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  1. #51
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    On double checking it didn't pass till 2002.

  2. #52
    Believe. Parker2112's Avatar
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    If you don't want flouride, just buy bottled water or boil your water.

    Have you ever noticed how many people have rotted out teeth that are in areas without fluoridated water? Yes, fluorine is toxic, but like anything, it depends on the level. Your conspiracy theory of them getting rid of toxic waste that way is so utterly ridiculous. But then... I've learned not to expect better from you already.

    Food for thought. Some natural water supplies have more naturally occurring fluoride than thought to be healthy, so it is partially removed, rather than added..
    As I was discussing with Chump, there is a huge difference in the toxicity of sodium flouride and naturally occuring calcium flouride.

    Actually, as for the "conspiracy theory," I spent a few years in undergrad putting myself through with a wastewater treatment plant. I know folks WC. And they happened to confirm, this morning, where they get their flouride. And its not so much conspiracy as FACT. At least in the town I used to work in.

    Production and principal reactions
    H2SiF6 is mainly produced as a by-product from the production of phosphoric acid from apa e and fluorapa e. In the U.S. about 85% of fluorspar is used to produce hydrofluorosilic acid.[3] The phosphoric and hydrofluoric acids are liberated from the mineral by the action of sulfuric acid. Some of the HF in turn reacts with silicate minerals, which are an unavoidable cons uent of the mineral feedstock, to give silicon tetrafluoride. Thus formed, the silicon tetrafluoride reacts further with HF. The net process can be described as:[4]
    SiO2 + 6 HF → H2SiF6 + 2 H2O Hexafluorosilicic acid can also be produced by treating silicon tetrafluoride and hydrofluoric acid.
    Neutralization of solutions of hexafluorosilicic acid with alkali metal bases produces the corresponding alkali metal fluorosilicate salts:
    H2SiF6 + 2 NaOH → Na2SiF6 + 2 H2O The resulting salt Na2SiF6 is mainly used in water fluoridation. Related ammonium and barium salts are produced similarly for other applications. With excess base, the hexafluorosilicate undergoes hydrolysis, so the neutralization of the hexafluorosilicic acid must guard against this easy hydrolysis reaction:
    Na2SiF6 + 4 NaOH → 6 NaF + SiO2 + 2 H2O [edit] Uses

    Hexafluorosilic acid is the feedstock for "virtually all organic and inorganic fluorine-bearing chemicals".[3] The majority of the hexafluorosilicic acid is converted to aluminium fluoride and cryolite.[4] These materials are central to the conversion of aluminium ore into aluminium metal.

  3. #53
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    On double checking it didn't pass till 2002.
    Yeah, I think that was the same year Salt Lake started adding it too. Maybe '03.
    Have you ever noticed how many people have rotted out teeth that are in areas without fluoridated water?
    For the record, I've only had one cavity in my life and that came after I started drinking fluoride in my water. I'm not going to claim anecdote as proof, but if a person brushes their teeth, flosses and uses mouthwash, there is absolutely no need for them to ingest extra fluoride. If people can't do those things, then let their teeth rot out they skulls. Nobody should have to drink topical chemicals because other people don't brush their teeth.

  4. #54
    Believe. Parker2112's Avatar
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    Actually I dont buy unless Im sold. When something like this peaks my interest, I like to get a broad take on it. So I post it here. I understand the criticism will come, and I understand that being called names is par for the course when you cite an Alex Jones story. But I'm glad I got the input that I did here.

    CC helped me understand that even though the public wouldnt go for it, it was continually pushed on San Antonio until they relented. Interesting. Whos doing the pushing? And without public support, why?

  5. #55
    Believe. Parker2112's Avatar
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    On double checking it didn't pass till 2002.
    remind me when Toyota came to town?

  6. #56
    Old fogey Bender's Avatar
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    Eventually, I'm going to install an under the sink filter or buy a water cooler and sign up for home delivery of 5 gallon containers.
    about 10 years ago I had Culligan install one of those reverse osmosis filtration systems under my sink. I love it for drinking water, making coffee, tea, ice cubes, etc.

    I think it removes most of the flouride in the water.

  7. #57
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Boiling water doesn't get rid of fluoride. FYI.
    You sure of that?

  8. #58
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  9. #59
    Old fogey Bender's Avatar
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    You sure of that?
    it isn't some kind of bacteria... that can be killed by boiling

    edit: oops too slow

  10. #60
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Actually, as for the "conspiracy theory," I spent a few years in undergrad putting myself through with a wastewater treatment plant. I know folks WC. And they happened to confirm, this morning, where they get their flouride. And its not so much conspiracy as FACT. At least in the town I used to work in.
    Hexafluorosilic acid is the feedstock for "virtually all organic and inorganic fluorine-bearing chemicals".[3] The majority of the hexafluorosilicic acid is converted to aluminium fluoride and cryolite.[4] These materials are central to the conversion of aluminium ore into aluminium metal.
    Waste water is not used generally as drinking water. Yes, the aluminum industry used fluorides to purify the aluminum, and the cryolite to reduce the required temperature of the bauxite for electrolysis. I worked in that industry in the 70's. I know some things have changes, but they still use that mineral to reduce power requirements. It is Sodium Fluoride that is used in drinking water, and if another form is used, then yes. Red flags should be shot up.

    I have no compelling need to have sodium fluoride in the water. I just don't see it as a threat either.

  11. #61
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    As soon as I posted, I realized that likely was the case, it is a salt rather than a gas. If it was in gas form, boiling would remove it.

  12. #62
    Get Refuel! FromWayDowntown's Avatar
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    in Dr. Strangelove, we learned that flouridation was a commie plot.
    It's funny, when I saw this thread le, I immediately thought of Colonel Jack D. Ripper and this exchange:

    General Jack D. Ripper: Mandrake, do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk... ice cream. Ice cream, Mandrake, children's ice cream.

    Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: Lord, Jack.

    General Jack D. Ripper: You know when fluoridation first began?

    Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: I... no, no. I don't, Jack.

    General Jack D. Ripper: Nineteen hundred and forty-six. Nineteen forty-six, Mandrake. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works.

    Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: Uh, Jack, Jack, listen, tell me, tell me, Jack. When did you first... become... well, develop this theory?

    General Jack D. Ripper: Well, I, uh... I... I... first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the physical act of love.

    Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: Hmm.

    General Jack D. Ripper: Yes, a uh, a profound sense of fatigue... a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily I... I was able to interpret these feelings correctly. Loss of essence.

    Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: Hmm.

    General Jack D. Ripper: I can assure you it has not recurred, Mandrake. Women uh... women sense my power and they seek the life essence. I, uh... I do not avoid women, Mandrake.

    Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: No.

    General Jack D. Ripper
    : But I... I do deny them my essence.

  13. #63
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    [Floride is really really bad for you and part of a secret government/sinister plot]


    I went a round with my brothers' mother in law about this and looked it up.

    Best I can tell there is little to no hard scientific proof that the floride in drinking water has any effect on humans other than a few sensitive individuals, or people who end up exposing themselves to concentrations far higher than that in the water.

    I have a natural inclination to be skeptical about this stuff, especially when used as de facto evidence of some conspiracy. "it makes ya docile" quoth my brothers' mother in law.

    Anything in large amounts, including water itself, can be harmful.

    Quite frankly, I think there are plenty of other nasty chemicals out there in our modern environment to be concerned about, and we have a lot more data to support concerns about those.

    My experience with conspiracy theories leads me to believe that they almost always tend to have some root in pseudo-science or bad science, which is why they take root. There are a lot of scientifically illiterate people out there to whom science-y sounding things take on unwarranted credibility.

    I have yet to read Parker's research into this, but my own does not lead me to be optimistic that they will pan out to be anything that would approach sufficient to change the way we drink our water.

    If it is really bad, then stop it. I would welcome a solid study on whether it is beneficial in the first place.

  14. #64
    Old fogey Bender's Avatar
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    20 years from now there will be something bad come up about flouride in the water, and it will be like "oops". Just like how the gov't and health agencies were begging people to use sunscreen in the sun for the past 30 years, and now there is all that news about how 4 out of 5 sunscreens cause MORE skin cancer.

  15. #65
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    As far as RG's take goes:

    It's not about the science for me (although I admit to being leery of its supposed benefits, solely on anecdote). Its about the precedent of being forcibly (more or less) medicated. Fluoride could be perfectly harmless, even beneficial, but it shouldn't be in our drinking water. We should have a choice as to whether we want to ingest something, be it beneficial or not. Especially if that something is chemical or medicinal. Especially if that something is in water, the substance that pervades literally every cell of our bodies.

    And I suppose the obligatory free market argument can be made; it can be pointed out that there are options for not drinking fluoride. But with that in every municipal water system and thereby in all our prepared food products and in all of our crops, in all of our millions of miles of pipes, in all of our shower heads, I think we can all agree that it's harder to make a free market choice than it would be if our water was available in greater quan ies through private sources, rather than municipal.

  16. #66
    Believe. Parker2112's Avatar
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    Waste water is not used generally as drinking water. Yes, the aluminum industry used fluorides to purify the aluminum, and the cryolite to reduce the required temperature of the bauxite for electrolysis. I worked in that industry in the 70's. I know some things have changes, but they still use that mineral to reduce power requirements. It is Sodium Fluoride that is used in drinking water, and if another form is used, then yes. Red flags should be shot up.

    I have no compelling need to have sodium fluoride in the water. I just don't see it as a threat either.
    My only association with drinking water is that I know guys that worked at the water plant...we all worked for the same small municipality. and this morning, one of them told me that they add Hydroflouracilic acid to the water there. When I looked it up, I found that info I posted earlier.

  17. #67
    Retired Ray xrayzebra's Avatar
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    Isn't the groundwater of most of the western US and the much of country of India (among other places worldwide) naturally fluoridated to higher levels than recommended for dental health?

    Shouldn't cancer levels be measurably higher in these areas that use that water for drinking?

    Or is it just different fluoride?
    then why do you want it in your toothpaste. Not that I mind, as a
    matter of fact, hopefully you brush several times a day.......

    I am just so happy the our government worries about all these really
    essential things, like smoking, getting too fat, too much salt, the bad
    fats people cook with, seat belts, air bags (how does that compute with
    politicians) declarations about laws other governments pass, people
    in our country illegally (Oops, forgot, they don't enforce that law).

    It is so nice we have our government to tell us how to live our lives.

    Did you buckle up today?

  18. #68
    Believe. Parker2112's Avatar
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    I went a round with my brothers' mother in law about this and looked it up.

    Best I can tell there is little to no hard scientific proof that the floride in drinking water has any effect on humans other than a few sensitive individuals, or people who end up exposing themselves to concentrations far higher than that in the water.

    I have a natural inclination to be skeptical about this stuff, especially when used as de facto evidence of some conspiracy. "it makes ya docile" quoth my brothers' mother in law.

    Anything in large amounts, including water itself, can be harmful.

    Quite frankly, I think there are plenty of other nasty chemicals out there in our modern environment to be concerned about, and we have a lot more data to support concerns about those.

    My experience with conspiracy theories leads me to believe that they almost always tend to have some root in pseudo-science or bad science, which is why they take root. There are a lot of scientifically illiterate people out there to whom science-y sounding things take on unwarranted credibility.

    I have yet to read Parker's research into this, but my own does not lead me to be optimistic that they will pan out to be anything that would approach sufficient to change the way we drink our water.

    If it is really bad, then stop it. I would welcome a solid study on whether it is beneficial in the first place.
    The question should not be why we should change the way we drink our water. The question should be: why do we change it to begin with? when you frame it that way, things are a little cloudier.

  19. #69
    Believe. Parker2112's Avatar
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    as far as rg's take goes:

    It's not about the science for me (although i admit to being leery of its supposed benefits, solely on anecdote). Its about the precedent of being forcibly (more or less) medicated. Fluoride could be perfectly harmless, even beneficial, but it shouldn't be in our drinking water. We should have a choice as to whether we want to ingest something, be it beneficial or not. Especially if that something is chemical or medicinal. Especially if that something is in water, the substance that pervades literally every cell of our bodies.

    And i suppose the obligatory free market argument can be made; it can be pointed out that there are options for not drinking fluoride. But with that in every municipal water system and thereby in all our prepared food products and in all of our crops, in all of our millions of miles of pipes, in all of our shower heads, i think we can all agree that it's harder to make a free market choice than it would be if our water was available in greater quan ies through private sources, rather than municipal.
    this.

  20. #70
    JekkaIsGoddess Jekka's Avatar
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    Kids that get fluorosis as badly as in the posted photos are probably kids whose parents don't care (or don't know) if they swallow their toothpaste all the damn time. I have very mild fluorosis from who knows what, and it is only noticeable to dental professionals who have told me that I'm pretty much cavity immune.

    I don't really care if there's fluoride in the water or not - based on where I now live and work, there are several more things that can get into the water supply that are worse. For instance, I found out this week that I work less than a mile away from a superfund site where a dry cleaner was putting TCE and other chemicals that are known carcinogens into the groundwater for more than 20 years. THAT concerns me. Fluoride, not so much.
    20 years from now there will be something bad come up about flouride in the water, and it will be like "oops". Just like how the gov't and health agencies were begging people to use sunscreen in the sun for the past 30 years, and now there is all that news about how 4 out of 5 sunscreens cause MORE skin cancer.
    Source?

  21. #71
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    My only association with drinking water is that I know guys that worked at the water plant...we all worked for the same small municipality. and this morning, one of them told me that they add Hydroflouracilic acid to the water there. When I looked it up, I found that info I posted earlier.
    That is a nasty form to add. They use to only use Sodium Fluoride, to my knowledge. This is unfortunate news that they would use a form that can generate Hydrofluoric Acid.

    Yes, there is cause for alarm, using this form.

  22. #72
    Old fogey Bender's Avatar
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    Source?
    about the sunscreen comment?

    it's a controversy, so half the 'experts' say yes it does, the other half say it doesn't.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/...n6521447.shtml

  23. #73
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    But wait! That same group says Austin has the 7th best water supply in the country --


    -- and it has FLUORIDE!


    What are we supposed to believe?

  24. #74
    Believe. Parker2112's Avatar
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    But wait! That same group says Austin has the 7th best water supply in the country --


    -- and it has FLUORIDE!


    What are we supposed to believe?
    I'm sure they don't consider flouride in any form a contaminant, thus the water can be deemed very safe... notwithstanding the fact that 12 federal and professional employee unions have lobbied for EPA to end flouridation nationwide.

  25. #75
    Believe. Parker2112's Avatar
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    What are we supposed to believe?
    "Go back to sleep chump!"

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