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stretch overrating the players he supposed to, nothing to see here..
OMG
He makes his teammates better. He comes through for them when they need him most, whether its by scoring, defense, rebounds, or good picks. The team follows him, supports him, and likewise, he supports them and has their back. He holds his teammates accountable for their mistakes. He holds himself accountable for his own mistakes. He understands the importance of the "team" concept.
Happy now? I seriously did not think you would be such a dumbass that I would actually have to list out things Dirk does to show that he is a good leader. But you proved me wrong.
My question to you is, other than screaming and yelling like a moron, what does KG do to be so much better of a leader than Dirk? Or does he do basically the exact same things I listed here? Because from the things you mentioned to state your case for KG, those are basically the same things, the only difference is that KG is not as clutch of a scorer, but yells and screams a lot more. It's even more mind boggling that your posts are so ing hypocritical, keep making accusations that I'm looking at it only from Dirk's POV, but you are doing the exact same , only from KG's POV.
All of those things you said other than scoring, doesn't KG do the same? Why is Dirk a better leader than KG then? Because he's a clutch scorer, right? That's exactly my point all along. You reduce it to clutch scoring.
Yes or no, KG has the ability to be a great leader?
As for what KG does, I've actually listed them. It's not just yelling and screaming. He gets in his teammates ear, not just by yelling. You see him talking to his younger teammates on the court, on the bench, to get them right, to let them know when they made mistakes, to encourage them when they've done something right. His intensity and emotion, particularly defensively, are things that get his teammates to get on board with. Great defense is something that can follow that adage of "lead by example" whereas scoring in the clutch cannot. KG has been applauded as a great team leader. I haven't heard from Dirk's teammates how great of a leader Dirk. I've heard plenty of times him being praised for being a great player, not a great leader.
Herein this quote lies my point and where it all started from. You're basically saying KG possesses those same leadership qualities as Dirk EXCEPT for clutch scoring. Which is what I've been driving home this whole time. Your distinction in arguing that Dirk is a better leader is that he's a clutch scorer. Being a clutch scorer doesn't make a player a great leader. It simply doesn't. And since you just admitted KG has the ability to be a great leader, it goes back to why I had issues in the first place. Your quote:My question to you is, other than screaming and yelling like a moron, what does KG do to be so much better of a leader than Dirk? Or does he do basically the exact same things I listed here? Because from the things you mentioned to state your case for KG, those are basically the same things, the only difference is that KG is not as clutch of a scorer, but yells and screams a lot more. It's even more mind boggling that your posts are so ing hypocritical, keep making accusations that I'm looking at it only from Dirk's POV, but you are doing the exact same , only from KG's POV.
You just acknowleged that KG has the ability to be a great leader.ability to be a great leader > being a "two way player"
So in effect, it's not about Dirk being a great leader. It's about Dirk being a better clutch scorer. See why I took exception in the first place? You admitting KG has the ability to be a great player changes that quote right there. Because then you're saying:
"ability to be a great leader + being a clutch scorer > being a two way player + ability to be a great leader"
Reduces that to:
"being a clutch scorer > being a two way player"
That's something I might not necessarily agree with, but wouldn't take nearly as much exception to.
overrating how? saying that Dirk > KG as both a player and the leader of a team?
fact is, none of the Jammy says matters. KG is great and all, but dude has NOT led a team to a championship. Dirk has. In the end, that's all that matters. Dirk stuck around, and led a team to a championship, didn't have to force his way out of town to hop onto another team with 2 other star players on it. he stuck with them through thick and thin, and won a ing le.
You stupid ing idiot. So you just said that all the things I mentioned, they both do. So in the end, there is something Dirk does, that KG doesnt... clutch scoring, and THAT IS WHY HE IS A BETTER LEADER. The clutch scoring in the end is what sets them apart, even though they are pretty much even overall in other areas, give and take here and there. THAT IS WHY ITS REDUCED TO CLUTCH SCORING, BECAUSE THAT IS WHERE DIRK IS UNQUESTIONABLY BETTER.
Aside from 2008, I have a lot of trouble with the claim that KG was a great leader.
Reputation or not, KG's Timberwolves days were marked by mediocre-to-poor win/loss records except for 2004, poor clutch play and a legendary temper. There was a veritable turnstyle of players coming and going from Minnesota (often by choice). Wally Z hated him, Anthony Peeler hated him, Latrell Sprewell turned down $21MM rather than come back to play with him... He punched a ing rookie in practice...
He's certainly gotten better in that department with age, but he also has a few years on Dirk. I don't know if I'd say Dirk is the better leader yet but the Mavs have rallied around "winning it for Dirk" more than just about any team I can remember.
Last edited by Spurminator; 06-13-2011 at 05:39 PM.
SMH. But you argued it's not just clutch scoring.
I don't think clutch scoring makes a player a great leader. It's your distinction why Dirk is better. But it's a faulty rational as to why Dirk is a better leader.
If clutch scoring was a mark of a great leader, Carmelo Anthony would be a great leader. Monta Ellis would be a great leader. Jason Richardson this past season would be a great leader. Clutch scoring is not the mark that distinguishes players as great leaders.
As Spurminator says, the notion that KG is a great leader is somewhat biased due to the Boston years. Now you can also argue that KG needed a team full of desperate veterans to feed off his energy. But the fact that many people have disliked playing with him (even Steph) should tell you how great a guy he really is. Good player though, but nowhere near a franchise player like Dirk
Fair enough. I think a lot of people gave KG a pass in Minnesota because of McHale being an idiot in the front office and not having enough talent around him to truly compete. IIRC every first round the Timberwolves lost were against higher seed teams. Might have been one time it wasn't, but either most or all of them were against higher seeded teams. And when KG was given what was perceived as better talent, he helped lead that team to the best record in the league only to lose in the conference finals.
And when KG was traded and the Celtics won his very first year there because of some of the best team defense the league had seen, that sort of corroborated the idea that he was a great leader even in Minnesota despite not having much success, particularly in the playoffs.
Having teammates that dislike you doesn't make a player a bad leader, as you can say similar things about Jordan and his teammates. People don't question Jordan's leadership. It goes back to what you said about KG being a motivator. KG wasn't liked by all his teammates, but you didn't question KG bringing it every night, his desire and passion to win, or his intensity level.
But I do think you make a fair point.
That I wouldn't argue with. Dirk is the better franchise player as a #1 option on offense.As Spurminator says, the notion that KG is a great leader is somewhat biased due to the Boston years. Now you can also argue that KG needed a team full of desperate veterans to feed off his energy. But the fact that many people have disliked playing with him (even Steph) should tell you how great a guy he really is. Good player though, but nowhere near a franchise player like Dirk
If stretch didn't introduce this notion that Dirk is a "great leader," I likely wouldn't have extended this discussion.
I like Dirk better, but have him behind KG just slightly. I boil it down simply: KG's offensive production was much closer to Dirk's than Dirk's defense was to KG's. That is what they both dominated and KG was much, much better at his "weakness".
He's definitely behind Malone and Garnett. Duncan should go without saying.
this is the stupidest ive read
you said that KGs vocal leadership is one aspect of him being a great leader
going by your logic, since you said KG shows vocal leadership, then other guys who are vocal are great leaders, like mark madsen and jake voshkul.
cut that out already
i stated very clearly that there are a number of aspects that makes Dirk a great leader, and his clutch scoring is one of the aspects
your opinion means . you are a and gnsf. nuff said
sup Harlem...relentless multi-trolling the day after
It's not trolling, it's obvious. Garnett is a 2 way player. Same for Malone. Dirk is an elite jump shooter and nothing else. Only reason he has a ring is because of Miami's inexperience/lack of calls.sup Harlem...relentless multi-trolling the day after
You're the victim of the moment and media hype. Dirk was a monster in the playoffs and he and the Mavs proved to be better than everyboy else but Dirk didn't "completely outclassed" Wade. In fact he didn't outclassed him at all, well maybe he did off the court.
Dirk: 26 pts, 41 FG%, 9.7 rbds, 2 assts, 0.7 blks, 0.7 stls, 2.8 TO
Wade: 26.5 pts, 54 FG%, 7 rbds, 5.2 assts, 1.5 blks, 1.5 stls, 2.5 TO
Cue sensitive Mavsfan response.
Of course, no mention of the fact that Dallas had focused its defense on LeBron, trapping him hard of any pick and rolls, while Dirk was the main focus. Yet the 4th quarter stats say it all.
Yeah, I know that for you guys basketball resumes to scoring in the 4th.
Question: did Dirk completely outclassed Wade?
Can't we just base this on the fact that Dirk led his team to the finals twice, and won it once while earning FMVP honors, while KG won a ring, but was one of two second options, and has no FMVP trophy.
As a Spurs fan, Duncan's accolades are a key point to making his case valid in arguing his place against Shaq and Kobe. It should be no different for Dirk and KG.
You can, but that's a very flawed argument.
There's a couple things wrong here. Garnett makes his teammates better and plays both ends of the floor, 2 things that are the staples of great players. Dirk does neither of them.
How so? Pierce won FMVP. If KG was so great, and a top PF all-time over Dirk, then wouldn't he have earned the award over a top 50 SG?
That's bull . He's just as good as Duncan at making his teammates better on the offensive end. He touches the ball almost every possession and breaks the defense down through double teams. Just because his game isn't as aesthetically pleasing, doesn't mean he isn't as efficient. Your argument is pathetic.
KG is better at defense obviously, but he's not an unstoppable force like Hakeem or anything. He yells, just like Ewing did.
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