One of the better top 100 lists I've seen (Dirk gets his due!).

[Jodelo]

Can Prime Dirk guard Prime Robinson? Of course not. He would put his nuts in his face after throwing down on him. Can Prime Robinson guard Prime Dirk? Of course he can. He's longer than Dirk, faster, quicker, more athletic... what have you.

[stretch]

Can Prime Dirk guard Prime Robinson? Of course not. He would put his nuts in his face after throwing down on him. Can Prime Robinson guard Prime Dirk? Of course he can. He's longer than Dirk, faster, quicker, more athletic... what have you.

thinking d-rob could hold dirk

duncan, kg, and a whole least of great defenders in the NBA hasnt been able to hold dirk for . what makes you think d-rob suddenly can?

oh wait, beacuse bruce bowen blocked dirk on that shot that one time

[stretch]

where do you rank diggler on an all-time list ?

#2

[stretch]

i don't see why not. You're telling me you'd really take kobe if you were drafting them, both in their rookie seasons? Remember, now... Kobe won't have shaq on his team, or a loaded roster. You're picking the player that will have the biggest impact.

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[TD 21]

So wait. Now Dirk's selfish, doesn't pass out of double-teams, doesn't create looks for Terry, and forces shots? Watch an one of the Lakers games and tell me he didn't enable the entire offense. And yeah, Terry had a good consistent playoffs. But the Spurs consistently had SOMEONE step up - often it was Jackson. Don't tell me that Timmy didn't consistently have help. Lots of guys stepped up huge. , Steve Kerr ended our season. I think this Mavs team was deeper than that Spurs team, but both had one major catalyst, no other all-star players, and got timely contributions from different sources and rode their superstar's backs. You're underrating huge, timely performances by Robinson (game 6 of the finals), Jackson, Parker, even Malik. They gave as much as a unit as Marion, Terry, Barea, Kidd, Chandler were able to give.

Major lesson from the Sloan/MIT conference: Kevin Pritchard and Mark Cuban telling the world that no professional team even considers win shares because it is one of the least useful and accurate stats in basketball. All I know is that team had Vernon Maxwell taking huge shots and shooting under 40%. I'm not a big PER guy.

You obviously lack basic reading comprehension. All I'm saying is, don't just throw out a random number and ignore the reasons behind it. Duncan didn't have consistent help and the majority of the help he did have, was mostly his doing.

Downplay the stats all you want, the reality is Olajuwon's '94 (and '95), as great as they were, have become overrated. Duncan scored just as efficiently, rebounded significantly better, blocked roughly the same percent of shots and had a far superior defensive rating, in addition to a higher PER and win shares.

Not by itself. But when a guy is capable of playing the most efficient high scoring playoff game ever, he's certainly in the conversation. Yeah, not a dominant defender. He's just one of the most unguardable players in the history of the game that's going to end with SEVERAL all-nba first team appearances, an MVP, and a finals MVP, and you claim there's no "credible" argument that he's even in the same category as... Barkley? Wade, who "impacted" his team to a 15 win season? Garnett, who so "impacted" a game in "so many ways" as to completely miss the playoffs in his prime? Results matter.

Most efficient at what, though? Shooting/scoring. He's sub par in almost every other area, which takes him out of the conversation with the aforementioned players. Barkley was elite at two things, Wade, for his position, is elite at everything outside of range shooting and Garnett was elite at most things and close, for his position, at everything else. Everyone talks about the lack of a second star post Nash and Finley, but Nowitzki's also had almost unparalleled depth surrounding him, thanks to an annual top 3 payroll.

That's like saying LeBron sucks because he doesn't have a post game. Or that Shaq sucked because he couldn't hit free throws. The difference between a top 10 offensive player all-time and a top-20 offensive player all-time is all the difference in the world.

The difference is, O'Neal was and James is an all around force. See, I don't dock Nowitzki points because he's a sub par rebounder, shot blocker, defender, etc. I dock him points because he's sub par at ALL OF THOSE THINGS.

That's why Dirk was making all-nba teams while KG was being left off them in his prime? KG had exactly one playoff run where he made it out of the first round before teaming up with 2 future HOFs in or near their primes. What's that? Yes. KG was left off an all-nba team in his prime. So I'm not sure where you're getting this "no one ever put them in the same class" thing - unless what you mean to say is that Dirk was recognized as clearly superior by 2005?

The awards are largely based on team success, hype, who's turn it is to get something, etc. If they weren't, the three best players of their generation, Duncan, O'Neal and Bryant, wouldn't have a combined 4 MVP's. Bryant made All-NBA third team in his prime once. Does that make him or Garnett lesser players? Did anyone think Nowitzki was on their level in the mid aughts? Don't pretend, after the fact, that that was the case. If you followed the league then, you'd know Duncan, O'Neal, Bryant, Garnett and McGrady, were considered the clear cut five best players in the league for a good stretch of years.

[stretch]

lol gnsf

[Jodelo]

TD21 so mad.

[Veterinarian.]

gnsf

[Veterinarian.]

Lol him ting on dirk before the 2011 playoffs and then getting owned

Why you ragin Brah?

[ambchang]

Sombody has to tell MavKrew the difference between and

[stretch]

anyways, I'll actually give my legit 2 cents, then im done, because its tiring arguing with gnsf

The reason I take Dirk before guys like Robinson, Malone, Barkley, KG, is because he did the most important thing that a #1 option on your team needs to be able to do... find ways to take over games and lead your team to a championship. None of the other aforementioned guys did that. Now were they capable of doing so? Possibly so. Did they have chances to do so? Most definitely. But not a single one of them succeeded. And they don’t have any excuses as to why they weren’t unable to either. They all had MANY chances to do so. They all played alongside championship caliber talent (KG probably having the least benefit in that department, with Malone and Barkley having the most benefit there).

Did those players have less holes in their game than Dirk? Most certainly. Dirk definitely has and had his share of weaknesses. But his biggest strength (undeniable offense), is bigger than any of the biggest strengths of the other guys. And when you look at all legit #1s that led their team to championships, the one thing they ALL had in common was an ability to take over on the offensive end of the court. Some also were strong defenders, strong passers, or strong defenders, but many of them also had weakness, and more than just one. But they could all take over a game offensively, and take pressure off their teammates. Dirk has proven he is considerably superior in that aspect to all the aforementioned.

If I’m building a team around one of these guys, I pick Dirk. Sure, run around crying “but he doesn’t play defense you stupid got!!!!!! ”. I don’t give a , because the deficiencies in his game, can easily be picked up for by other role players. But you can’t go around adding role players thinking that they will be able to consistently take over games offensively against elite teams in late-game playoff situations. That is something that cannot be covered up. As shown this year, adding Chandler made a HUGE difference in the success of the Mavs, and allowed Dirk to concentrate even more on what he is best at… being an unstoppable offensive force. But you cant expect to build around any of those guys, and add Michael Finley, thinking Finley can cover up for Malone’s inability to put a team on his back offensively. It simply doesn’t work like that.

If I had to choose between one unstoppable scorer, and 4 good defenders who can hit open shots but not a ton else offensively (similar to how the Mavs were built), or one incredible all around force with 4 good offensive players who are average to below average defenders (Dwight Howard and his Orlando teams), I’ll take the first choice, all day long. Defense takes much more of a team effort, while offense is capable of being handled heavily by a single player. And in crunch time, you need an elite individual scorer if you want a chance against elite defenses.

[FkLA]

for a moment i thought he had trolled me, but this truly believes dirk is a better basketball player than robinson ever was

[FkLA]

acting like kg or robinsons 25 ppg werent elite offensively because they didnt have a move in their repertoire as unstoppable as dirk's fadeaway in late game situations

throwing out the supporting cast argument when just last yr "dirks ty supporting cast with scrub terry as #2 " was the reason dirk hadnt rang

calling kg's teammates in minny or robinson's teammates in SA before TD championship level talent

comparing those payrolls to the Mavs bloated payroll

the irony in how much you give spurfan for being homers is alarming, considering how far you have dirk's balls down your throat

[stretch]

acting like kg or robinsons 25 ppg werent elite offensively because they didnt have a move in their repertoire as unstoppable as dirk's fadeaway in late game situations

throwing out the supporting cast argument when just last yr "dirks ty supporting cast with scrub terry as #2 " was the reason dirk hadnt rang

calling kg's teammates in minny or robinson's teammates in SA before TD championship level talent

comparing those payrolls to the Mavs bloated payroll

the irony in how much you give spurfan for being homers is alarming, considering how far you have dirk's balls down your throat

one thing shuts all of that bull the up











dirk rang

[FkLA]

that whole post and ur entire argument pretty much boils down to dirk found a way to ring and rob/kg didnt, 1 ring got!

the very same argument you mock 'gnsf' for, wat a got

[dirk4mvp]

spurfans can't stand hearing about how much of a choker Robinson was.

[DPG21920]

David was better than Dirk.

[Monostradamus]

David was better than Dirk.

The two men sat in silence, driving in the cold night. There interior of the car grew light, then dark, then light again with each passing street light. Light rock played on the radio, but the two men said nothing.

They pulled up to the valet stand, and got out of the car. The valet driver took the keys, and drove off the parking garage. The two men stood in silence, looking at each other in the cold night.

"Well, this is it."

"Yes it is."

They walked over the entrance of a brightly lit building. Lights were flashing inside. There was dancing, drinking, merrymaking going on inside. Yet the atmosphere outside was as cold and tense as ever. The two men walked past a large line of people, over to a heavyset Mexican man standing next to a rope. The two men looked up at the glowing neon sign above the door. They were here. The most exclusive club in the world. Club "Best Player On A le Team".

The first man approached nervously, and spoke.

"Dirk Nowitkzi, Dallas Mavericks."

The fat Mexican checked the large list in his hand, perusing every name to make sure he didn't get this wrong. Then he spoke.

"There you are, #2011. You're on the list, enjoy your night".

Dirk breathed a sigh of relief and walked into the club. A drunk touched his as he stepped past the threshold. The second man now approached, praying for the same result.

"David Robinson, San Antonio Spurs"

The gluttonous Latino man looked up and down the list. He searched for the name, and finally gave a response.

"..........nope, not on the list"

"What????? I've got to be on there! Check it again! CHECK IT AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!"

The Mexican checked the list one more time, carefully examining each name.

"Yeah, you're not on here, sorry."

The man hung his head and slowly walked away into the night. The Mexican lardass, in a rare display of compassion for those not on the list, tried what he could to lessen the hurt in the man's heart.

"Hey!" the Mexican said. "You aren't on this list, but check out the club down the road! It's called 'Second Bananas'. I'm sure you're on that list. In fact, I saw your friends Manu and Tony walkin in there without a problem!"

[Monostradamus]

that whole post and ur entire argument pretty much boils down to dirk found a way to ring and rob/kg didnt, 1 ring got!

the very same argument you mock 'gnsf' for, wat a got

The Ring's The Thing!

In a world of hype, Dirk just wins.

Believe.

I wouldn't trade Stevenson for Carmelo. There's a thing called chemistry.

[nowhereman523]

You obviously lack basic reading comprehension. All I'm saying is, don't just throw out a random number and ignore the reasons behind it. Duncan didn't have consistent help and the majority of the help he did have, was mostly his doing.

I understand the context. That whole team was Duncan. But you're downplaying Dirk's effect on the team and especially downplaying his effect on Terry. Both guys had other people step up, and the reason those guys were able to step up was because of what their stars were doing on the floor. Timmy is well above Dirk, and I think about the same as Hakeem historically, but all 3 guys single-handedly won a championship. The Mavs went 2-7 without him against mostly weak compe ion, and 55-18 + ring with him. He hit multiple huge shots down the stretch in almost every single playoff victory, with the exception of a couple of blowouts.

Downplay the stats all you want, the reality is Olajuwon's '94 (and '95), as great as they were, have become overrated. Duncan scored just as efficiently, rebounded significantly better, blocked roughly the same percent of shots and had a far superior defensive rating, in addition to a higher PER and win shares.

Win shares aren't a real stat, PER has some obvious holes in it. Mad Max and Horry straight up did not give Hakeem what Jax/Robinson/Parker/Bowen gave Timmy.

Most efficient at what, though? Shooting/scoring. He's sub par in almost every other area, which takes him out of the conversation with the aforementioned players. Barkley was elite at two things, Wade, for his position, is elite at everything outside of range shooting and Garnett was elite at most things and close, for his position, at everything else. Everyone talks about the lack of a second star post Nash and Finley, but Nowitzki's also had almost unparalleled depth surrounding him, thanks to an annual top 3 payroll.

I would rather have a player that can drop 48 on 15 shots, and go 12/14 in a playoff win, than a player who misses an extra 5 shots a game and turns the ball over an extra time every 2 games, but gets 2 more blocks or 4 more offensive rebounds. Basketball is about playing roles. Dirk plays his role at an all-time elite level.

An annual top 3 payroll that significantly overpaid guys like Damp, Lafrentz, Diop, Matt Carroll, Michael Finley, etc. etc. etc. No one on his team has been selected to an all-star game in 8 seasons. Kidd and Howard made it on as replacements only because of team success. The mavs overpaid for some guys, and routinely took bad contracts back in trades. For most of the last few years, they were paying $30/million a year for Finley, Dampier, and Diop/Carroll.

The difference is, O'Neal was and James is an all around force. See, I don't dock Nowitzki points because he's a sub par rebounder, shot blocker, defender, etc. I dock him points because he's sub par at ALL OF THOSE THINGS.

So you probably think Chris Webber was better than Shaq because he was a better passer and free throw shooter? This is basketball. Not a chipotle burrito.

The awards are largely based on team success, hype, who's turn it is to get something, etc. If they weren't, the three best players of their generation, Duncan, O'Neal and Bryant, wouldn't have a combined 4 MVP's. Bryant made All-NBA third team in his prime once. Does that make him or Garnett lesser players? Did anyone think Nowitzki was on their level in the mid aughts? Don't pretend, after the fact, that that was the case. If you followed the league then, you'd know Duncan, O'Neal, Bryant, Garnett and McGrady, were considered the clear cut five best players in the league for a good stretch of years.

at impacting the game so much your team is one of the worst in the NBA. Dirk's been better than 3 of the guys on that list since 2004-05. Just because you bought the hype doesn't mean the hype was right. And if you can't make an all-nba team in your prime, you have NO GROUNDS to be considered the 2nd best PF of your generation while another guy was going 37/15 on the road in an elimination game against the defending champions.

And if you're just gonna be spouting off about how Dirk was overrated for most of his career, and then talk about how these guys were "considered the clear cut five best players" then you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. You wanna know a good link that shows you where the same people you say "considered" those 5 guys the best players in the league NOW consider Dirk? There's a really good link at the start of this post that shows you a balanced system that weighs what many credible pundits now say.

You guys are really stretching here. The guy has it all. All the accolades, incredible numbers, multiple awards, playoff skins, and single-handedly carrying his team to a championship. Just deal with it. It's okay. Nothing against guys like Garnett, Robinson, Barkley, etc. Great players. But the verdict is in.

[TD 21]

I understand the context. That whole team was Duncan. But you're downplaying Dirk's effect on the team and especially downplaying his effect on Terry. Both guys had other people step up, and the reason those guys were able to step up was because of what their stars were doing on the floor. Timmy is well above Dirk, and I think about the same as Hakeem historically, but all 3 guys single-handedly won a championship. The Mavs went 2-7 without him against mostly weak compe ion, and 55-18 + ring with him. He hit multiple huge shots down the stretch in almost every single playoff victory, with the exception of a couple of blowouts.

No, I'm properly assessing Nowitzki's effect on the team. He essentially played the role of Olajuwon and Duncan on offense, but didn't have all of the other responsibilities they had. Statistically speaking, it wasn't even his best playoff performance and it definitely wasn't on the short list of the greatest of all time, such as Olajuwon's and Duncan's.

Win shares aren't a real stat, PER has some obvious holes in it. Mad Max and Horry straight up did not give Hakeem what Jax/Robinson/Parker/Bowen gave Timmy.

The bottom line is, there's nothing statistically that indicates either of Olajuwon's runs were better than Duncan's. And they're easy to compare, because they're such similar players.

I would rather have a player that can drop 48 on 15 shots, and go 12/14 in a playoff win, than a player who misses an extra 5 shots a game and turns the ball over an extra time every 2 games, but gets 2 more blocks or 4 more offensive rebounds. Basketball is about playing roles. Dirk plays his role at an all-time elite level.

An annual top 3 payroll that significantly overpaid guys like Damp, Lafrentz, Diop, Matt Carroll, Michael Finley, etc. etc. etc. No one on his team has been selected to an all-star game in 8 seasons. Kidd and Howard made it on as replacements only because of team success. The mavs overpaid for some guys, and routinely took bad contracts back in trades. For most of the last few years, they were paying $30/million a year for Finley, Dampier, and Diop/Carroll.

The others played their role at an all-time elite level, their role just entailed more than one thing and entailed far more arduous things. They didn't get to have someone else do the dirty work for them.

Overpaid or not, they've had elite depth for years, so don't pull the "poor Dirk" act.

So you probably think Chris Webber was better than Shaq because he was a better passer and free throw shooter? This is basketball. Not a chipotle burrito.

I didn't say you can't be very good if you're only elite at one thing. But when you're talking top 20 all-time guys, being elite at one thing and sub par at almost everything else isn't good enough to be mentioned in the same breathe as them.

at impacting the game so much your team is one of the worst in the NBA. Dirk's been better than 3 of the guys on that list since 2004-05. Just because you bought the hype doesn't mean the hype was right. And if you can't make an all-nba team in your prime, you have NO GROUNDS to be considered the 2nd best PF of your generation while another guy was going 37/15 on the road in an elimination game against the defending champions.

And if you're just gonna be spouting off about how Dirk was overrated for most of his career, and then talk about how these guys were "considered the clear cut five best players" then you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. You wanna know a good link that shows you where the same people you say "considered" those 5 guys the best players in the league NOW consider Dirk? There's a really good link at the start of this post that shows you a balanced system that weighs what many credible pundits now say.

You guys are really stretching here. The guy has it all. All the accolades, incredible numbers, multiple awards, playoff skins, and single-handedly carrying his team to a championship. Just deal with it. It's okay. Nothing against guys like Garnett, Robinson, Barkley, etc. Great players. But the verdict is in.

Look at the roster Wade had. Nowitzki has never played on a roster anywhere near that poor. Nowitzki wasn't better than any of them by 04-05. It's not about "buying hype", that was the consensus, as anyone who followed the league then would know. The awards are so credible that Duncan has zero defensive player of the year awards. 37/15 against two 6-7 wings.

From '06-on, Nowitzki has been overrated. Don't confuse overrated with not good, though. He was/is more than good, he was/is very good, he's just not as good as he's made out to be. We're not talking about where he ranks now, we're talking mid aughts.

I don't see how he "has it all", when he's above average at one thing. And the only "verdict" that's in, is you being a typical biased, overly defensive Mavs fan. Only a biased Mavs fan would think he's better than any of them.

[stretch]

David was better than Dirk.

no argument here from me

but Dirk is greater than David.

[stretch]

only spurfans, and "real talk" black dudes think dirk is overrated

pretty much everyone else appreciates what he does, accomplished, and his greatness

[ElNono]

NBA 2K12 got it right, IMO...

After leading the Mavs to their first ship: Dirk = Manu

[Proxy]

here's a bit of objectivity for you...Duncan is 33 and 22 in points and rebounds respectively...what rates him so high...ohh wait is it les won? If so then we need to go with the old tried and true:

Kobe 5

Tired Old bag 4

and just like that Kool dismantles the blogger who has really nice pictures on his blog...

How does a tired old bag taste in your mouth?