Better Defender: Dennis Rodman or Tim Duncan

[ElNono]

I simply explained to FromWayDowntown the difference between an award/selection.

But you didn't explain it. You just said they're different.

Please explain the difference. Be specific.

[Phenomanul]

Debunking? Yet you have debunked nothing. The only thing you have provided to this debate thus far is worthless flawed stats and an off-topic rant on Bowen never winning DPOY.

Back to square one then:

-Defensive Rebounding = Rodman

Most statistics would prove this to be true. Even those accounting for pace.

-Man to man defense (most important in the post) = Rodman

So ummm... which objective metric was used to arrive at this rather subjective conclusion? Enlighten us.

-Team defense = Rodman by a hair

So ummm... which objective metric was used to arrive at this rather subjective conclusion? Enlighten us.

-Rodman has 2 DPOY awards to Duncan's 0.

The point that eluded you earlier was that DPOY awards don't represent the be all, end all metric of defensive criteria... because they are awarded by THE MEDIA...

-For those wondering, Rodman is also a 5 time champ trumping Duncan's 4 (or 3.5 depending on your source).

And this relates to the comparison of those players' defensive ap udes? How exactly? No agenda.... Really?

-Rodman has never NOT repeated

And this relates to the comparison of those players' defensive ap udes? How exactly? I could make the statement that Rodman never led his teams to championships... or garnered MVP awards or Finals MVP awards... but this argument is irrelevant to the comparison of Duncan's and Rodman's defensive impact.

-Rodman won 2 in a row for Detroit

And this relates to the comparison of those players' defensive ap udes? How exactly?

But just to be clear a guy by the name of Isaiah Thomas led his Pistons team to 2 in a row... Rodman played his role (nothing more, nothing less).

-Rodman won 3 in a row with the Bulls

And this relates to the comparison of those players' defensive ap udes? How exactly?

But just to be clear a guy by the name of Michael Jordan led his Bulls team to 3 in a row... Rodman played his role (nothing more, nothing less).

-Rodman was the much better athlete, Top 10 athlete to ever play the game.

As subjective a conclusion as this is... it's one that is likely backed by most NBA conosseiurs... Rodman did the most with the tools he was given, due largely to his athletic gifts...

-Debunk away OR at the very least, provide your own work and your own conclusion. Until then, you are dismissed sir. Cheers.

Troll.

tbonewalker's opening argument is complete bunk no matter the merit in the comparison...

[hitmanyr2k]

He's made it twice as a center (2008-09 and 2009-10) and 11 other times as a forward -- and 8 times as a First Team forward.

Even if you eliminate the 2 times he's been voted in at center, he's still #1 all-time in All-Defense team selections, tied with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (and Bobby Jones, if you count All-ABA selections).

Awards mean something or they don't. You choose.

Awards do mean something but you have to put them in context. You have to consider the eras these players were in. Rodman played in a MUCH tougher big man era where there was more compe ion for All-Defense teams. Duncan is currently in the worst defensive big man era ever at the moment and honestly the 2000's have been nothing special for defensive centers and PFs. Duncan could make All-Defense in his sleep in this era. His defense hasn't been anything special since 2007 but he's still a mainstay on the All-Defense team.

[tbonewalker]

All-NBA selections are honors that are comparable to any award.
Go look up the bio of any player that has been an All-NBA and show me it's not listed alongside any other awards.

Your FAIL is reaching epic proportions...

Wrong.

All-NBA teams are selections and not awards, in fact. You can argue this til you are blue in the face.

They call it the MVP 'award' for a reason. They call it the DPOY 'award' for a reason. They call it the Rookie of the Year 'award' for a reason. They call it the Coach of the Year 'award' for a reason.

They call it All-NBA 'selections' for a reason. There is no accompanying award.

[ElNono]

Kobe Bryant - 8 1st team all defense, 2 2nd team all defense
Bruce Bowen - 5 1st team all defense, 3 2nd team all defense

Do you believe Kobe Bryant was a better defender than Bruce Bowen?

Years in the league have to be taken into account. But I will also add that when Kobe is motivated, he can be an exceptional defender.

The biggest difference is consistency. Bowen did it night in and night out.

[hitmanyr2k]

Kobe Bryant - 8 1st team all defense, 2 2nd team all defense
Bruce Bowen - 5 1st team all defense, 3 2nd team all defense

Do you believe Kobe Bryant was a better defender than Bruce Bowen?

Which illustrates my point even further. Kobe will most likely pass Scottie Pippen this season in All-Defense selections when Kobe is not even in the same stratosphere as Pippen when it comes to effort, consistency and defensive impact on a game. Kobe is playing in a weak era for defensive guards and other than Wade he's really the only household name so he gets by on rep. The guy could put up Steve Nash-like defensive ratings and still make All-Defense first team.

[ElNono]

Wrong.

All-NBA teams are selections and not awards, in fact. You can argue this til you are blue in the face.

How are they different from awards? Please explain.

They call it the MVP 'award' for a reason. They call it the DPOY 'award' for a reason. They call it the Rookie of the Year 'award' for a reason. They call it the Coach of the Year 'award' for a reason.

What is that reason? They all start from a list of candidates and work up to the selection of the awardee...

Please explain the difference.

They call it All-NBA 'selections' for a reason. There is no accompanying award.

There's no actual award, but there's an honor accompanying the distinction.
If there would be nothing special about it, then what's the point of selecting in the first place?

LOL ZERO CREDIBILITY...

BTW, I'm keeping score: ElNono 2 - tre 0

[Water Cooler]

The talk around here is that Shaolin is getting owned...

[hitmanyr2k]

Wrong.

All-NBA teams are selections and not awards, in fact. You can argue this til you are blue in the face.

They call it the MVP 'award' for a reason. They call it the DPOY 'award' for a reason. They call it the Rookie of the Year 'award' for a reason. They call it the Coach of the Year 'award' for a reason.

They call it All-NBA 'selections' for a reason. There is no accompanying award.

Making All-NBA or All-Defense is comparable to any award though. Making those teams consistently say you've established yourself as one of the Top 5 or Top 10 players at your position on offense or defense in your era. Making those teams carry a lot of weight when it comes to selection for the Hall of Fame.

Players like Tony Parker, Chauncey Billups, and Paul Pierce have Finals MVP "awards" but they don't have the All-NBA teams that say they were the best of the best to go along with those trophies and that's why they're not guaranteed HOFs.

[ElNono]

The talk around here is that Shaolin is getting owned...

[JamStone]

Ratio their years in the league and you'll find the answer...

Kobe 14 seasons
Bruce 12 seasons

Kobe 8 1st team all defense in 14 seasons = 57.1%
Kobe 10 all defense (1st or 2nd team) in 14 seasons = 71.4%

Bruce 5 1st team all defense in 12 seasons = 41.7%
Bruce 8 all defense (1st or 2nd team) in 12 seasons = 66.7%

Is Kobe Bryant the better defender?

[ohmwrecker]

Years in the league have to be taken into account. But I will also add that when Kobe is motivated, he can be an exceptional defender.

The biggest difference is consistency. Bowen did it night in and night out.

The main issue with this comparison is that Bowen was a defensive specialist who was not expected to produce offensively. Kobe has always been the #1 or #2 option offensively. It's ridiculous to expect Kobe to play defense on Bowen's level when he is expending so much energy on the other end.

Take offense out of the equation and I would still have to give a slight edge to Bowen. I can't think of a player who was more committed to defense and he should have been officially recognized for that more than he was.

Ben Wallace owes Bruce Bowen a DPOY trophy.

[tbonewalker]

Kobe 14 seasons
Bruce 12 seasons

Kobe 8 1st team all defense in 14 seasons = 57.1%
Kobe 10 all defense (1st or 2nd team) in 14 seasons = 71.4%

Bruce 5 1st team all defense in 12 seasons = 41.7%
Bruce 8 all defense (1st or 2nd team) in 12 seasons = 66.7%

Is Kobe Bryant the better defender?

Bad a bing

[DeadlyDynasty]

Kobe 14 seasons
Bruce 12 seasons

Kobe 8 1st team all defense in 14 seasons = 57.1%
Kobe 10 all defense (1st or 2nd team) in 14 seasons = 71.4%

Bruce 5 1st team all defense in 12 seasons = 41.7%
Bruce 8 all defense (1st or 2nd team) in 12 seasons = 66.7%

Is Kobe Bryant the better defender?

That comparison aside, defense is what set Kobe apart from others (McGrady, Carter, Melo, etc earlier in his career)....and he STILL has it. Westbrook was torching LA in Round 1 last year, Phil puts Kobe on him in Games 4 & 5...ballgame. Kobe is still recognized by his peers as an elite defender and I always find it laughable that his haters try to argue he's overrated in that department. Tbh, I'm not one of the Kobe groupies on this site that throat his scrote on the reg. He has plenty of faults, as he is a chucker, and he was a divisive locker room presence earlier in his career. He shot horribly in the finals (again), got plenty of help from Gasol and Artest, but received the lion's share of recognition for the ring. I also think he didn't deserve the 2008 MVP (but he most assuredly deserved to win it in 2006 over Nash). All that being said, I've always appreciated Kobe BECAUSE OF HIS DEFENSE. He always brings it, and just ask his 2008 Olympic teammates about his D when he took on the opponent's best player every game.

[tbonewalker]

Ben Wallace owes Bruce Bowen a DPOY trophy.

Not in my opinion, he doesn't. But if you are going to steal an award from somebody who earned it, go ahead and take one from Wallace.

Lord knows Artest rightfully won DPOY over Bowen.

[JamStone]

Ben Wallace owes Bruce Bowen a DPOY trophy.

Which season?

2001-02
2002-03
2004-05
2005-06

[tbonewalker]

Making All-NBA or All-Defense is comparable to any award though.

Is it an award? No.

Is it a selection, yes.

Does it come with a trophy? No.

Is a selection an award? No.

[tbonewalker]

The talk around here is that Shaolin is getting owned...

Says the nobody with 3 posts who knows my name. Welcome to the block kid.

Here's to hoping you understand the difference between awards and selections.

[ohmwrecker]

Not in my opinion, he doesn't. But if you are going to steal an award from somebody who earned it, go ahead and take one from Wallace.

Lord knows Artest rightfully won DPOY over Bowen.

That's debatable and your opinion doesn't count for much around here.

[ohmwrecker]

Which season?

2001-02
2002-03
2004-05
2005-06

este

[ohmwrecker]

Says the nobody with 3 posts who knows my name. Welcome to the block kid.

Here's to hoping you understand the difference between awards and selections.

It doesn't matter that there is a difference between awards and "selections". Either one can be legitimately discussed in this debate.

[tbonewalker]

It doesn't matter that there is a difference between awards and "selections". Either one can be legitimately discussed in this debate.

GO back and read.

[ohmwrecker]

GO back and read.

Good God, why?

[tbonewalker]

Good God, why?

"Awards mean something or they don't, you choose."

I choose, yes, they do mean something.

Winning DPOY award twice > Duncan never winning it. Any way you slice that, it's a fact.

Selections mean something too. I'll go on a limb and say:

2 DPOY coupled with all of Rodmans selections means more to a defender than never winning DPOY but just making the defensive selection teams.

[ElNono]

Sombody explain tdumbass that JamStone is actually destroying the rationale by which he made his selection in the OP. He seems oblivious to that fact.