Best #2s of all time

[stretch]

I don't really get your rationale.

Kobe won 3 with Shaq, and 2 with a loaded frontline, while Duncan won one less ring with obviously less support, and yet it is obvious Kobe > Duncan? How does that work?

funny how suddenly team accomplishments come into play when debating Kobe/Duncan, but when its Dirk/Davey, its all about individual play.

oh, and if its about individual play and ability, Kobe >>>> Timmy. The thing that made Timmy so great is his natural ability to lead. There have been plenty of big-men as or more skilled than him in multiple facets of the game, but he knew how to step up his play when his team needed him most, and help his teammates be able to elevate the level of their own play.

[Giuseppe]

The thing that made Timmy so great is his natural ability to lead. There have been plenty of big-men as or more skilled than him in multiple facets of the game, but he knew how to step up his play when his team needed him most, and help his teammates be able to elevate the level of their own play.

Then his bag took on .

[m>s]

tim glued up the team making everyone perform better then they were supposed to do, dude was born to be a leader and deserved the credits for his team's success, but when speaking of individual play he is nowhere close to the greatest powerforwards and centers like dirk, bird, hakeem, shaq etc...

[stretch]

tim glued up the team making everyone perform better then they were supposed to do, dude was born to be a leader and deserved the credits for his team's success, but when speaking of individual play he is nowhere close to the greatest powerforwards and centers like dirk, bird, hakeem, shaq etc...

pretty fair assessment. as much as got spur fans keep trying to argue "Davey did 100000000000000x more for his team than Dirk ever did!!!!", you can make the argument that he was a superior all-around individual player to Timmy as well. But what made them different was Timmy's ability to take over games when it mattered most, and elevate the play of his teammates, things Davey knew nothing about.

[DPG21920]

Sorry, Dave > Dirk

[stretch]

Sorry, Dirk > Dave

[Killakobe81]

I don't really get your rationale.

Kobe won 3 with Shaq, and 2 with a loaded frontline, while Duncan won one less ring with obviously less support, and yet it is obvious Kobe > Duncan? How does that work?

Look Im not gonna on my team to elevate kobe. But Im with Stretch ...when it's talk about Lakers vs. Spurs... Bynum is overpaid bum, with man boobs and time bombs for knees. Gasol is soft. BTW, for some reason spur fans love Odom and dont get on him too much. I guess ... because until they drfted their rookie, they have never had anyone with a chance of matching up with him, so he plays well against the Spurs.

The 80's Celts and Lakers had "loaded" frontlines. 90's Pistons too.
The LAkers of the past 3 years had greath length and skill but with Bynum's injuries would hardly call them "loaded". Duncan had to win with less in some respect but let's not get carried away. Besides he had a HOF center (aging) for his first two rings. And 2 HOF candidates in the back-court for the last two.

I doubt Parker makes it in. But depends on how his career closes. The Finals MVP sure wont hurthis case. I think Manu is probably an 80% lock. He has ben the #2 on two le teams ...and a case can be made he has been anywhere from the 2nd best to 4th best SG of the past 6 years when healthy.

You cant have it both ways. Boosting Kobe's cast while downplaying duncan's. Kobe's has been better especially the past 4 seasons. But not like duncan was elevating scrubs to get his rings.

[stretch]

Look Im not gonna on my team to elevate kobe. But Im with Stretch ...when it's talk about Lakers vs. Spurs... Bynum is overpaid bum, with man boobs and time bombs for knees. Gasol is soft. BTW, for some reason spur fans love Odom and dont get on him too much.

this is the funniest ever

when spurfan is arguing Kobe being overrated: "Gasol, Bynum, and Odom are one of, if not the greatest frontline in NBA history!!! Kobe is arguably the 4th best player on the Lakers!!!"

when spurfan is arguing how the Lakers are overrated: "Gasoft, Andrew s Bynum, and Lamar Odumb are garbage, can be handled by Timmy, Splitter, and Blair, and the Lakers are basically Kobe and no one else worth mentioning!!!!! they would get swept if the 99 Spurs faced them!!!!!!"

got spurfans

[Giuseppe]

tim glued up the team making everyone perform better then they were supposed to do

Who. Who'd he transform?

[ambchang]

funny how suddenly team accomplishments come into play when debating Kobe/Duncan, but when its Dirk/Davey, its all about individual play.

oh, and if its about individual play and ability, Kobe >>>> Timmy. The thing that made Timmy so great is his natural ability to lead. There have been plenty of big-men as or more skilled than him in multiple facets of the game, but he knew how to step up his play when his team needed him most, and help his teammates be able to elevate the level of their own play.

A gerbil up your ass can see this entire thread is about the importance of teammates. As in Kobe having a #1 in Shaq.

[Giuseppe]

As in Kobe having a #1 in Shaq.

& 1 more NBA le than the bag.

[stretch]

a gerbil up your ass can see this entire thread is about the importance of teammates. As in kobe having a #1 in shaq.

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[ambchang]

Look Im not gonna on my team to elevate kobe. But Im with Stretch ...when it's talk about Lakers vs. Spurs... Bynum is overpaid bum, with man boobs and time bombs for knees. Gasol is soft. BTW, for some reason spur fans love Odom and dont get on him too much. I guess ... because until they drfted their rookie, they have never had anyone with a chance of matching up with him, so he plays well against the Spurs.

The 80's Celts and Lakers had "loaded" frontlines. 90's Pistons too.
The LAkers of the past 3 years had greath length and skill but with Bynum's injuries would hardly call them "loaded". Duncan had to win with less in some respect but let's not get carried away. Besides he had a HOF center (aging) for his first two rings. And 2 HOF candidates in the back-court for the last two.

I doubt Parker makes it in. But depends on how his career closes. The Finals MVP sure wont hurthis case. I think Manu is probably an 80% lock. He has ben the #2 on two le teams ...and a case can be made he has been anywhere from the 2nd best to 4th best SG of the past 6 years when healthy.

You cant have it both ways. Boosting Kobe's cast while downplaying duncan's. Kobe's has been better especially the past 4 seasons. But not like duncan was elevating scrubs to get his rings.

I agree in the context of NBA history, the 08-11 Lakers frontline wasn’t anything special, but taken in the context of 08-11, the Lakers frontline was far and away the best in the league, with the Celtics a distant 2nd during that period.

Duncan’s prime didn’t coincide with the primes of this best teammates. Duncan’s prime was 98 to 04, maybe 05. Robinson’s prime was 90-96, Manu was 05 to maybe 09, Parker is 06 onwards. It’s not fair to say that Duncan had 3 HoF teammates playing with him, just like saying the 04 team had 4 HoF on it despite the fact that both Malone and Payton were clearly past their primes. I would say 09 and 10 Gasol played better than 03 Robinson, yet Robinson’s career clearly was better than Pau. I would say 09 and 10 Odom had a bigger impact than 03 Ginobili and 03, maybe even 05 Parker, and again, over the course of their careers, I would say Ginobili and Parker are better than Odom.

Yeah, Manu is pretty much a lock (based mostly of his international resume), much like Gasol is as well. Parker is maybe 60% there with his international stuff.

[ambchang]

pretty fair assessment. as much as got spur fans keep trying to argue "Davey did 100000000000000x more for his team than Dirk ever did!!!!", you can make the argument that he was a superior all-around individual player to Timmy as well. But what made them different was Timmy's ability to take over games when it mattered most, and elevate the play of his teammates, things Davey knew nothing about.

The butthurt is strong in this one.

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

#1 – Kobe Bryant
This one is pretty obvious, nobody plays the second fiddle quite like Kobe. He opened up the lane for Shaq, he scored a huge amount of points off of Shaq doubles. Only if he could learn to pass the ball to the main man, he would be that much better.

Hey ambchang, I am not going to get into a debate with you over this because you have already proven you can't argue and fail at reading comprehension. However, your statement is nothing but opinion without proof. However, I did start a proof of its truth awhile back and so far no one has taken the challenge to prove it one way or the other. Certainly a Kobe hater like you would love to prove it to be true. No I am not trying to say people will believe opinon as truth. What I am saying is, become educated. Right now, your opinon is WAY ING OFFBASE. Kobe was not a sidekick to Shaq, but a near equal. Especially when it counted most, the defacto NBA finals (WCF and WC SF 2000-2002). Right now, the PROOF backs my opinion up, so have at it. Attack the message, not the messenger. As I said, I have no desire to debate you, you have no clue what's going on in arguments, you keep spinning meaningless tangents. Here it's simple what's going on, Kobe was, or wasn't a sidekick.

Check these out, where the proof starts:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...8&postcount=73

The video referred to can be seen here:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183819

[stretch]

The butthurt is strong in this one.

you are the one who picks and chooses, and changes your argument to fit your needs. id say thats the sign of a butthurt one

[ambchang]

Hey ambchang, I am not going to get into a debate with you over this because you have already proven you can't argue and fail at reading comprehension. However, your statement is nothing but opinion without proof. However, I did start a proof of its truth awhile back and so far no one has taken the challenge to prove it one way or the other. Certainly a Kobe hater like you would love to prove it to be true. No I am not trying to say people will believe opinon as truth. What I am saying is, become educated. Right now, your opinon is WAY ING OFFBASE. Kobe was not a sidekick to Shaq, but a near equal. Especially when it counted most, the defacto NBA finals (WCF and WC SF 2000-2002). Right now, the PROOF backs my opinion up, so have at it. Attack the message, not the messenger. As I said, I have no desire to debate you, you have no clue what's going on in arguments, you keep spinning meaningless tangents. Here it's simple what's going on, Kobe was, or wasn't a sidekick.

Check these out, where the proof starts:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...8&postcount=73

The video referred to can be seen here:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183819

You have continuously proved to lack common sense and love to argue that arguments are arguable.

Comparing players, in and of itself, is an opinion. There are no facts backing up Jordan being the GOAT, but it's a generally held opinion.

As for Kobe being a #2, the supporting arguments are around the entire Lakers offense being built around Shaq and not Kobe.

[ambchang]

you are the one who picks and chooses, and changes your argument to fit your needs. id say thats the sign of a butthurt one

You, with your post in its entirety, stated about the impact of double teams.

[Killakobe81]

I agree in the context of NBA history, the 08-11 Lakers frontline wasn’t anything special, but taken in the context of 08-11, the Lakers frontline was far and away the best in the league, with the Celtics a distant 2nd during that period.

Duncan’s prime didn’t coincide with the primes of this best teammates. Duncan’s prime was 98 to 04, maybe 05. Robinson’s prime was 90-96, Manu was 05 to maybe 09, Parker is 06 onwards. It’s not fair to say that Duncan had 3 HoF teammates playing with him, just like saying the 04 team had 4 HoF on it despite the fact that both Malone and Payton were clearly past their primes. I would say 09 and 10 Gasol played better than 03 Robinson, yet Robinson’s career clearly was better than Pau. I would say 09 and 10 Odom had a bigger impact than 03 Ginobili and 03, maybe even 05 Parker, and again, over the course of their careers, I would say Ginobili and Parker are better than Odom.

Yeah, Manu is pretty much a lock (based mostly of his international resume), much like Gasol is as well. Parker is maybe 60% there with his international stuff.

Offensively yes, we know Robinson's post-season struggles are legendary. But aren't you one of the guys that lauds David for his all-around play? Besides passing for Pau and Odom and Pau's post game what do they do better than an aging robinson. Bynum probably has better post-game even less than 100% ...but what besides length and a few dropsteps did Andrew have on David?

1. On one hand you argue David was this great player. Yes he was aging and past his prime when he rang, but you dont lose the HOF skills he has through age. Sure he lost athleticism, (which was his best asset) but it's not like Bynum on bad wheels or Pau on good ones were better rebounders or shot blockers than David was at an advanced age. And did not the spurs win on the strength of their defense?

2. Sure in today's NBA the Lakers have one of the better front-lines. But when you look at production, especially in the Finals. Odom's contributions fluctuate greatly, which is why he has never been an all-star. Parker and Manu made all-star games. (not the best indicator, but still). Bynum and Odom none and Bynum has been hurt or wildly ineffective in both Finals. Heck Cully even jokes his biggest contribution was taking out Perk. So really you are comparing Pau and Odom to David and later on ... Manu and Tony.

3. You are right not many teams have HOFers together in their prime. You have: the 90's Bulls (pippen/MJ) and Jazz (Stockton/Malone)
80's Celts (big 3) and Lakers Worthy/Magic (Kareem was past his prime)
2008 Celts maybe only Pierce was in his ... point is it is rare to getr HOF'ers in their prime together and when you do rings, usually follow.

Again I agree duncan is a great leader and who knows if Manu and Parker develop without Tim to lead the way (Pop too?). For that he deserves much props. But just like Pippen with MJ the talent has to be there for them to develop and Parker and Manu had plenty. Sure Duncan missed his prime with their "primes" ... but that doesnt change the fact Tim had a at least 1 HOF'er on each of his teams that rang.


Mj won 3 rings before Pippen his his, and Shaq won 2 before Kobe was close to his prime as well ...so what?

[ambchang]

Offensively yes, we know Robinson's post-season struggles are legendary. But aren't you one of the guys that lauds David for his all-around play? Besides passing for Pau and Odom and Pau's post game what do they do better than an aging robinson. Bynum probably has better post-game even less than 100% ...but what besides length and a few dropsteps did Andrew have on David?

1. On one hand you argue David was this great player. Yes he was aging and past his prime when he rang, but you dont lose the HOF skills he has through age. Sure he lost athleticism, (which was his best asset) but it's not like Bynum on bad wheels or Pau on good ones were better rebounders or shot blockers than David was at an advanced age. And did not the spurs win on the strength of their defense?

2. Sure in today's NBA the Lakers have one of the better front-lines. But when you look at production, especially in the Finals. Odom's contributions fluctuate greatly, which is why he has never been an all-star. Parker and Manu made all-star games. (not the best indicator, but still). Bynum and Odom none and Bynum has been hurt or wildly ineffective in both Finals. Heck Cully even jokes his biggest contribution was taking out Perk. So really you are comparing Pau and Odom to David and later on ... Manu and Tony.

3. You are right not many teams have HOFers together in their prime. You have: the 90's Bulls (pippen/MJ) and Jazz (Stockton/Malone)
80's Celts (big 3) and Lakers Worthy/Magic (Kareem was past his prime)
2008 Celts maybe only Pierce was in his ... point is it is rare to getr HOF'ers in their prime together and when you do rings, usually follow.

Again I agree duncan is a great leader and who knows if Manu and Parker develop without Tim to lead the way (Pop too?). For that he deserves much props. But just like Pippen with MJ the talent has to be there for them to develop and Parker and Manu had plenty. Sure Duncan missed his prime with their "primes" ... but that doesnt change the fact Tim had a at least 1 HOF'er on each of his teams that rang.


Mj won 3 rings before Pippen his his, and Shaq won 2 before Kobe was close to his prime as well ...so what?

You might have confused me with someone else, as I don’t believe I ever argued Robinson is particularly skilful. In fact, I think his entire career was built on his freakish athleticism. He never developed the offensive game of an Hakeem or a Duncan, simply because he was not wired as a center, but more of a giant SF. His main strength was his speed, and he relied on it to drive past defenders and get them into foul trouble. In fact, in Game 1 vs. Hou, he got Hakeem in early foul trouble (I think 3 fouls by the early 2nd quarter or so), and Tomjonavich was smart enough to switch Charles Jones on him with constant double/triple teaming. It turned out to be somewhat of a revelation that despite how many defenders you throw at Robinson, the guys around him won’t/can’t shoot, and this continued until the end of the series.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t consider Robinson particularly unskilful, as I think his jumper is mostly money, but when it’s off, and when the doubles and triples come, he doesn’t have much to fall back on (There are only a handful of guys who can consistently score on double teams in the low post, Hakeem and McHale, but even they would prefer to pass it out to the open man).

One advantage of Pau/Odom/Bynum is that you have three of them. Most frontcourts in the NBA today simply do not match up with that kind of size. If you put your best big defender on Pau, Bynum and Odom is going to score on you, but with Robinson, you can put your best guy on him, and not have to worry about anything else (well, except of course, Duncan). It’s the overall package of the Lakers frontline that causes headaches for all the coaches around the league. Look at the contending teams in last few years, they continue to overpaid marginal defensive bigs like Perkins and Chandler, because they all know they have to match up with the Lakers size. Heat is pretty much the only notable exception to the group.

On point 1) , I agree the Spurs won on the strength of defense, but so did the Lakers. Pau, Odom, Bynum, Artest/Ariza is simply better, talent-wise, than Robinson, Avery Johnson, Jaren Jackson, and Sean Elliott.

On point 2), my main argument is that Duncan’s supporting cast is not at their primes when Duncan was. Parker and Manu in 03 wasn’t anything special, and Robinson in 03 was pretty much playing at a Chandler level, not bad, still a defensive force at times, but it’s not all-star level talent, especially at a time when front courts were loaded compared to now.

On point 3) Agreed. No matter how dominant a player is, he needs teammates. Duncan is just easier to build around as he has demonstrated that he could win as the center of a defensive team on both O and D (99), the guy who carries the team (03) with a mix of young and old, and a defensive anchor that is the marginal #1 on offense (05), and a defensive anchor who shares offensive responsibilities with two other players (07).

I do not agree Jordan won 3 before Pippen hit his prime, Pippen was plenty much at his prime starting 91. And Kobe is hitting his prime starting 02 when the league changed all the rules to benefit perimeter players like him.

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

You have continuously proved to lack common sense and love to argue that arguments are arguable.

Comparing players, in and of itself, is an opinion. There are no facts backing up Jordan being the GOAT, but it's a generally held opinion.

As for Kobe being a #2, the supporting arguments are around the entire Lakers offense being built around Shaq and not Kobe.

No, you have no common sense, you proved countless times you want to argue about everything except what the main point of the argument is about! (And it takes a ton of elephants to drag you through a storm of your posts to point out what it's all about, and even then you have proved you have difficulty comprehending what the argument was!)

The entire Lakers offense was built around Shaq, and not Kobe? Well, you can argue it all you want, but it isn't true, therefore it is just your opinion. Therefore, every time you diss Kobe from now on, you'll simply have to admit to yourself, as much as you hate to, that Kobe was not a sidekick to Shaq.

I would say from 2000-01 to 2001-03 the Lakers offense was built around Shaq and Kobe since Derek Fisher was well behind as the number 3 scorer. Don't give me any crap about Shaq drawing double teams thus freeing Kobe, my video example starts the death knell of that myth.

Here I give you a perfect chance to prove once and for all Kobe was a sidekick but since you know it isn't true, you run for the hills. Typical.

[Killakobe81]

You might have confused me with someone else, as I don’t believe I ever argued Robinson is particularly skilful. In fact, I think his entire career was built on his freakish athleticism. He never developed the offensive game of an Hakeem or a Duncan, simply because he was not wired as a center, but more of a giant SF. His main strength was his speed, and he relied on it to drive past defenders and get them into foul trouble. In fact, in Game 1 vs. Hou, he got Hakeem in early foul trouble (I think 3 fouls by the early 2nd quarter or so), and Tomjonavich was smart enough to switch Charles Jones on him with constant double/triple teaming. It turned out to be somewhat of a revelation that despite how many defenders you throw at Robinson, the guys around him won’t/can’t shoot, and this continued until the end of the series.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t consider Robinson particularly unskilful, as I think his jumper is mostly money, but when it’s off, and when the doubles and triples come, he doesn’t have much to fall back on (There are only a handful of guys who can consistently score on double teams in the low post, Hakeem and McHale, but even they would prefer to pass it out to the open man).

One advantage of Pau/Odom/Bynum is that you have three of them. Most frontcourts in the NBA today simply do not match up with that kind of size. If you put your best big defender on Pau, Bynum and Odom is going to score on you, but with Robinson, you can put your best guy on him, and not have to worry about anything else (well, except of course, Duncan). It’s the overall package of the Lakers frontline that causes headaches for all the coaches around the league. Look at the contending teams in last few years, they continue to overpaid marginal defensive bigs like Perkins and Chandler, because they all know they have to match up with the Lakers size. Heat is pretty much the only notable exception to the group.

On point 1) , I agree the Spurs won on the strength of defense, but so did the Lakers. Pau, Odom, Bynum, Artest/Ariza is simply better, talent-wise, than Robinson, Avery Johnson, Jaren Jackson, and Sean Elliott.

On point 2), my main argument is that Duncan’s supporting cast is not at their primes when Duncan was. Parker and Manu in 03 wasn’t anything special, and Robinson in 03 was pretty much playing at a Chandler level, not bad, still a defensive force at times, but it’s not all-star level talent, especially at a time when front courts were loaded compared to now.

On point 3) Agreed. No matter how dominant a player is, he needs teammates. Duncan is just easier to build around as he has demonstrated that he could win as the center of a defensive team on both O and D (99), the guy who carries the team (03) with a mix of young and old, and a defensive anchor that is the marginal #1 on offense (05), and a defensive anchor who shares offensive responsibilities with two other players (07).

I do not agree Jordan won 3 before Pippen hit his prime, Pippen was plenty much at his prime starting 91. And Kobe is hitting his prime starting 02 when the league changed all the rules to benefit perimeter players like him.

1. "primes" are kind of hard to define. I was following your example more than my own. You kind of painted the picture that Manu and Parker's prime was after Tim's. Kobe did not truly hit his prime until the 3peat. Not that he was not running the offense, or instrumental but that was when his game became more complete. IF we are using your argument "well the perimeter rules benefited the players after ... " then wouldn't that APPLY TO EVERY SEASON of MANU's AND TONY's career? since they came in to prominence AFTER the rules were changed to benefit perimeter players? Especially tony who is one of the fastest players in the NBA?

2. What "loaded" front-courts did the Spurs face? How tall is Ben Wallace? How loaded are they if he can't score? Wallace, wallace and Prince provided great length (much like the Lakers) but loaded? the Lakers had Shaq Horry and a bunch of stiffs were they loaded? The knicks without Ewing ... were they loaded? New Jersey ran out Aaron williams, Kmart and that big white guy was that front-court loaded too? How about amare and diaw? Maybe Verejao and big Z is a loaded front-court?

Maybe they were more decent big men spread out in the early part of the decade but the spurs did not have to beat many "loaded" from courts to win the West or win the le ...

Look, as I said before Duncan was the man. I dont take that away but yall try to overstate things to improve his resume ...same with David but it's not necessary they are both great. This is not specifically directed at you, but the posts here in the forum lately.

[DMC]

Tim Duncan is more clutch from the 3 against the Suns than Kobe was.

[DMC]

2. What "loaded" front-courts did the Spurs face? How tall is Ben Wallace? How loaded are they if he can't score? Wallace, wallace and Prince provided great length (much like the Lakers) but loaded?

They beat Kobe, Shaq, Malone, Payton and insert role player here in the Finals.

Beating 4 HOFers with a HOF coach sounds loaded to me.

[ambchang]

No, you have no common sense, you proved countless times you want to argue about everything except what the main point of the argument is about! (And it takes a ton of elephants to drag you through a storm of your posts to point out what it's all about, and even then you have proved you have difficulty comprehending what the argument was!)

The entire Lakers offense was built around Shaq, and not Kobe? Well, you can argue it all you want, but it isn't true, therefore it is just your opinion. Therefore, every time you diss Kobe from now on, you'll simply have to admit to yourself, as much as you hate to, that Kobe was not a sidekick to Shaq.

I would say from 2000-01 to 2001-03 the Lakers offense was built around Shaq and Kobe since Derek Fisher was well behind as the number 3 scorer. Don't give me any crap about Shaq drawing double teams thus freeing Kobe, my video example starts the death knell of that myth.

Here I give you a perfect chance to prove once and for all Kobe was a sidekick but since you know it isn't true, you run for the hills. Typical.

LOL, after beaten to the ground with those 6 arguments you raised, you went back to say that arguments are arguable.

Kobe being a #2 isn’t a fact, it’s a general opinion. Just as Kobe co-sharing the #1 isn’t a fact, it’s an opinion. There are no arguments in the world that would quantifiably state that Kobe and Shaq shared the #1 or Kobe was the definitive #2, but it’s a generally held opinion that Kobe was the clear #2 all the way up to 2003.

Your video “evidence” was a snip shot of the game, and unless you go through each and every possession of how many times all the Lakers perimeter players opened up due to double teams on Shaq, and how many times Kobe created his own shot vs. benefitting from double teams off of Shaq, they are no prove, they are just snipshots of highlights taken out of context to satisfy your own agenda.

I am not exactly sure what you want to argue in this case, because you may have noticed, you stated explicated that you do not want to debate with me, but then you have continuously done so. What is it then? You want to talk about leading sentences? Is your whole point of this argument about you not wanting to debate with me? Stay consistent with your approach, either you are arguing against your own standards, or you are acting hypocritically against the standards you have set for yourself.

On a totally unrelated topic from your point of view, Kobe made 168, 187 and 137 FTM in the 01, 01 and 03 playoffs, while Shaq had 191, 203 and 121 (out of 12 games). Players like Fisher, Horry and Fox benefitted off of Shaq double teams, and a player like Kobe, while being able to create his own shot, also benefitted from it. I am not exactly sure where you would say that Kobe creating his own shot meant that he was a co#1. Pippen created his own shot, does that make him a co#1? And to pull out some weak videos claiming it’s some sort of proof is just purely laughable.