Only 2 people sign up for Obamacare in New Jersey

[Wild Cobra]

I keep hearing employer-provided insurance cost for a family of 4 is about $13K/year, with about 25% paid for by the employee after tax. This is subsidized by making the play a tax-deductible business expense.

I don't know the percentage of my copay, but my biweekly deduction is $63.17. I have Blue Cross, for me and my youngest daughter. My employer probably pays about 90%, maybe more.

That 25%, co-pays, and deductibles are all set to rise.

Where you come up with 25% anyway? Different plans are different. I have no deductible, but a $25 copay.

We'd "fix" US health care gouging real damn fast if families had to pay $14K/year out of their own pockets and after-tax. The public option would roll out immediately.

That is one reason why health care is so expensive. Individuals don't care how much it costs when it's not directly from their pocket. The best way to do things would be having most people pay for routine things, and only have health care for big things. this would make for a better Supply and Demand driven pricing.

[Wild Cobra]

Wait..wasn't that what the 25,000 turned out for last week? That huge crown that the police had to hold back?...Oh yeah. That was for free rent. This is insurance they actually have to pay for. Like...with real money. Right.

The government sure likes holding peoples lives in limbo with that section 8 stuff, don't they?

[Wild Cobra]

Sounds unsustainable cheap

Agreed.

I think the democrats are trying to make this nation fail while they are still in office so they can have riots, and declare Martial Law, and rule firmly.

[Yonivore]

Agreed.

I think the democrats are trying to make this nation fail while they are still in office so they can have riots, and declare Martial Law, and rule firmly.

They'll never make it, I think the sleeping giant is awake now. But, expect much thrashing about before the November mid-terms.

[LnGrrrR]

Agreed.

I think the democrats are trying to make this nation fail while they are still in office so they can have riots, and declare Martial Law, and rule firmly.

A bit paranoid, are we?

Tell me, if they declared martial law, do you think every policeman/military personnel would follow that order?

Even if your doomsday scenario planned out and he ins uted it, Americans have too many guns for that to work.

[Wild Cobra]

A bit paranoid, are we?

Tell me, if they declared martial law, do you think every policeman/military personnel would follow that order?

Even if your doomsday scenario planned out and he ins uted it, Americans have too many guns for that to work.

I was overreacting, intentionally.

I simply don't know what else to say at times. Either the democrats are really stupid about the effect of their policies, or they are trying to destroy this nation. Can you say otherwise?

[ElNono]

I was overreacting, intentionally.

I simply don't know what else to say at times. Either the democrats are really stupid about the effect of their policies, or they are trying to destroy this nation. Can you say otherwise?

If you don't know what to say, maybe you should just shut up. You somehow managed to escalate one program in one state to 'destroying the nation'. That's why it's difficult to take your rants seriously anymore.

The most likely outcome is probably the program ending at some point when there's no way to finance it anymore.

[Wild Cobra]

The most likely outcome is probably the program ending at some point when there's no way to finance it anymore.

And at what detriment to the people now relying on it?

Should have never increased such spending as it is.

[ElNono]

And at what detriment to the people now relying on it?

It's an aid program, not a right. Whoever thinks otherwise is clearly wrong.

Should have never increased such spending as it is.

There's nothing wrong with helping people depending on their situation at any given time. I'm sure there's extraordinary spending now during the recession, as there was aid packages for part of the population affected by Katrina at the time.

Eventually the program will not be necessary anymore, will be absored by a different aid program or it just won't have enough funds assigned to it, and so people will have to look for aid somewhere else. Hopefully there won't be a recession with high unemployment then. It won't be the first time aid is cut or absorbed by another aid program.

[LnGrrrR]

I was overreacting, intentionally.

I simply don't know what else to say at times. Either the democrats are really stupid about the effect of their policies, or they are trying to destroy this nation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dichotomy

The logical fallacy of false dilemma (also called false dichotomy, the either-or fallacy) involves a situation in which only two alternatives are considered, when in fact there are other options.

You know WC, it doesn't look good on you when you ascribe such negative traits to Democrats. When boutons says all Republicans are money-hungry trying to stomp on the little people, does it look good?

Perhaps you should try to say that you think the Democrats ideas are poor, but be willing to think that maybe, just maybe, they may have good motives in mind but incorrect ways of achieving their stated goals.

If you were REALLY magnanimous, you might even admit that perhaps you don't know the best position on every issue, or give the Dems some credit. I doubt that though.

[DarrinS]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dichotomy



You know WC, it doesn't look good on you when you ascribe such negative traits to Democrats. When boutons says all Republicans are money-hungry trying to stomp on the little people, does it look good?

Perhaps you should try to say that you think the Democrats ideas are poor, but be willing to think that maybe, just maybe, they may have good motives in mind but incorrect ways of achieving their stated goals.

If you were REALLY magnanimous, you might even admit that perhaps you don't know the best position on every issue, or give the Dems some credit. I doubt that though.

I don't think progressives have sinister motives (unlike how the left views us EEEEVILLL conservatives), I just don't think their policies are practical and/or effective.

[Wild Cobra]

You know WC, it doesn't look good on you when you ascribe such negative traits to Democrats. When boutons says all Republicans are money-hungry trying to stomp on the little people, does it look good?

Boutons claims aside, you have somewhat a point. I ask you this...

Just how many democrats in DC are there that don't do very damaging things to our nation?

Perhaps you should try to say that you think the Democrats ideas are poor, but be willing to think that maybe, just maybe, they may have good motives in mind but incorrect ways of achieving their stated goals.

Well, they are stepping on the backs of others to achieve their noble goals. I guess for those who think others don't matter, that's OK.

If you were REALLY magnanimous, you might even admit that perhaps you don't know the best position on every issue, or give the Dems some credit. I doubt that though.

Your assessment of me is wrong. I don't know what's best, but I do see that this repeated path the democrats are taking is very damaging. I don't know the best thing to do, except to try to undo the things that have put us where we are. You can almost always trace our major problems to our government's actions. Republicans are to blame also, but Boutons goes insanely overboard with his blame. He just blames them for anything he can loosely relate things to.

[Winehole23]

Republicans are to blame also, but Boutons goes insanely overboard with his blame. He just blames them for anything he can loosely relate things to.

Someone we both know does exactly the same thing to the Dems.

[LnGrrrR]

Well, they are stepping on the backs of others to achieve their noble goals. I guess for those who think others don't matter, that's OK.

So when Republicans say we need to "liberate" other countries, are they doing it themselves, or using the military to do it? Apart from the military volunteering, there's not a great gulf of ethical difference. After all, people volunteer for the military with the general assumption that civilian leadership is doing what's best for them... if they started unnecessary wars, that would be a betrayal of that trust.

And yet, Republicans think those wars are necessary while Democrats do not. Funny how two sides can COMPLETELY disagree on something, while both claiming their viewpoint is absolutely valid.

Your assessment of me is wrong. I don't know what's best, but I do see that this repeated path the democrats are taking is very damaging. I don't know the best thing to do, except to try to undo the things that have put us where we are. You can almost always trace our major problems to our government's actions. Republicans are to blame also, but Boutons goes insanely overboard with his blame. He just blames them for anything he can loosely relate things to.

Perhaps it would be good to try to educate people on why you think it's wrong (as you've done in other threads) rather than resort to ad hominems like "lib s" etc etc. It may make you feel better, but do you think you're winning anyone who's neutral? And yes, of course Boutons does that. When's the last time he won anyone over to his side of thinking?

[Wild Cobra]

Someone we both know does exactly the same thing to the Dems.

I can at least direct a path of evidence.

[LnGrrrR]

I don't think progressives have sinister motives (unlike how the left views us EEEEVILLL conservatives), I just don't think their policies are practical and/or effective.

Fair enough, but that's why I aimed that comment at WC. I think you like to twist things around, but I think half your posts are to troll anyways.

[Wild Cobra]

Fair enough, but that's why I aimed that comment at WC. I think you like to twist things around, but I think half your posts are to troll anyways.

Can't I troll every now an then, or am I always taken serious?

[Winehole23]

I can at least direct a path of evidence.

You do it badly. You jumble the frames and cram it full of stuff you just make up

[ElNono]

I don't think progressives have sinister motives (unlike how the left views us EEEEVILLL conservatives), I just don't think their policies are practical and/or effective.

I think that's just another unfortunate generalization from your part.

I don't think the entire left sees conservatives as evil. Maybe the the most extreme left does (not really different than the extreme right towards the left).

Your average lefty probably completely disagrees with the core values of your average righty, but I really don't think they directly associate sinister motives with the disagreement.

It's unfortunate that the tone and message of the contemporary political campaigns don't really help to do away with such generalizations, and in a way, reinforce them. However, from my day to day experience, I don't think it's a fair or accurate representation of what really happens in society in general.

[Winehole23]

I don't think it's a fair or accurate representation of what really happens in society in general.

In fairness, DarrinS probably never intended to be fair.

[LnGrrrR]

Can't I troll every now an then, or am I always taken serious?

Well, that's the distinct risk you're taking when you troll, that you'll be taken seriously.

In fact, that's the whole point of a troll... to be taken seriously, to see how many people he can annoy for his own amusement. If you'll notice, when I say something sarcastic or snarky, it's either way over the top or out of character for me, or I put a smiley face or some other signifier that I'm not speaking plainly.