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lol Kobe can't beat Dirk! Oh noesssss
Kobe and Gasol are both winless against Dirk in the playoffs. Just saying
Ali is winless against Holmes, so that makes Spinks greater than Ali. Pretty dumb ass theory there pal. People usually only throw in a third party when there's really no debate between the first two parties.
Lakers and Spurs have gone head-to-head eleven times: Lakers 8, Spurs 3
34-18 > 18-34
If you wanna go this route, at least use the Celtics. Just sayin'
Last edited by Ashy Larry; 09-06-2011 at 02:10 PM.
lol Kobe can't beat Dirk! Oh noesssss
Last edited by Jelloisjigglin; 09-06-2011 at 02:39 PM.
How many Jordan win without Pippen?
How many Magic win without Kareem?
How many Isiah win without Dumars?
How many Shaquille win without Bryant and Wade?
How many Bird win without Parish or McHale?
Erving didn't get an NBA le until Moses came.
How many Gasol win without Bryant ?
How many Robinson win without Duncan ?
How many Russell win without Havlicek and Cousy ???
You can go all day with that ........
How many Bonner win without Oberto?
exactly
How many Magic win without Cooper .......
Without Parish/McHale, Bird led his team to the best record in 1980.
Erving led his team to 3 finals before Moses.
Magic led the Lakers to 63-win season & the Finals w/o Kareem (90, 91)
Of course, what the above means is that Bird, Magic, and Erving had teammates that were unheralded. But they were the best players on those teams. Robinson instantly transformed the Spurs into the realm of respectability when he joined the Spurs. 56 wins vs. 21 the year before. Shaq was also the common denominator for all of his team's successes. The scorer/wing next to him were mostly all interchangeable - sorry. He was that good.
Kobe was barely making the playoffs w/o Shaq or Gasol. Couldn't win a playoff round. It's not that he couldn't win a le. His teams weren't even close to contending, which suggests unequal partnership, so to speak.
To be fair, there's only so much a shooting guard can do, no matter how great he is as an individual. Even as great as Kareem was statistically, there was only so much even he could do. Kareem didn't even play with one all-star caliber player during his first few years with the Lakers. Didn't come close to playing with someone as good as Lamar Odom.
Full credit to Kobe for his recent repeat les. Yes, Gasol was a big help. But Kobe won his way, those were his teams. As good as Gasol-Odom-(Bynum) were, they weren't peak Shaq.
really solid post ......
That's one small step for man, one giant leap for Lakerfan.
And the fact he mentioned about Kareem having subpar supporting casts with the Lakers until Magic arrived is one of the reasons I personally consider Kareem the GOAT. Give him a solid/all star perimeter player like Maravich, Gervin, David Thompson before the coke, and the Lakers win out the 70s, no question.
How many has Duncan won without Robinson and Manu?
How many has Kobe won without a legit big man?
How many has Duncan won without a top 10 player in the league?
4
Kobe: 5
tired old bag Merlin: 4
Don Nelson.
8
I have Cap either one or two. His resume is definitely on par with anyone's ...... he's often overlooked (funny to say) when it comes to the centers. People will go straight to Russell or Chamberlain and in some cases Shaquille and Olajuwon, but Jabbar was a beast from jump. Big O should always be in debt to him.
If he had a decent lineup around him in the 70s, I think they would have done some damage. 1977 was even a brutal year being swept by the Blazers and some thought with that team, the Lakers may have a chance.
How many has Mike won without a dominant small forward? We can do this all day. It really gets us nowhere.
who cares?
Has Kareem won without the GOAT PGs?
Has Magic won without a GOAT C?
hard-headed huh?
Cheese argument.
Duncan won 1 without Manu and 2 without Robinson.
Duncan won 3 without Manu AND Robinson.
"but.. but... Duncan needed a big man to win"
Manu isn't a big man.
"but.. but... Manu is one of the greatest to ever play the game"
True..
We should be arguing Manu > Kobe
Tim is above that.
Cheese just doing what cheese does.
Duncan won 0 without Manu and robinson
Don't tell me you haven't seen how I have attacked the myth Bill Russell belongs as a top 10 player of all time, he doesn't. Link is in my signature and it is in Spurs fans interests to rank him lower because it moves Tim up higher.
Bill Russell joined the Celtics in 1956-57 with 3 key pieces already in place. Coach Red Auerbach, and the top 2 guards in NBA history at that time, Bob Cousy, and Bill Sharman. (Both all time NBA top 50 at 50 years players). Along with Bill came rookie, and territorial draft pick, Tom Heinsohn, another Hall of Famer.
Aierbach's first year as coach, with rookie Bob Cousy, got them into the playoffs, something they had failed to do 3 of their first 4 years of existence. They made the ECF 3 straight years, but lost, 1953-1955.
Stats:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...cousybo01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...sharmbi01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...heinsto01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...russebi01.html
Joining the following year was another top 50 at 50 years player, Sam Jones.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...jonessa01.html
A few years later came John Havlicek, another top 50 at 50 years player:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...havlijo01.html
No team had the depth to oppose those Celtics. Mikan's Lakers might have, but George's career didn't last all that long, and he never played the Celtics in the playoffs, with or without Russell, although they came close a couple of times before Bill got there. Most of the success of that Celtics dynasty was due to Red Auerbach figuring out team basketball to utilize the depth they had. I am not even mentioning the other hall of famers that had roles on those Celtics teams. It was also an age of no free agency, you were basically stuck with the team you were on unless you sat out a year, and no one was willing to do that. A mercy trade was all you could hope for, and chances are, the Celtics didn't need new players, they had everything in place.
So, by the logic of Kobe detractors, Kobe didn't lead the 2000-2002 Lakers, Shaq did. Shaq was the main option, Kobe was number 2. Therefore Kobe is a sidekick. well, Bill Russell was never the main option in the Celtics offense, they had too many other options and many of them came in the fast break. Therefore, Bill Russell was a sidekick, and I invite anyone to debate this. Those Celtics wuld have won with any other big man, and most of you would have never heard of Bill Russell today.
If you want to see another example of how great a system Red Auerbach had, look at one other team, the 1971-72 Los Angeles Lakers. As much as many of you hate the Lakers today, they were beloved by nearly all back then, because of their constant bridesmaid status. Jerry West and Elgin Baylor were class players, and still worthy today of top 10 all time discussion, a place they once firmly held.
Ok, essentially, new Lakers coach Bill Sharman, who played and won under Auerbach, took Wilt Chamberalin and turned him into Bill Russell. Get rebounds, block shots, and toss outlet passes so Jerry West, Gail Goodrich, and Jim McMillian could run a fast break. That Lakers team scored, and scored a lot, and Chamberlain, a number one option his entire career, became a sidekick and won his second NBA le. Those Lakers set a one time NBA record of 69-13 in the regular season and won 33 consecutive games.
Check out Wilt's career stats, his last two seasons were played with Sharman as his coach, and he was a sidekick. He was good to play another 5 years at least, but he jumped to the ABA as a player coach and the old Lakers owner, Jack Kent Cooke went to court to keep him from playing. Wilt left basketball after coaching one year.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...chambwi01.html
If you want to think of Bill Russell as all that great, fine. But then you have to give Kobe his due as well, and his claimed side kick status is opinion only. The truth is, a full proof will likely show he wasn't a sidekick and I started it here:
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...8&postcount=73
Duncan won 0 without Manu and robinson
Duncan won 3 without Manu and Robinson.
...but, he still trails Kobe 5-4.
so?
Kobe won 5 without Shaq AND Gasol
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