Where Does This Put Dirk Amongst The Greats???

[21_Blessings]

wait wasn't pierce the finals mvp in 08?

Pierce didn't deserve that Finals MVP over Ray Allen. Not after his 6 point game 3. Allen was the guy hitting the clincher at the end of game 4. And Garnett/Allen's effort in game 6 blew the Lakers out really early.

That MVP should have went to Allen and then KG.

[dirk4mvp]

so now there's even people who though Ray Allen was more important to that team than KG.

lol daf

[21_Blessings]

In the case of both of them, something is lacking - KG's inability to consistently create for himself in the last minutes of a game and Dirk being a bad defender for a large stretch of his career. Dirk has improved on defense to the point that I would say he's a good team defender and there is usually one guy on the other team you can hide him on. So building around them requires getting somebody who can do what they can't. KG needed Pierce as a shot creator and a crunchtime scorer. Dirk needed Chandler as somebody who could anchor the defense in the paint.

To be fair, Dirk needed to Terry to carry someone of that crunch time scoring load. Else Miami wins that series in 5 or you're playing game 7 in Miami. He's Dirk's Ray Allen.

[21_Blessings]

so now there's even people who though Ray Allen was more important to that team than KG.

lol daf

Not really. KG made that defense what is was. It was his team. Pierce/Allen were just better late game offensive options.

Finals MVP measures one series. Not total team importance.

[FkLA]

The turning point in our views is how good KG's defense is. While I agree that he's stellar, and a top defender of all time, I feel his persona overrates it a tiny bit. Our views on KG are also different in ranking him top5 versatility-wise.

Boiled down (imho): I feel Dirk's special offensive talents make up for his lack of defense when compared to KG. At this point, both come out even. I feel, because Dirk was the sole leader, and is extremely clutch, I give him the nod, since we have Pierce and Ray doing the 4th quarter scoring.

I'll go ahead and agree to disagree with you though. We both agree that the gap between the two is slight, and we're both making valid points, imo. Glad to have an actual debate with someone on this board, as it rarely remains civil.

The gap between the two is indeed slight, so fair enough. Agreed to disagree.

I think it's basically a toss up at this point between Dirk and KG. You can make a case for either KG > Dirk and Dirk > KG and not be wrong.

I know in his prime KG could you get 21 a game but he was NEVER somebody who you could run your offense through at crunch time. I worry that 50 years from now people will look at Duncan and KG's stats and essentially conclude they were about the same when we know for sure that Duncan at his prime was better than KG at his.

In the case of both of them, something is lacking - KG's inability to consistently create for himself in the last minutes of a game and Dirk being a bad defender for a large stretch of his career. Dirk has improved on defense to the point that I would say he's a good team defender and there is usually one guy on the other team you can hide him on. So building around them requires getting somebody who can do what they can't. KG needed Pierce as a shot creator and a crunchtime scorer. Dirk needed Chandler as somebody who could anchor the defense in the paint.

The Godfather has spoken. Yall Mav s with absolutely no objectivity and who feel KG vs. Dirk isnt even a debate should take note.

[dirk4mvp]

who has ever said isn't even a debate?

[Texas Chili Dog]

[FkLA]

who has ever said isn't even a debate?

Pretty much all the people in this thread that have said KG>Dirk have said its close, and only give a slight edge to KG. Most of yall Mav s other then The Godfather have responded by calling those same people idiots, butthurt, angry, or saying its just a shtick. Those things dont exactly show that yall s think its something thats up for debate.

[dirk4mvp]

Someone saying KG was unquestioned the best player on the 08 Celtics is an idiot, though.

[FkLA]

Someone saying KG was unquestioned the best player on the 08 Celtics is an idiot, though.

Why?He anchored that defense and was second in scoring for his team (trailing Pierce by less than a point) in the regular season. Then followed it up by anchoring the defense and leading his team in scoring in the playoffs. The lack of Finals MVP doesnt change the fact that he was the best player on that team.

[Ice009]

Would yall s stop with the re ed a la Duncan 03' or a la Dream 95' comparisons. Timmy and Olajuwon are two of the best defensive players ever, they anchored those defenses on top of carrying the offenses. They truly carried those teams on their back. Dirk carried this Mavs team offensively, thats it. Chandler, Marion, Stevenson, and probably even Kidd had a bigger impact defensively than Dirk. He was still the best player on the team but stop with the stupid 03'/95' comparisons tbh.

I'd have to agree. I love defense first over all OFFENSE and people time and time again overlook defense and fall in love with offense.

Hakeem and Tim were on another level. THEY DOMINATED ON BOTH ENDS AND CARRIED THEIR teams to the Championship. BOTH ends of the court. Bill Russell even said after '03 or '05 that Tim maybe the most complete player he's seen because of his play on both ends of the court. People like Bill Russell notice these things, but the average fans seem to only look at the offensive side of the ball.

Dirk did it offensively with A LOT of help defensively. You couldn't even say he is in the top 4 defensively on his own team.

Not to take anything away from Dirk, but I'd rate Dirk's performance 3rd behind those two. I absolutely loved the way Dirk played in these playoffs. One of the all time greatest performances ever. He really was AWESOME.

[Ice009]

I don't know what thread to put this in, but can anyone tell me what Rick Carlisle is talking about here : http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=6660685

He said there is 11 players in NBA history that have been 10 time All-Stars, League MVP and Finals MVP. He said Dirk is the 11th.

He listed 10 players with Dirk being his 11th, but he didn't mention Tim Duncan, Shaq or Hakeem who have all done it too. WTF?

I've had a few drinks and not sure if I am missing something here, but It's very disrespectful of Carlisle to prop up Dirk and completely ing miss out Tim, Shaq and Hakeem who all have more rings.

[Sportstudi]

I don't know what thread to put this in, but can anyone tell me what Rick Carlisle is talking about here : http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=6660685

He said there is 11 players in NBA history that have been 10 time All-Stars, League MVP and Finals MVP. He said Dirk is the 11th.

He listed 10 players with Dirk being his 11th, but he didn't mention Tim Duncan, Shaq or Hakeem who have all done it too. WTF?

I've had a few drinks and not sure if I am missing something here, but It's very disrespectful of Carlisle to prop up Dirk and completely ing miss out Tim, Shaq and Hakeem who all have more rings.

One guy on dallas-mavs posted that list, too.

Players with at least 10 all-star appearances, MVP, and Finals MVP.

Wilt
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan
Bird
Kobe
West
Moses Malone
MJ
Dirk

I think it ain't complete and obviously a few are missing. Mistake by Carlisle, I think. For instance, where's Kareem? Additionally, West never was the MVP of the regular season.

[Ice009]

One guy on dallas-mavs posted that list, too.

Players with at least 10 all-star appearances, MVP, and Finals MVP.

Wilt
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan
Bird
Kobe
West
Moses Malone
MJ
Dirk

I think it ain't complete and obviously a few are missing. Mistake by Carlisle, I think. For instance, where's Kareem? Additionally, West never was the MVP of the regular season.

Carlisle says he mentioned Dirk being one of the greatest players ever and then it sounds like he tries to use this stat to prove Dirk is one of only 11 players to do this.

Watch that video clip he names 10 players and none of those 3 that he mentioned was Tim, Hakeem or Shaq. That's why I am asking wtf he is talking about. He must be smoking that same Pippen is smoking because it's disrespectful leaving out those three and trying to prop Dirk up higher by doing so.

[endrity]

There are about 12 other players aside from Dirk in that list I think.

Nonetheless, to chime in on the debate. I think the issue is simple, you pay 20 million a dollar to the guy that carries you in the last five minutes of a close game, not to the guy that plays hot potato with the ball. That's the key Dirk > KG argument. The fact that KG does a few things better than Dirk, doesn't mean those things are necessarily as important as scoring (assists, rebounds).

2006 Marion was a monster statistically, 20 and 8, with great percentages, plus being one of the most versatile defenders the league has ever seen. You still take Melo as your building block if you are a GM. You can fill the rest of the roster needs with the 8-10 million dollar contracts. But they key guy? He has to deliver with the game on the line.

At the end of the day scouts are not traveling to the most distant corners of the world to find the new Tony Allen or Bruce Bowen. They are travelling there to find the new Dirk. That's the elite skill that about 4-5 people on the planet have and that NBA teams want to put their hands on.

[endrity]

Carlisle’s evaluation of some key individuals:

The coach made mention of virtually everyone on the roster. He said of Jason Kidd, “I wouldn’t bet against greatness. … his DNA is all over this thing.’’ He called Shawn Marion “our best athlete.’’ He said J.J. Barea “is a fighter … with incredibly big balls.’’ He said Tyson Chandler is “an extremely special player.’’ But he saved his highest praise for Dirk Nowitzki, wanting to be so certain to properly frame the moment that he pulled from his pocket a list of “the 13 guys in NBA history who’ve been league MVP, Finals MVP and 10-time All-Star. Bill Russell, Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson,

[ohmwrecker]

This championship makes up for the one he should of had in '06 (not to mention '07). In my estimation he should stay about where he was before this season.

[endrity]

pretty much well said, and exactly why i have dirk above even TD on my list. Dirk would have 4 rings or more with TD's supporting cast. , if we don't get screwed in 06, maybe we win and don't have a mental meltdown the following year and he has 3 anyway, with jason terry as his best sidekick.

I can't make that argument. TD delivered over and over again. Don't let his demeanor fool you. Guy was a killer on the court. I don't care for the 5>4, to me TD is the top player of his generation.

It's
TD
Kobe
Shaq (though he's a bit older).
Dirk
KG

Too bad T-Mac's back gave on him. He could have been there. I loved the guy's game.

[endrity]

This championship makes up for the one he should of had in '06 (not to mention '07). In my estimation he should stay about where he was before this season.

which was?

A lot of Dirk's perception was built on the idea that he couldn't ring. So if you think he already had one in 06, than to you he already was a legend?

[ohmwrecker]

which was?

A lot of Dirk's perception was built on the idea that he couldn't ring. So if you think he already had one in 06, than to you he already was a legend?

I wouldn't say "could not", I would say "did not". He had two really good opportunities in back2back seasons to get it done and he failed to do it. It might hurt him a little that it happened at a time when the Lakers collapsed and the Spurs declined, but he will be considered one of the best of this generation. Still behind Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Garnett . . . but I might put him above Wade now. I think he made up for '06 in that regard. He's definitely only 2nd to Kobe as a pure scorer though.

[dirk4mvp]

Spurs declined and Lakers collapsed.

ok.

[endrity]

I wouldn't say "could not", I would say "did not". He had two really good opportunities in back2back seasons to get it done and he failed to do it. It might hurt him a little that it happened at a time when the Lakers collapsed and the Spurs declined, but he will be considered one of the best of this generation. Still behind Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Garnett . . . but I might put him above Wade now. I think he made up for '06 in that regard. He's definitely only 2nd to Kobe as a pure scorer though.

Wade is not his generation though. The other guys are. Wade will be compared to the 03 draft class forever, and some of the guys that followed like Howard and CP3. And if you're holding Dirk accountable for missing out on those opportunities there are two things I'd like to say:

1) The other guys also missed out. Kobe in 04 and 08, as well as the big quit-job in 06. Duncan in 04 and 06. Shaq, pretty much every year he didn't win because he was to lazy to get in shape. All of them missed out ....

2)... except KG. To miss out on an opportunity you need to get there first. And KG rarely got there. So he is firmly behind Dirk in my book. He is greatest no.2 in the history of the game, but he's not a legit franchise player. The others all were.

[Venti Quattro]

Lakers got swept. Destroyed, not collapsed.

The Spurs got... lol 8.

[ohmwrecker]

Spurs declined and Lakers collapsed.

ok.

I would say that's pretty accurate. The Spurs have been on a slow decline for a few years now. They fought the young, physical Grizzlies hard, but they didn't have the guns, gas or legs to overcome.

The Lakers got swept (by another veteran team) coming off a championship season. I would call that a collapse.

[DPG21920]

Dirk4MVP, what do you think of Tyson's argument that Dirk is ahead of Duncan?