Rallies over mosque near ground zero get heated

[clambake]

how many synagogues and christian churches have a mosgue?

[George Gervin's Afro]

I think the opposition has to do with well-founded concerns this is not what you believe and their billing it to be.

Concerns and opinions don't take the place of facts.... prove it. Until you can prove it then there is no reason to not build the mosque there.

Add a Jewish Synogogue and a non-denominations Christian Church to the "Community Center" if you're really wanting to engage in "interfaith bridge-building." Acknowledge the grief cause by your co-religionists and make a concerted effort to address the concerns of 9-11 victims' families instead of playing the victim yourself, screaming intolerance, and calling the families Islamophobes.

Nice litmus test.. the grief is rooted in the fact that muslims perpetuated 9/11... and now some other muslims want a community center that happens to be 2 blocks from ground zero..

[TeyshaBlue]

Is it a group that represents an "overwhelming" majority of the victims families? But, even if, I would reconcile that by pointing to the AARP which, even though most of its members opposed the legislation, took a position in favor of Obamacare.


Yeah, denying them another Cordoba Mosque at the site of what radical Islam considers a great victory is a "win" for them.

Personally, I'd prefer to appeal to the billions of moderate, and sincere Muslims rather than the handful of insane extremeists.

[Yonivore]

Concerns and opinions don't take the place of facts.... prove it. Until you can prove it then there is no reason to not build the mosque there.

It's a matter of -- well, it was a matter of compassion until the Imam decided he would completely ignore the concerns and press forward, enlisting idiots like you to go to bat for them.

Nice litmus test.. the grief is rooted in the fact that muslims perpetuated 9/11... and now some other muslims want a community center that happens to be 2 blocks from ground zero..

You meant perpetrated.

When the Imam makes some gesture that shows he's considering the feelings of the victims of 9-11, I'll listen.

Again, it wasn't two blocks from ground zero. It was involved in the crime.

[Yonivore]

Personally, I'd prefer to appeal to the billions of moderate, and sincere Muslims rather than the handful of insane extremeists.

"billions of moderate, sincere Muslims."

Outside the United States, you won't run into many of that brand. And, I think inside the United States, there are many that would be less "moderate and sincere" if they thought they could get away with it.

In Washington State and the Detroit area, in particular, you see efforts to ins ute Sharia Law -- you know -- the kind that condones honor killings and such.

Billions.

[TeyshaBlue]

"billions of moderate, sincere Muslims."

Outside the United States, you won't run into many of that brand. And, I think inside the United States, there are many that would be less "moderate and sincere" if they thought they could get away with it.

In Washington State and the Detroit area, in particular, you see efforts to ins ute Sharia Law -- you know -- the kind that condones honor killings and such.

Billions.

You attribute lots of stuff to people you haven't met or experienced. Interesting. I have traveled extensively. I have dined in Muslim homes with clients. I have debated cultural relevancy, from a standpoint of profound ignorance (much like your position) no less, with adherants of Islam. I disagree, completely, with your characterization of Muslims both here and abroad.

[clambake]

yoni doesn't really care about religion. he didn't..........until you're talkling about a black man.

[George Gervin's Afro]

It's a matter of -- well, it was a matter of compassion until the Imam decided he would completely ignore the concerns and press forward, enlisting idiots like you to go to bat for them.

It's not up to anyone to justify the location of the building. I don't see this is a muslim exclusive issue.. while you do. if it was any other religion you wouldn't be here ing about it...

When the Imam makes some gesture that shows he's considering the feelings of the victims of 9-11, I'll listen.

He doesn't have to do anything of the sort. Your side keeps changing the reasons why you don't want it there..

Again, it wasn't two blocks from ground zero. It was involved in the crime

How far is the building from where WTC was?

[TeyshaBlue]

yoni doesn't really care about religion. he didn't..........until you're talkling about a black man.

Maybe that's my problem.....racial perspective. I mean, none of my clients were actually black Muslims.

[George Gervin's Afro]

You attribute lots of stuff to people you haven't met or experienced. Interesting. I have traveled extensively. I have dined in Muslim homes with clients. I have debated cultural relevancy, from a standpoint of profound ignorance (much like your position) no less, with adherants of Islam. I disagree, completely, with your characterization of Muslims both here and abroad.

he has the right wing blogosphere to inform him..

[George Gervin's Afro]

yoni doesn't really care about religion. he didn't..........until you're talkling about a black man.

a black man who is a christian (wink,wink)

[Yonivore]

It's not up to anyone to justify the location of the building. I don't see this is a muslim exclusive issue.. while you do. if it was any other religion you wouldn't be here ing about it...

That's not true. If Christians had flown planes into the World Trade Center, in the name of Jesus Christ, I would see where the victims' families my be peeved at the building of a Christian Church there.

Jewish Synogogue, ditto...

He doesn't have to do anything of the sort. Your side keeps changing the reasons why you don't want it there..

You're right but, if he wants me to listen to him, he does.

There are a mul ude of reasons not to build the mosque there...the principle one being it's insensitive to the victims of radical Islam who died there. To not acknowledge that just adds to the disgust.

How far is the building from where WTC was?

As the wheel assembly of a Boeing 747 flies, about 2 seconds.

[George Gervin's Afro]

That's not true. If Christians had flown planes into the World Trade Center, in the name of Jesus Christ, I would see where the victims' families my be peeved at the building of a Christian Church there.

Jewish Synogogue, ditto...


You're right but, if he wants me to listen to him, he does.

There are a mul ude of reasons not to build the mosque there...the principle one being it's insensitive to the victims of radical Islam who died there. To not acknowledge that just adds to the disgust.


As the wheel assembly of a Boeing 747 flies, about 2 seconds.

Since you never get out of there perverse ideology of the right wing blogosphere here's something to chew on:

If Muslims outside America “recognize in the American form of governance a genuine substantive workable expression and model of their centuries-old longing for the kingdom of heaven on earth,” he continues, “they can formulate their understanding of an Islamic state along these lines.”

[Yonivore]

You attribute lots of stuff to people you haven't met or experienced. Interesting. I have traveled extensively. I have dined in Muslim homes with clients. I have debated cultural relevancy, from a standpoint of profound ignorance (much like your position) no less, with adherants of Islam. I disagree, completely, with your characterization of Muslims both here and abroad.

Well, good for you. My family was host to two Muslim men for three years in the 70's. One radicalized and died in some Jihad a few years later. I'm still in contact with the other.

How do you address the Muslims that call this an act of fitna? Would you say they have a "profound ignorance" of their own culture?

Your side of the argument is the one interjecting hyperbole. Any opposition is immediately characterized as "Islamaphobia."

[Yonivore]

Since you never get out of there perverse ideology of the right wing blogosphere here's something to chew on:

So? Who said it and in what context and how much of the Muslim faith does he represent and, finally, does the speaker actually believe what he is saying?

[George Gervin's Afro]

So? Who said it and in what context and how much of the Muslim faith does he represent and, finally, does the speaker actually believe what he is saying?

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf

dumb ass...

[TeyshaBlue]

Well, good for you. My family was host to two Muslim men for three years in the 70's. One radicalized and died in some Jihad a few years later. I'm still in contact with the other.

How do you address the Muslims that call this an act of fitna? Would you say they have a "profound ignorance" of their own culture?

Your side of the argument is the one interjecting hyperbole. Any opposition is immediately characterized as "Islamaphobia."

I would sit down with those that consider this an act of fitna. BTW, my understanding of this term is that it has many, many levels of meaning often contextually dependent. I would have to understand at what level of fitna that this scenario fits. I can see some moderate and reflective Muslims reaching this viewpoint. I can't fault them for it. Doesn't necessarily mean I share the viewpoint. Again, since I don't know (and presumably, you don't either) the context of fitna, I can't really address the question realistically. I doubt you could either.

[clambake]

who killed thousands and thousands of innocent muslims after saying he talked to god?

you see, for yoni, this isn't about religion at all.

[Yonivore]

I would sit down with those that consider this an act of fitna.

Something Imam Rauf seems unwilling to do.

BTW, my understanding of this term is that it has many, many levels of meaning often contextually dependent. I would have to understand at what level of fitna that this scenario fits.

The Muslims claiming it is fitna put it in context for you in the article I linked earlier in this thread.

I can see some moderate and reflective Muslims reaching this viewpoint. I can't fault them for it. Doesn't necessarily mean I share the viewpoint.

But would you characterize their opposition as Islamaphobia? I would hope not. And, you recognizing this is a viewpoint that could be reached by moderate and reflective Muslims is more than the organizers and public proponents of the Ground Zero Mosque are willing to do.

Again, since I don't know (and presumably, you don't either) the context of fitna, I can't really address the question realistically. I doubt you could either.

Well, I know the context in which it was used by the Muslims in that article. Read for yourself.

[TeyshaBlue]

Something Imam Rauf seems unwilling to do.


The Muslims claiming it is fitna put it in context for you in the article I linked earlier in this thread.


But would you characterize their opposition as Islamaphobia? I would hope not. And, you recognizing this is a viewpoint that could be reached by moderate and reflective Muslims is more than the organizers and public proponents of the Ground Zero Mosque are willing to do.


Well, I know the context in which it was used by the Muslims in that article. Read for yourself.

Yeah, I've read that letter before. I understand and even sympathize with that viewpoint. I can see where it can make some uncomfortable. The Muslim community is big enough to generate many different viewpoints and that feeling of "cultural liability" ie...complicit by common root association, is not unique to them at all.
To these I would say that I understand their reluctance. However, since it seems to be practically inevitable that it will be built, how can you use it as an opportunity for bridging relationships?

[clambake]

However, since it seems to be practically inevitable that it will be built, how can you use it as an opportunity for bridging relationships?

he's not interested in that. he wants war...........of course without personal involvement.

[Blake]

Ran across this looking for something else. Make sure to hit the link for comments -- y'all should enjoy.

Pearl's father: Move mosque
Maggie Haberman - POLITICO

Judea Pearl, the father of slain journalist Daniel Pearl, says the proposed Islamic center near ground zero should be moved, the Jewish Telegraph agency reports.

“If I were [New York] Mayor Bloomberg I would reassert their right to build the mosque, but I would expend the same energy trying to convince them to put it somewhere else,” he said. “Public reaction tells us that it is not the right time, and that it will create further animosity and division in this country."

Contradicting one's self seems like a waste of energy.

How far away is considered appropriately far for these people?

3 blocks away?

outside of New York?

outside of the country?

[Yonivore]

Yeah, I've read that letter before. I understand and even sympathize with that viewpoint. I can see where it can make some uncomfortable. The Muslim community is big enough to generate many different viewpoints and that feeling of "cultural liability" ie...complicit by common root association, is not unique to them at all.

So, it's not Islamophobic to disagree with the placement of a mosque at Ground Zero? It's not a extreme position to hold?

To these I would say that I understand their reluctance. However, since it seems to be practically inevitable that it will be built,...

But, not completely inevitable and, until it is built, why not continue to voice your opposition?

...how can you use it as an opportunity for bridging relationships?

Seems like a bridge to cross when it's actually built. But, until the mosque is a reality, those that oppose it should continue to voice that opposition.

[TeyshaBlue]

So, it's not Islamophobic to disagree with the placement of a mosque at Ground Zero? It's not a extreme position to hold?

Honestly, Yoni. That's a ridiculous arguement. A Muslim Islamophobe? Have you lost your mind? A Muslim can oppose the placement of a mosque...but he's completely incapable of being an Islamophobe doing it. There's a mutal exclusion built in the definition of Islamophobe.

But, not completely inevitable and, until it is built, why not continue to voice your opposition?

For all intents and purposes, it's a done deal. If you want to continue to voice your opposition, knock yourself out. Use reasoned logic (not Muslim Islamophobes) to support your opposition and you'll dodge the Islamophobe label.

Seems like a bridge to cross when it's actually built. But, until the mosque is a reality, those that oppose it should continue to voice that opposition.

They/you have every right to do that. When the Mosque is completed, it's probably time to stop.

[ChumpDumper]

Yoni knew a Muslim once and therefore can judge every Muslim.

That's like concluding every American is a lying, stupid, ignorant Islamophobe after reading one of Yoni's posts.