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Yep. And since about zero of them had to pay for their arenas, it's not like they have to suffer from the overhead.
I agree that bonner is way worse for the team than , who gets some underserving critisism. It was the spurs frontline that got killed in the playloffs, led by bonners 20 min/game. When spurs were peaking rj was one of the major reasons why. While ginger, even when shooting well, still was giving up points on the defensive end. Also his hot shooting nights usually happened with little pressure involved, when spurs were already up in the first half.
Yep. And since about zero of them had to pay for their arenas, it's not like they have to suffer from the overhead.
I must admit, it is REALLY nice to be so critical of players who ended up w/ the best record in the Western Conference.
Whenver you get a chance, go to basketball-reference.com and look up the Spurs records. Bonner's 3 pt % last season ranks among the teams best ever. RJ shot 44% from the 3 as well.
Are they overpaid for their value - yes. Are they both a liability on defense - pretty much. But there are certainly much worse options the Spurs could have on their roster right now...
Sorry, but only the playoffs matter, hence why no one gave a when Horry used to mail in 9/10 of the season as long as he could hit the big shot when it mattered.
It'd be more interesting to look up Bonner's 3 point % against +.500 teams as well as the playoffs (both stats would most likely have him shooting less than 35% from outside I'm sure).
RJ was so bad that one of the highest paid players on the team couldn't even find minutes in the most crucial game of the playoffs from a coach who loves overplaying average players or simply playing them out of position.
I would have no problem over looking both Bonner and RJ's lack of D if their O was making up for the difference. Gary Neal is arguably the only Spurs outside of the big 3 who's strong offense compensates for the games where his D isn't up to par. With Bonner and RJ, if they aren't hitting their shots, they're useless. They aren't good at anything else to make up for how badly they choke come playoff time.
Spurs had too many players playing bad from Parker all the way down to Blair.
Yes Bonner and R.J did bad, but to fault them and not the others is pretty foolish.
Players who played bad in the playoffs:
Parker- Was a total no show in the first 3 playoff games.
Jefferson- 35% 3pt. 37 % from the field-- Total no show the last 4 games.
Blair- 7/21 from the field in first 4 games and only had 13 rebounds in the whole series (51 minutes total). Never saw minute after game 4-- Grizzlies' size was a nice slice of humble pie for DeJuan.
Hill- 27% from 3- 40% from the field. His shooting percentages took a huge dip, which effected the Spurs overall offensive efficiency and was eating up on the defensive end by Allen, Conley, Vasquez and Young.
Neal -26% from 3- 37% from the field. Read above.
Bonner- 33% from 3- Was abused in the paint every damn game. Read last sentence of Blair's assessment.
McDyess- 41% from the field- Like Hill, Neal and the rest of the gang, McDyess' shot (mid-range) was very inconsistent. Can't complain about his defense, which was much better than Bonner/Blair.
Factor in Manu's game 1 absence and his broken arm, along with Tim's ineffectiveness on the block offensively and the Spurs, as a team, had no chance.
As you can see it wasn't just R.J and Bonner.
Last edited by MaNu4Tres; 07-06-2011 at 12:24 AM.
I agree with a lot of what you said, but outside of Game 2 against Dallas in the '10 playoffs, RJ has been horrible for the Spurs, and Bonner might be one of the worst playoff performers in Spurs history.
Neal, Parker, and Hill have at least had good series for the Spurs in seasons prior. Parker sucked, but he's done too much for the franchise to trade him merely for being poor against the Grizz. RJ and Bonner are just terrible playoff performers period. I also wouldn't be against shipping out Blair, and I'd rather the Spurs use Dice's contract to get another big in return as oppose to bringing Dice back who has just about zilch left in the tank.
Hill is already gone.
I don't think the Spurs were gonna beat the Grizz anyway, but it has to start with cutting out the dead weight. RJ and Bonner top that list by a mile.
I like your Farmar idea, although I doubt it will happen.
I agree.We shouldn't move the Big 3 just to dump RJ.
And yeah, everyone knows we want rid of RJ and he's on a horrible contract, so we have to come out the loser in some way on any trade to get rid of him. I think taking a chance on Outlaw fitting (the guy has length, athleticism, occasional streak shooting, hustle - he could thrive here) isn't much of a loss. Also, Outlaw's contract is 7m for 3yrs, RJ's 9-11m for 3yrs: http://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_jersey.htm
I think we'd do ourselves a service to give Outlaw a try.
Love Casspi, have said so for ages. He'd be great as a Spur.
I must have missed that.
Exactly. The Spurs as a TEAM played badly. You can't coach shooting during a game - that's something that is generally worked on during the off-season.
Let's be real here. Pop isn't the problem. RJ and Bonner aren't the complete problem. Hill, Neal, TD or Blair aren't either. It's the combination of folks playing badly that are. IF the Spurs had Deron Williams at the pt, Ray Allen at SG, Kevin Durant at the 3, Josh Smith at the 4 and Dwight Howard at center and they all played badly and lost, who's fault is it?
Agreed. While both of them obviously should have played better against the Grizz, they were never going to be difference makers on this team. Nor should they ever be expected to be.
Truth is Tim Duncan was outplayed, something that arguably had never happened before in a whole playoff series. Tony hit rock bottom form at the wrong time and Manu had a broken arm. It all starts and ends with the big three. Expecting from RJ and Bonner to be difference makers in a playoff series is unrealistic.
They are complimentary players, their game depends on the big 3's.They play well when the big 3 play well. If Duncan does not require double teams then they obviously will not be getting the open shots they are supposed to be making. If Tony and Manu turn the ball over almost every time they try to push the tempo and RJ never gets it in his hands when he runs, it's not RJ's fault.
Did anyone really expect the big 3 to play as bad as they did against the Grizz and Bonner and RJ to somehow play above them and lift the team to success in the series? Really?
They're both good complimentary players, badly underrated.
What series was that? Not to say that I don't love Neal because I most certainly do (esp. with his game winner in game 5) but those percentages aren't too good. It was his first playoff experience so the moment may have been too big for him at the time. With all that said, I think the spurs win game 1 if Neal is in besides RJ for the final 3 points attempts.
I guess you can take Neal out of the equation of having a good series. And yes, the team played poorly, but if you guys could pick any 2 players to drop from the Spurs roster I'm sure Bonner and RJ would win by a landslide.
Think about why that's the case.
All Bonner has to do is hit 2-3 threes a game. That's it. Everyone knows his D sucks and his rebounding is even worse. He can't even do that come playoff time. It's amazing that there are even a handful of people who still have faith in Bonner. The guy's nuts shrivel up come playoff time year in and year out. He plays like a deer in headlights.
RJ is the 2nd highest paid player on the team if I'm not mistaken. You don't give a $40M contract to a guy who isn't supposed to be a difference maker. I know it's unrealistic to expect RJ to average 16 points a game and I also agree that when the Spurs don't run, it's harder for RJ to make the most of his opportunities since his game works best in a run and gun offense. However, he spent all of last summer with Pop, rewarded with one of the most laughable contracts in the league, and played even worse than he did against Dallas last year, when him being the difference maker in Game 2 helped put that particular series back in our favor. He's just a horrible horrible fit for this team. I agree with the person who earlier said RJ would be much better suited for Orlando or Phoenix. I think unlike Bonner, Rj still has the skill set to be a decent player, just not with the Spurs.
As for TD not drawing double teams, he hasn't been able to draw doubles since 2008. No one expected the big 3 to play as poorly, that's a surprise for sure. But is anyone surprise at how badly Bonner and RJ have played? No, hence why people are so desperate to ship off RJ even knowing the Spurs will most likely get poor value in return. Bonner blows, but Pop loves him too much to trade him.
Imo Outlaw sucks ass and is a worse player and fit than RJ. But he is younger and has a smaller deal. Outlaw misses more games, has significantly less experience especially in the playoffs, is less versatile offensively, and doesn't make up for it on the defensive end to be worth it, imo. The few games that Outlaw played in the playoffs were pretty awful as well, at least looking at his averages and %'s.
Pop
Signed,
-- TJastal and Fabbs
. Don't forget obstructed view, and silverblk mystix.
Outlaw is definitely worse than RJ, I don't doubt that for a second. But I feel like if that's what it takes to shed RJ's contract, you do it.
It would be cool to see the name "Outaw" on the back of a Spurs jersey.
you've got to be kidding - players playing bad and the coach has no accountability? What is he there for - sarcastic remarks for press conferences?
Pop gambled on a flawed game plan and it blew up in his face - leaving him to scramble to get Tiago minutes. He might blame Manu's and Tim's injuries as main factors, but the move of Hill and RC's comments regarding moves show that behind closed doors the FO doesn't believe that the team was a contender as it was.
Pop's a good coach, but if you think the Spurs were prepared for the playoffs, you're kidding yourself.
Richard Jefferson
11.0 pts, 1.3 ast, 3.8 rpg, 44% 3pt, 47.4% FG
Travis Outlaw
9.2 pts, 1.0 ast, 4.0 rpg, 30.2% 3pt, 37.5% FG
I think it's pretty clear RJ is the superior player, and his 44% from 3 which was among the league leaders in the NBA is the bread and butter of SF's in our system, something Outlaw simply cannot do. People talk about how bad a fit RJ is, but they fail to realize Outlaw could be even worse. Factor in the additional year in Outlaw's contract and I think anyone willing to trade RJ for Outlaw would only be willing to do so just for the sake of getting him off the team -- even if the trade-off is a downgrade -- which is, to be sure, a mistake.
C'mon brah look at the bigger picture already.
Outlaw played with the frickin nets last season, a team in turmoil and transition, of course his numbers were way off his reg season averages. He's had several seasons of hovering around 40% (from 3pt) and I am betting he would average even better numbers in a stable system like the spurs just as Jefferson has. Plus he's a better passer & defender and his nuts don't shrivel up in the playoffs.
As for the salaries, who gives a about the extra year. He's making almost nearly 3m less per year which not only gives the spurs some extra flexibility to sign other players, but also makes it significantly easier for them to use him as part of a trade package (if need be). There's nobody who is going to take RJ at his current rate.
I actually really do. His four year contract is WAY out of Duncan's playing days. At that point, we need to burn the er down to the ground and start over. You don't want any long duration bad MLE contracts on your books. If you use the OKC model, clearing those and keeping your cap clean allows you to swoop in and grab first round salary dumps like Maynor or Cook.C'mon brah look at the bigger picture already.
Outlaw played with the frickin nets last season, a team in turmoil and transition, of course his numbers were way off his reg season averages. He's had several seasons of hovering around 40% (from 3pt) and I am betting he would average even better numbers in a stable system like the spurs just as Jefferson has. Plus he's a better passer & defender and his nuts don't shrivel up in the playoffs.
As for the salaries, who gives a about the extra year. He's making almost nearly 3m less per year which not only gives the spurs some extra flexibility to sign other players, but also makes it significantly easier for them to use him as part of a trade package (if need be). There's nobody who is going to take RJ at his current rate.
I guess you missed the point I made before about Outlaw's contract being easier to move, and especially the closer to the end it gets it doesn't continue to get bigger and bigger like Jefferson's
I guess I gotta explain everything to you twice.
Last edited by TJastal; 07-08-2011 at 07:32 AM.
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