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tbh he averaged 22 ppg in the regular season and 21 in the playoffs. All of his advanced metrics were underwhelming too. This is a clear case of someone getting overrated because they rung.
yes he was
top 5 without question
tbh he averaged 22 ppg in the regular season and 21 in the playoffs. All of his advanced metrics were underwhelming too. This is a clear case of someone getting overrated because they rung.
I don't hold it against him. MJ is my 2nd favorite player ever. Am, and always was, a huge fan.
Regardless of what he was like in practice or off the courts.
Good points. I don't like self-given nicknames in the least (I abhor the whole Black Mamba nickname). Hakeem did murder him in the Finals, but he didn't (for once) blow the freethrows like Dennis Scott did. It was also his first learning experience. Most every championship team goes through the trials and tribulations of being humilated at some point before breaking through. He also could've rebounded a lot more.
The one thing I'll always agree on is that I don't understand how the detractors will always claim that Shaq won those three les on his own. I mean, if that were the case then all of those integral contributors (outside of Kobe--because he was a main component in those les) mind as well give their rings and Finals bonuses to Shaq because from Shaw to Horry there were tons of situations in which the surrounding cast saved Shaq and Kobe from disaster. Anyhow, I personally would welcome Shaq's jersey to be retired in Staples. I don't know if it'll happen, but it really should when he finally bids adieu.
Jordan's supposed baggery in practice was probably a better motivating tactic than whatever hand holding Mr. Rogers type alternative his detractors would have preferred he employed.
To me, being an obnoxious sports fan kind of goes along the lines of being overly pompous and arrogant when your team is doing well and talking down to other fans as if you actually played for the team or had anything to do with its success. That's obnoxious to me. You can add the loud part and it just magnifies the obnoxiousness. That's what I probably find most obnoxious. As if your team winning a championship means you're a smarter or better fan than fans of teams that didn't win a championship. As if you had a big part in the championship yourself. I think there's a line fans can cross distinguishing sincere excitement for your team's success and delusional fandom over what your role was in their success. That's obnoxious.
Mind you, it's a blanket statement. There are good and bad in every fanbase. I was just speaking in general. I think after the 2004 World Series, Boston fan let the top blow off from decades worth of frustration like a volcanic explosion. Like I said, coupled with the success of the Patriots and then culminating with the 2008 NBA le, Boston fan could see no equal and acted the part to the tee ever since. Then you add that "Shipping off to Boston" song and the red headed Shamus from WWE looking freaks and the Kevin Youkilis worship and the Papelbon stare and the KG chest pound and the Belichick smirk and all of the other negative things associated with the actual teams... and right or wrong those things get transposed onto their fans.
Can you imagine how must top will be blown off if the Cubs ever win the WS?
21/5/5 closer while being one of the top 2-3 perimeter defenders in the league and taking everyone's best swingman.
Like taking Manu and Bruise Bowen and combining them into one player.
If that ain't top 10, there aint a top 10.
Cartwright wanted to break his legs
And Cartwright is a pretty cool cat
Shaq held his own against Hakeem but it was clear the Dream was just on a different level, on both ends of the floor. Penny was out of this world good back then too.
He was like a Manu Ginobili player at that point of his career, very good but probably not top 10. Just because the Lakers won that year, his performance gets overrated. Like they won so he must have been a top 10 guy. Same mentality that gets players like James Posey 30 million dollar contracts or Larry Brown millions with the Raiders. Those guys were role players wsho got overrated but that win elevated Kobe from what he was that year (a legit all-star) into a supposed top 5 or 10 player. The next year is when he made the big leap. He was significantly below guys like Malone, Robinson, Mourning, Payton, Duncan, Garnett, and Shaq in 2000. He was borderline and right around the same level as Iverson, Allen, VC, and Miller tbh. Although you could argue Carter would have the bed in the playoffs.
Bull you just pulled that right out of your ass, give me your top 6-7.
Very debatable. That was the season Kobe arguably came into his own as an elite player. Ended the season with quite a few honors. He was an all star, second team all NBA, first team all NBA defense, and finished 12th in MVP voting. If he wasn't top 10 already, he was right on the cusp. But with the Lakers success that season and back then he was a beast on defense as well, there's a pretty strong argument that he had already cracked the top 10 in the league.
He was good mainly playing off Shaq that year, when O'Neal went out of the game and defenses could focus on him he became pretty average. He had one good game in the Finals when Shaq was sidelined, but for the most part he wasn't anywhere near where he would be in the next few years.
So defense doesn't matter now, huh? If Manu played defense like 2000 Kobe you Spurs mongers would probably tout him for MVP.
Fact of the matter is, he was a Manu caliber offensive player who was one of if not the best perimeter defender in the league. That kind of impact on both ends of the court don't just count for nothing. You merge Ginobili and prime Bruise into one guy and you have a top 10 player.
tbh I can't remember back that far in that much detail. But I doubt he became average when Shaq left the game.
Like I just said, it's debatable.
He was second team all NBA (you can argue that makes him top 10) and first team all defense. And those honors were based on the regular season before the Lakers won the le that year. So the perception, deserved or not, at least among coaches in the league was that he was right around a top 10 player in the league already.
You mentioned 7 guys ahead of him and four guys you think he was on par with. That puts him right around top 10.
LOL he said Robinson
Maybe you could make the argument he wasn't top 10 to start the season. But he was evolving at rapid speed and looked like a future legend by the end of May. There wasn't a guard/wing in the league I'd take over him by time the playoffs rolled around.
Yeah, I think I would have in the top 10 now that I think about it and look at who was around then.
Probably would agree with the first part.
Last comment, I'd probably argue Grant Hill (although he was injured by the time of the playoffs), Gary Payton, and maybe even Vince Carter. Back then we didn't know how VC would turn out but going into the playoff he looked every bit the part as one of the best players in the league.
Robinson had a 25 PER, and led the league in defensive rating. You must be a huge Shaq hater if you think he and Robinson couldn't have won multiple championships together.
Kobe was never anywhere near Bowen's level of defense.
Back then, Kobe actually was pretty close. His defense has been severely overblown probably since around 2002 or 2003 and he's been living off reputation since. But in the late 90s and first few season of the 2000s, Kobe was an elite perimeter defender. Maybe not as good as a Bowen or Payton, but he was in the neighborhood.
tbh if advanced statistics ever catch on in basketball like they have in baseball--and all signs point to them becoming more and more popular every day--Robinson is one player who will benefit from that. Of course Hakeem raping him in 1995 will always be the turd in that punch bowl.
Every bit as good as Bowen. Probably better.
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