good teams, hours trying to improve their game and be the best they can be, only to get blocked by Jordan. or all the teams in the 80's that couldnt get past LA or Boston, because they were so stacked?

as a Mavs fan, this shouldn't bother you nearly as much as it is. because this was a legit signing. its not like the finals where Stern and the refs did all they could to prevent the Mavs from winning. this was completely legit, completely fair. I have no problem with this whatsoever.

if it were the Mavs winning this FA lottery, you wouldn't be complaining like a girl over it all. you would be happy as . so just because someone else gets fortunate and won, that doesnt make it wrong.

[Cry Havoc]

I think this is an overlooked thing in this whole LeBronapalooza.

Miami as a sports city and fanbase is one of the worst bandwagon, fairweather fanbase in all of sports. They don't care about sports. They care about the beach and fat latin asses. You ever see highlights of a Marlins baseball game when someone hits a homerun and there's literally 20,000 empty seats in the bleachers? A lot of people hate this move for a number of reasons. I don't think it's been said enough that Miami doesn't really deserve something like this. Even New York, a city full of hateful and ignorant sports fans, deserve this more than Miami. At least they care. Miami fans will now be coming out of the woodwork, thousands of Heat jerseys getting sold. Teams like Sacramento or Portland have fanbases way more loyal and way more deserving of a gift like this.

Ah, the sad reality of small market vs. large market. Apparently there's no replacement for glitz, glamour, and sand.

[stretch]

and for the record, yes it is frustrating that this happened, but at the same time, i'm not going to just hate on the team and the players over it, for no reason, and find ways to discredit them, just because they look like they are going to dominate for the next several years. just gotta hope that the Mavs find their own stroke of luck, have a good year, and maybe find a way to win it all. theres nothing else to do. im not going to waste my time whining and discrediting Bron and everyone like you guys are.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Also, say what you will about Cuban's antics and shtick, some of his questionable roster moves, but what can never be disputed or doubted is the fact that he has moved heaven and earth to keep a 50+win team on the floor every year and provide a quality product for his fans. The stated goal of the organization is to win a championship, and before you start in, yes, going out in the first or second round every year is a bitter disappointment. But the point is that the Mavs try every SINGLE year. Same with the Spurs. I hate the Spurs, want them to fail, but have nothing but major RESPECT for that organization because they try every single year and don't jip their fans by putting a ty product out on the court.

Well, there are two sides to this. Cuban is the exception, he has lost money every year keeping a quality product intact. In that instance, yeah, feel sorry for Cuban because he really has poured everything he could into making Dallas as good as possible.

In other cases though, I don't feel an ounce of pity for owners who keep a 50 win "quality product" on the court every year and stay content with selling tickets and losing in the 1st or 2nd round of the playoffs. The owners who are willing to endure 2-3 (and risk even more) years of ticket sales and a ty product while spending on a capable front office and coaching staff in order to try and make the team a contender again are more dedicated than owners who are willing to overpay a few players to maintain a 50 win product that sells tickets and can't contend.

[Findog]

I think this is an overlooked thing in this whole LeBronapalooza.

Miami as a sports city and fanbase is one of the worst bandwagon, fairweather fanbase in all of sports. They don't care about sports. They care about the beach and fat latin asses. You ever see highlights of a Marlins baseball game when someone hits a homerun and there's literally 20,000 empty seats in the bleachers? A lot of people hate this move for a number of reasons. I don't think it's been said enough that Miami doesn't really deserve something like this. Even New York, a city full of hateful and ignorant sports fans, deserve this more than Miami. At least they care. Miami fans will now be coming out of the woodwork, thousands of Heat jerseys getting sold. Teams like Sacramento or Portland have fanbases way more loyal and way more deserving of a gift like this.

What's funny about Miami is that nobody there gives a about basketball, hockey or baseball, and in the last 13 years, they've nabbed les in all three of those sports. Meanwhile, the only thing that city is passionate about, football, of both the college and pro variety, they've had quite the drought. Dolphins haven't won since the mid-seventies, and it's been at least the early to mid-nineties since the Hurricanes won, right?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

it's been at least the early to mid-nineties since the Hurricanes won, right?

Na, the 2001 'Canes were IMO the best college football team of all time.

[Findog]

Na, the 2001 'Canes were IMO the best college football team of all time.

Shows how close I pay attention to college football.

[Cry Havoc]

What's funny about Miami is that nobody there gives a about basketball, hockey or baseball, and in the last 13 years, they've nabbed les in all three of those sports. Meanwhile, the only thing that city is passionate about, football, of both the college and pro variety, they've had quite the drought. Dolphins haven't won since the mid-seventies, and it's been at least the early to mid-nineties since the Hurricanes won, right?

Rabid, demanding fanbases bring in money, but they're also a curse. Look at the Cubs.

[Findog]

Do you know how exceedingly rare that is? Do you know how infrequently the pieces come together for an aging player already in his 30s to go a team with two other legitimate superstars to contend for a le?

I'll put it to you this way... even WITH Ray Allen and Paul Pierce... the Celtics probably don't win a le unless Rondo begins playing like a very solid PG... averaging 6.5 assists+ throughout the playoffs.

My point was that Garnett didn't bail on the Wolves or ask out until it was absolutely clear that Minny wasn't gonna surround him with what he needed to win a chip. The fact that there wasn't an iron-clad guarantee that Boston was going to win it all is peripheral to that point. In LeBron's shoes, I wouldn't have bailed at 25 with a team that had won 60+ games and lost to the eventual Finals runner-up the last two seasons. If you look at the Cavs and LeBron, the only thing he was lacking was his #2 option, his Pau Gasol, and if he had been willing to commit to the Cavs long-term, it would've been easier to facilitate that acquisition.

Do you think LeBron could win a single le in Cleveland and not be criticized for it? One championship is simply not enough for a player of his caliber. He wants multiple les, and probably wouldn't settle for less than 3-4 at this point in his career.

It cheapens the impact of those multiple les if he has to be on a Super Team to do it.

but wouldn't you just kill to see a serious scoring threat alongside Dirk in a Mavs jersey? And doesn't some small part of you, as a fan of Dirk personally, want to see him get a ring, even if it's not in Dallas?

Yes to the first question, and I hope the Mavs keep trying to find that player. To the second question, I don't really care. If he wants to leave at some point to get a ring, I would wish him well and root for him when he doesn't play the Mavs, but he's gotten paid millions to play a game for a living. I don't think his life or mine will be incomplete if he retires ringless.

KG got lucky. Pure and simple

Not really. He had the ability to opt out of his contract in 2008 and the Wolves traded him partly to salvage eventually losing him, and partly to give him a better situation as payment for his loyalty to the franchise.

What moves do you see Cleveland making that's going to put them over the top before decision day? Should he wait another 7 years and then maybe only get someone marginally better than Mo Williams on his team?

If I had been LeBron, I would've signed a six-year deal back in 2007 that would've kept me a Cav until 2013 and the age of 28. Guys would've been more willing to come to Cleveland knowing LeBron was gonna be there for quite a while, and if it didn't work out at the age of 28 in 2013, then he could still leave with his prime intact.

There's also an adage that says patience is a virtue. Humping every player's leg in a mad dash to win the free agency battle every year is simply not the way to get it done. It burned the Spurs, it burned the Suns in the past, and it burned the Mavs. I mean, come on, it's not like teams didn't know ahead of time that this was going to be the largest free agent offseason in the history of the NBA.

The flip side to that is that, like you said, winning a le, is exceedingly rare. It's hard to resist the temptation of tinkering with your roster and "going for it" when you're winning 50+ games a year. People bag on the Mavs all the time because they've been a first-round exit for some time now, but with their foundation and core, they are a LOT closer to the top than the bottom, and it doesn't take much to alter their fortunes. If Cuban had decided to completely blow it up in 2008, he would've been roundly criticized for that decision and rightly so.

Imagine what people would say about LeBron in 10 years if he stayed with Cleveland and they never put a team together better than what they have right now.

LeBron would've eventually left Cleveland like KG did if he got to the tail end of his prime without a ring. Number of rings is not always the best way of judging whether this player is better than that player, etc.

[JoeTait75]

Ah, the sad reality of small market vs. large market. Apparently there's no replacement for glitz, glamour, and sand.

Thing is, Miami isn't even that big of a market. If it's larger than Cleveland it isn't by much.