He knows as much about basketball as AC Green did about getting laid.
You guys are defining superstar by popularity, not by effect on the game. Pau is why the Lakers won the b2b recently.
How does Melo and Amare effect the game? They were swept in the 1st round by people who aren't even on the superstar list (Paul Pierce, Rajon Rondo and Ray Allen). If that can happen, how are these two "superstars"? Popularity, that's all.
1. Tim
2. Karl
3. KG
4. Charles
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. Dirk
To me, those guys are 1.5 options and Allen was a #2 Robin backing them up. Plus every man on that roster busted his ass on the defensive end. Garnett anchored the defense and was a leader in the locker room (something Pierce could not do), whereas Pierce could create his own shot and you could run the offense through him at crunch time (something KG could not do).
When it comes to winning a le, there's more than one way to skin a cat, but one common denominator is you have to be a good defensive team and one great player.
I hate KG, why would I be upset? And I love how yall s used to love to use the lack of help excuse for Dirk but conveniently ignore the horrible cir stances KG had in Minny...and yea your right not everyone can carry a team with no all-stars. Dirk is an all-time great, probably Top 25 player and 3rd best PF ever which is why he was able to. That and he had a 90 million payroll and very solid defenders to cover his average D, this wasnt a TD or Dream performance were they anchored both sides of the ball.FkLA is upset as () that it took KG 9 seasons to get out of the 1st round (one of the 1st round losses involving Dirk drop kicking him from the top rope head to head). Fret not, not every player can carry a team of no other all stars to a championship. That is reserved for some of the best players ever.
I know its not a big deal to you and youre just glad to get that le...but who would you rate higher Fin, KG or Dirk? And where would you rank Dirk in an all-time list??
Dirk led an injury riddled team to a le against a team with 2 top 5 players. KG can't come close to something like that. , he had to have Bynum out to win his. You ain't takin that away from the Diggler.
What did he do in '03? Duncan would have won with a few of the teams Dirk lost with.Dirk won his 2 ships with a worse supporting cast than Duncan ever won with. Duncan wouldn't have beaten lebron and wade with 33 or 34 year old jason terry and 38 year old kidd as his main supporters
I'm pretty sure he got hurt in a series that Dallas almost took to a Game 7 without him.
Well we have to use a little common sense here. The Billups thing is stretching it... it's a poor man's version of the Horry argument. That Pistons team was an anomaly.
...but you make valid points, and I agree with you on KG's importance to the Celtics that year. I don't think him finishing 2nd in MVP voting is a telling story though. Dirk has finished among the top 3 in voting plenty of times. Every other point you make about KG's performance that year is factual. I would argue that every point you made for KG is also an accurate description of Dirk's performance this year.
KG plays defense, of course. He played/plays better defense than Dirk ever did, sure. Both are 20 and 10, HOF calibur. He never played offense at the level Dirk did/does... as a Spurs fan, I'm a big believer in defense, but you have to acknowledge at some point, that Dirk is one of the few players in the history of the NBA who's offense can be ranked among the tier of unstoppable. That in itself should alter the scales from tipping to KG's favor due to his stellar defense and Dirk's lack thereof, over to the German's favor for being a one-man offense.
Secondly, as a Spurs fan, I've always prided on Duncan's accolades. When people want to argue against Duncan being the greatest PF ever, he always has the hardware to make up for the lack of aestheticism in his game. If we're going to argue Dirk vs KG, then I'm not about to change my philosophy. Dirk has a FMVP for a reason, and that was because he was the leader of his team. KG was the backbone of the defense, and a dominant low post presence, but he was not the closer, he was not the first option, and he was a secondary leader along with Ray Ray, and under Paul. I'm sure it helps to have Perkins next to you as well.
If KG had won with Minny, this would be a different argument, but he won on a team in which he shared leadership, and on a team that was cheaply made in the same model that this year's Heat were. The Celtics and Heat don't have 3 all-star caliber players, they have 3 Hall of Fame caliber players. Dirk stayed with his team through bad times, albeit a better owner, he has to be given extra credit for sticking with Dallas and winning without a second all-star.
talking about Duncan
After thinking about it, I'd say it's easier to build a championship team around Dirk. Yes, KG is a good offensive player who can anchor a defense, but there's nothing like having a guy you can go to late in ball-games that is unguardable... just have to hope he misses. When you are spending max money on KG, you need another all-star calibur perimeter player who can create his own shot late in ball-games.
Yep, it was all him 5x champion Kobe and double that champ Phil didnt have to do with it ....
One of whom has clearly been exposed as a mental midget. KG did go head to head against two Top 5 players in Shaq & Kobe in the 04' WCFs and pretty much singlehandedly pushed them to six hard fought games... was even playing PG bringing the ball up the court bc of Cassell's injury. Not much worse than how Dirk fared against Shaq & Wade in 06' tbh.
Props to the Diggler for his le but his body of work still doesnt measure up to KG's.
Dirk just finished leading his Mavs to a le a la Duncan in 03, without an obvious all-star calibur 2nd option.One of whom has clearly been exposed as a mental midget. KG did go head to head against two Top 5 players in Shaq & Kobe in the 04' WCFs and pretty much singlehandedly pushed them to six hard fought games... was even playing PG bringing the ball up the court bc of Cassell's injury. Not much worse than how Dirk fared against Shaq & Wade in 06' tbh.
Props to the Diggler for his le but his body of work still doesnt measure up to KG's.
Dirk is the greater player of the two.
Would yall s stop with the re ed a la Duncan 03' or a la Dream 95' comparisons. Timmy and Olajuwon are two of the best defensive players ever, they anchored those defenses on top of carrying the offenses. They truly carried those teams on their back. Dirk carried this Mavs team offensively, thats it. Chandler, Marion, Stevenson, and probably even Kidd had a bigger impact defensively than Dirk. He was still the best player on the team but stop with the stupid 03'/95' comparisons tbh.
Kobe = 0x championships without Shaq or Pau. Shaq was a superstar. Kobe isn't as good as he was during the 3peat. That means Pau is a superstar. Nothing after Shaq, nothing before Pau, 3 consecutive Finals appearances after "acquiring" Pau. Do the math.Yep, it was all him 5x champion Kobe and double that champ Phil didnt have to do with it ....
Never said anything about offense or defense. The comparison lies in not having a valid second option. .
When you say a la Duncan 03' it kind of suggests both sides of the ball, because well thats what Duncan did in 03'. And he didnt have the luxury of having a valid second option but he did have a $90+ million payroll with the right players around him to cover his deficiencies...especially on the defensive end. Something KG never had in Minny, take that into account before proclaiming Dirk>KG for the sole reason that he led a team with no legit #2 scorer to a le.
not for the sole reason, but it is one. My extended response is #217.
Dan Shanoff isn't any less re ed today, either.
You make a point about Dirk being one of the best offensive players ever, which I would agree with. But what about KG being one of the best defensive players ever? And probably a Top 5 two way player ever??Just like Dirk has the ability to be a one-man offense KG has the ability to be a one-man defense.
As for the hardware argument...KG made that 08' team the great defensive team that they were, he carried them defensively and added about 20 ppg on the other end. Dirk carried this 11' Mavs team on his back offensively. Is there really such a big difference between the importance each player had in their respective teams run?? I dont really see it. Its easy to simply go by who got the FMVP but look at the whole picture, the entire regular season and playoffs not just one series. KG was the best player on that Celtics team.
Boiled down: KG has been an all-world defender throughout his career on top of providing 20-25 ppg. Dirk has been an all-world scorer and clutch performer. Both have a ring as the best player on their respective teams. I'll give the slight edge to KG.
Yeah and before that WCF, it took him 9 seasons to get out of the 1st round.One of whom has clearly been exposed as a mental midget. KG did go head to head against two Top 5 players in Shaq & Kobe in the 04' WCFs and pretty much singlehandedly pushed them to six hard fought games... was even playing PG bringing the ball up the court bc of Cassell's injury. Not much worse than how Dirk fared against Shaq & Wade in 06' tbh.
Props to the Diggler for his le but his body of work still doesnt measure up to KG's.
And his body of work certainly does stack up to KG's.
The turning point in our views is how good KG's defense is. While I agree that he's stellar, and a top defender of all time, I feel his persona overrates it a tiny bit. Our views on KG are also different in ranking him top5 versatility-wise.
Boiled down (imho): I feel Dirk's special offensive talents make up for his lack of defense when compared to KG. At this point, both come out even. I feel, because Dirk was the sole leader, and is extremely clutch, I give him the nod, since we have Pierce and Ray doing the 4th quarter scoring.
I'll go ahead and agree to disagree with you though. We both agree that the gap between the two is slight, and we're both making valid points, imo. Glad to have an actual debate with someone on this board, as it rarely remains civil.
I think it's basically a toss up at this point between Dirk and KG. You can make a case for either KG > Dirk and Dirk > KG and not be wrong.
I know in his prime KG could you get 21 a game but he was NEVER somebody who you could run your offense through at crunch time. I worry that 50 years from now people will look at Duncan and KG's stats and essentially conclude they were about the same when we know for sure that Duncan at his prime was better than KG at his.
In the case of both of them, something is lacking - KG's inability to consistently create for himself in the last minutes of a game and Dirk being a bad defender for a large stretch of his career. Dirk has improved on defense to the point that I would say he's a good team defender and there is usually one guy on the other team you can hide him on. So building around them requires getting somebody who can do what they can't. KG needed Pierce as a shot creator and a crunchtime scorer. Dirk needed Chandler as somebody who could anchor the defense in the paint.
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