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I am willing to give up RJ. I would just prefer that it improves the Spurs roster. Nothing in that quote denotes a refusal to give up RJ.
That is exactly what I said.
For as much as I'd like R.J gone, you are wrong here. The only skills Outlaw possesses that R.J does not is his horrid shot selection. On top of that, Outlaw is an overrated defender (due to his length and youth; many stereotype him into an adequate defender, which couldn't be more wrong).
Outlaw for Jefferson wouldn't improve the team whatsoever.
I am willing to give up RJ. I would just prefer that it improves the Spurs roster. Nothing in that quote denotes a refusal to give up RJ.
That is exactly what I said.
Here's a NEW idea...
Why not change the style of offense that capitalizes on RJ's strengths and minimizes his weaknesses. I'm sure many don't realize that RJ was having a fairly decent regular season in that he shot 44% from the 3, 47% from the field and was healthy all season. He is a transition player (like a lot of SFs are)...
Since it doesn't look like the Spurs will be able to obtain the type of players they like (athletic, defense minded) outside of Leonard, why not play a more uptempo style. They tried it for the 1st half of the season and it worked.
Keep the team as it is, just change the mindset (and method of execution).
It's not really a new idea. I have mentioned this before. Running an offense that caters to RJ's strengths is really the only way to keep him motivated, productive and interested in the other areas of the game. The problem arises with Pop's refusal to modify the system for one player at the detriment of the team philosophy. Which is understanble, if that is indeed the ultimate result. Although, a compromise should probably be explored if the Spurs find themselves stuck with RJ for another season.
The Spurs would have to get rid of Pop for that to happen.
Perhaps.
Good coaches can teach players how to play a specific system but are at the mercy of the players they have.
Great coaches can teach that system but have a better ability to find/obtain the players that fit their system better (via drafting/recruiting).
Elite coaches adapt their system to the players they have and WIN with it.
Pop is an Elite coach. He's already proven that he can adapt. He had the oldest team in the league and produced the 2nd best record.
I would've loved to see what the Spurs could've done w/ the team from the 1st 1/2 of the season - maybe next year we'll see...
RJ isn't the ONLY big contract for an underachieving player out there. almost every team has it's RJ. you can always talk about swapping such contracts and hope that the player you get back turns out to be a better fit. doesn't work out that way very often though.
I don't care about trades that don't make us contenders for the le. If you just want to see different faces, trade anyone for anyone.
From 2004-09, the 5 seasons before RJ got to SA, he was averaging about 19-20ppg. He shows up, his pic is on the front page of the paper and EVERYONE is happy.
Then, he gets put into the system and is the 4th option (when he used to be the 1st). Also, he's asked to play defense which he was never really all that good at and certainly doesn't want to do. But he accepts his role and tries to become more of the type of SF that the Spurs needs. But, it just isn't in him.
All the while, he didn't really complain. He accepts responsibility for his play or lack thereof. He isn't hurt often (has played at least 80 games a yr since arrival) and at least does offer some excitement and scoring - albeit not as much as hoped for. He even opted out of a huge contract and took less per year to help the team out salary cap wise.
Does RJ suck outright? no. On another team, he's a 16-18 ppg player still. But he's like trying to use a running back (offense minded) and the Spurs want him to play free safety (defense minded) - he has the size, speed and physical attributes but lacks the specific athletism and mentality altogether.
The Spurs just drafted a free safety in Leonard - this may allow RJ to play a lil more running back next year.
That "offense" in the first half of last season had more to do with the back-court's defense more than anything else.
In the beginning of last year, the Spurs were able to push the ball more in transition for quick/efficient opportunities due to back-court/wings playing at a very high/active level on the defensive end. They did this by having very active hands in passing lanes, forcing turnovers with steals and deflections (pretty sure Parker had more steals 20 games into last year than he had the entire previous season). I had never seen Parker that active on the defensive end. Unfortunately that didn't last, as his defense (along with many others) regressed significantly as the season wore on (fatigue from an 82-game season?).
As many of you know, the less blocks, steals and deflections the team has, the less opportunities the teams has to actually run against favorable numbers (2 on 1;3 on 2; 4 on 3). Which Spurs did more often in the first half of last season than they've had in recent years. This was the outcome to the active defense the perimeter players provided off the ball and in the passing lanes. IMO
The Spurs can't run a run and gun style offense if they are always taking the ball out after the opposition converts a field goal. At the same time, they don't have the personnel for an efficient fast pace style when taking the ball out from under the hoop.
If you are trying to develop a run and gun/fast pace style (that wins games) , a very versatile pick and roll big man that attracts attention in rolling athletically to the hoop and pick/popping is vital. This kind of player can set picks early in the clock and attracts all kinds of attention rolling to the basket or stepping out for a jumper. Defensive players off the ball leave their man so early in trying to impede this versatile four getting to the hoop that it leaves wide open avenues for the off-the ball offensive players early and often--giving the team quick efficient looks.
That is why the Suns (w/Amare) were able to run such a fast pace/efficient winning style without getting stops. Now the Suns don't run an effective style even with Nash. They didn't even make the playoffs last year (that tells you how important it is to have an Amare type player for this style to actually win a large amount of games).
The Spurs don't have that. Therefore, in order to tailor to R.J's strengths or to push up the pace effectively and efficiently-- they will have to improve their defense in every phase they can (which they're trying to do personnel-wise) to give them more efficient opportunities in transition or early in the shot clock.IMO
Last edited by MaNu4Tres; 07-04-2011 at 11:53 AM.
I hear your reasons and somehow agree, but this point is nonsense. he left 15 million on the table and got back 39 million in guaranteed money. he knew very well, that in 2011 he will have a hard time to find a team that offers him 24 million guaranteed money. and this doesn't even consider a possible lock out.
so yes, it helped the Spurs short term that he opted out, but it was a very good deal for RJ in the long run and for sure "help the team" wasn't the major reason to do so.
Yes, that is very true - win win situation. But in order for that to happen, he had to 1st trust that the Spurs would do what they said they would, then he had to opt out of a $15 million salary year.
@MaNu - very good assessment.
And this! great post.
all the complaining about trading rj gets very annoying just relax and be a fan. Your trade scenarios are getting old. Pop and coaching staffs job is to fix the Spurs d and o, your job is to wait and see, you want to trade someone send your resume in to the Spurs, Rj aint goin nowhere notime soon, deal with it.
While I think you are 100% correct, it doesn't mean the FO shouldn't try.And this! great post.
all the complaining about trading rj gets very annoying just relax and be a fan. Your trade scenarios are getting old. Pop and coaching staffs job is to fix the Spurs d and o, your job is to wait and see, you want to trade someone send your resume in to the Spurs, Rj aint goin nowhere notime soon, deal with it.
There are many other teams that RJ would do much better in - Suns, Clippers, Golden State, New Orleans, Orlando...many others. Some have SFs of their own, others don't want to take the risk on RJ. Regardless, almost all players want to be in systems which THEY are featured and RJ is no different.
TP, in somewhat the same fashion, really seems to be like a better fit elsewhere. LA, NY, Chicago - some major city (he'd be REALLY good on the Heat). But, out of loyalty and love for the city, he doesn't cause a ruckus about being traded when the Spurs are clearly in decline - save a couple of mistimed quotes.
My whole point is that the Big 3 has about 2% chance of realistically winning a championship. And, given those chances, I'm not all for putting up a good fight or having a great regular season record or even losing in the Western Conf finals. I want to see them in the FINALS.
Honestly, what good is having the Big 3 intact for another year only to lose early in the Playoffs and be that much further away from contending in the future.
So, why not trade TP to better pastures for a younger big man and/or draft picks? What about a different style of offense? How about keeping everything the way it is, just play/start the younger players to see what we got?
Viva Los Spurs in 2016.
Any Fool can see that RJ isn't the worst player in the NBA, but the product you get for 30 mil I think is what everyone has a huge problem with.
TP, Splitter and McDyess to Atlanta for Al Horford and Kirk Heinrich (that should be its own thread)...
The point it is, and it's less "tangible", is that RJ is clearly a drain on the team's morale, the coach and overall style of play. He drags everything down, he's mentally soft and he sticks out like a sore thumb. While he may have more talent than someone else they get back in a trade in a bubble, it doesn't matter. He has to go.
Seeing him take the court again would be a completely deflating issue for the team and the fans.
I would do this just because I feel about Jefferson the exact same way I feel about Bonner. I simply don't want to see either one on the floor as a Spur anymore. I don't want to see if they can change their game, or do better next year. I don't even want them to have a chance (at least, not in this orgo).
In fact, I'm afraid that they will do the exact same thing they did this season, which is show up for the first part of the regular season to engrave themselves into the rotation, then they quickly revert back to the perennial playoff pussies that we have all come to expect.
Outlaw may or may not be a change for the better, but at least I wouldn't feel like I was watching the same crappy movie over again. As for Bonner, pretty sure a sequel is already being planned for next spring.
I'd be happy to ship out RJ for a bag of chips, as long as the bag of chips didn't have 4 years left on it's contract. Seriously, an ending contract would do it for me. I just don't think Outlaw is anything but a different, more long term problem.
I'd do this trade mainly for a couple reasons:
1. It would be nice to have a 6'9 SF that can play multiple positions.
2. Change of pace for both RJ & Outlaw (hopefully with the change in environment, Outlaw can develop some defensive fundamentals; never really been on a defensive first style team).
3. Although some would not agree, entering next season (whenever that is) RJ would be the starter at SF, with this trade Outlaw wouldn't be guaranteed that spot. It would create some healthy compe ion for the spot.
I'd trade RJ contract for a bag of stones
I would do it. Although Outlaw is probably just as limited offensively as RJ and wouldn't hit the 3 as effective as RJ either, he definitely brings more of a toughness and is better all around defensively. Wouldn't be much of an upgrade but worth it.
Yeah, no . Trading RJ for nothing would be a better trade then trading him for Outlaw.
Question is would you trade him for Outlaw (pretty much the same contract give or take). Anyone would trade him in a salary dump.
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