Ronaldo v. Messi: The Missing Rivalry

[TDMVPDPOY]

Di Maria stock is falling as quickly as his speed disappears... he has awful control of the ball. The guy is pure speed.

no , doesnt he look like an ostrich...

[TDMVPDPOY]

I think the article is spot on. Ronaldo these days is the guy everybody loves to hate, to the point that his game is becoming underrated.

About Messi place among all time greats I will talk only about players I have seen play at their best (lol Maradona 94 World Cup). At age 24 there's only 3 players I think are better than Messi and he still has a long time to change that.

Ronadinho - Definitely more talented than Messi both physically and technically. Than he decided to get lazy and fat which diminishes his career but still think he's better than Messi in his prime.

Zidane - Clearly not as gifted athletically as the others, but won everything at club and international level always being the undisputed best player on his team. Also played in a stronger era than today's football, with a lot more top tier players and bigger compe ion.

Ronaldo Nazario - Simply unstoppable, best football player I have ever seen. If not for injuries would be the best of all time imho.

Also note all of the above are World Cup Champions, not to mention continental championships, confederations cup, etc. So yes like it or not Messi will never be considered the goat if he doesn't go at the very least to a World Cup final with Argentina regardless of how many lolliga or CL he wins and that's taking it down a notch already compared to the other all time legends.

theres a few more i think could be ahead of messi....

[DAF86]

From an Argentina guy to another, I can definitely tell you didn't see Diego.

Just

Well, that's what I've been saying all along, I never watched Maradona play live during his prime.

I saw Maradona from 94 onwards, obviously past his prime. I never saw him make so many "goal passes".

[TDMVPDPOY]

i still have to take the maradonna wannabes b4 messi

im talkin about the guys maradonna said who could be the next maradona but failed due to expectations...aimar

[DAF86]

I watched both in their primes and Diego was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messi. Like not close.

I'm talking the player department here, not the personal side.

Diego was probably less of a striker Messi is, but he made everyone play. You could just play 8 defenders, 1 goalie, 1 striker and Diego and win (see Mexico '86, Napoli, even Italy '90).

Maradona also had eyes in the back of his head. His passing was simply unmatched. And his stroke on the ball on freekicks or longballs was just amazing. His control of the ball was also a sight to see. You could throw bricks at him, he'll always return a round ball.

Varski was either too young or has little memory, IMO.

I seriously doubt there could have been a player 16 times better than Messi.

What set Maradona apart was his dribbling pure and simple, that's what everybody thinks about when thinking of Maradona.

How do you quantify "passing" to say that Maradona's was "unmatched"?

It isn't just Varsky, there're lots of people including fromer players like Ardiles, San Filipo, Maschio, Guardiola, Xavi, etc. that have said that. Sorry if I take their word for it nono.

[ElNono]

I think the article is spot on. Ronaldo these days is the guy everybody loves to hate, to the point that his game is becoming underrated.

About Messi place among all time greats I will talk only about players I have seen play at their best (lol Maradona 94 World Cup). At age 24 there's only 3 players I think are better than Messi and he still has a long time to change that.

Ronadinho - Definitely more talented than Messi both physically and technically. Than he decided to get lazy and fat which diminishes his career but still think he's better than Messi in his prime.

Zidane - Clearly not as gifted athletically as the others, but won everything at club and international level always being the undisputed best player on his team. Also played in a stronger era than today's football, with a lot more top tier players and bigger compe ion.

Ronaldo Nazario - Simply unstoppable, best football player I have ever seen. If not for injuries would be the best of all time imho.

Also note all of the above are World Cup Champions, not to mention continental championships, confederations cup, etc. So yes like it or not Messi will never be considered the goat if he doesn't go at the very least to a World Cup final with Argentina regardless of how many lolliga or CL he wins and that's taking it down a notch already compared to the other all time legends.

tbqh, from those 3, probably Ronaldo is the closest to Messi, especially during his PSV/Barça days when he could not only score, but run like a mofo. That said, I don't think any of those are really better than Messi, IMO. All 3 tremendous talent and I have a lot of respect for each one of them.

Messi, much like Diego are very rare talent. The article is spot on in that due to their phisical appearance, they're truly freaks, and that might make it stand out more.

I heard Pele was the best, but I really didn't see him play.
Diego was the best I've seen.
Messi is right now behind him, IMO, but his career is not over.
Francescoli, Ronaldo and Platini rank here, three phenomenal players.
Then there's a lot of steps. You have standouts in specific categories (ie Romario, Bebeto, Van Basten, etc), or great all around players (ie Bergkamp, Ronaldinho, Xabi, etc).

[DAF86]

And just to wrap up, the World Cup is *IT*. It has little to do with talent. It has everything to do with national pride, and the fact that it's somewhat of a rarity (every 4 years). Every player only get to play two at their peak, sometimes only one. If you dominate there, you have set your imprint in history.

And what does national pride has to do with determining who's the better player?

We have made the excercise of thinking what if Messi would have been Spanish now let's think what if Messi or Maradona or Pele for that matter would have been born in New Zeland? Should have they won a WC to place themselves in the GOAT debate?

[ElNono]

I seriously doubt there could have been a player 16 times better than Messi.

I don't know about 16x, but easily 2x right now.

What set Maradona apart was his dribbling pure and simple, that's what everybody thinks about when thinking of Maradona.

You just had at least 3 comments from 3 different people that actually saw Diego play, telling you what Maradona did great was passing, vision, playmaking, leadership.
His dribbling was great when he was young and quick, but he was never the fastest guy out there.

How do you quantify "passing" to say that Maradona's was "unmatched"?

Easy. He made extraordinarily difficult passes look ordinary. Not the tiki-taka BS. If you never seen Diego, you probably never seen Bochini, who was extraordinary at that too. He was like what Manu is for the Spurs. He would manufacture a pass out of nowhere and sometimes his teammates didn't even know the pass was coming, because it was absurd. That's why as long as you had Diego in the pitch, you always had an ace that would manufacture something out of nothing and leave a player alone to score. That's why Bilardo could field 6 defenders at the back.

It isn't just Varsky, there're lots of people including fromer players like Ardiles, San Filipo, Maschio, Guardiola, Xavi, etc. that have said that. Sorry if I take their word for it nono.

San Filipo still has a commentator job?

tbqh, you can ask the rest of the world, and they'll pick Diego in a heartbeat.

Sorry, I see where it's much more dignifying for the country to pick a good kid over a prima donna, diva, coke addict, that also embarrass everybody whenever he opens his mouth, but as a player right now, it's no contest. I love Messi, I don't think he's that far behind, but he has a lot of work to do to catch up to Diego the player. tbh, I expect his court vision to improve with experience, I just don't think he'll just have the precision Diego had. Not a knock on Messi, we might never see a guy with that kind of feel for the ball ever.

[TDMVPDPOY]

xavi and iniesta 2 overrated players man....

whether its the barca system that makes them look good, or its the midfield stacked....

surprise no figo

[ElNono]

And what does national pride has to do with determining who's the better player?

I'm qualifying the importance of the World Cup over regional tournaments like the CL.

We have made the excercise of thinking what if Messi would have been Spanish now let's think what if Messi or Maradona or Pele for that matter would have been born in New Zeland? Should have they won a WC to place themselves in the GOAT debate?

No, I'm saying that winning a World Cup does give you a fair amount of bonus points in the discussion. Di Stefano is widely regarded as one of the best ever, but Pele and his '1000 goals' and '<whatever> world cups' is what people remember. Much like people don't remember much of Maradona in Barcelona but always remember Mexico '86 and Napoli.

[DAF86]

You just had at least 3 comments from 3 different people that actually saw Diego play, telling you what Maradona did great was passing, vision, playmaking, leadership.
His dribbling was great when he was young and quick, but he was never the fastest guy out there.

But still dribbling was what set him apart or are you arguing that? I'm not saying Maradona wasn't great at all those things. I'm saying that Maradona's presentation card was his dribbling.

BTW Messi is also great at dribbling, passing, vision and playmaking. And he may not be a vocal leader, but he's a leader on the pitch non the less.

Easy. He made extraordinarily difficult passes look ordinary. Not the tiki-taka BS. If you never seen Diego, you probably never seen Bochini, who was extraordinary at that too. He was like what Manu is for the Spurs. He would manufacture a pass out of nowhere and sometimes his teammates didn't even know the pass was coming, because it was absurd. That's why as long as you had Diego in the pitch, you always had an ace that would manufacture something out of nothing and leave a player alone to score. That's why Bilardo could field 6 defenders at the back.

Well, Messi is a specialist at making a through pass out of nothing, how many times per game do you see Messi just chilling in miedfield with the ball on his feet and sudenly delivering a perfect pass among the legs of many defenders with just the right speed and spin to give the forward the advantage.

San Filipo still has a commentator job?

tbqh, you can ask the rest of the world, and they'll pick Diego in a heartbeat.

Sorry, I see where it's much more dignifying for the country to pick a good kid over a prima donna, diva, coke addict, that also embarrass everybody whenever he opens his mouth, but as a player right now, it's no contest. I love Messi, I don't think he's that far behind, but he has a lot of work to do to catch up to Diego the player. tbh, I expect his court vision to improve with experience, I just don't think he'll just have the precision Diego had. Not a knock on Messi, we might never see a guy with that kind of feel for the ball ever.

I don't give a about dignifying the country.

I don't see how else could Messi improve his already great court vision and precision.

IYO What does Messi need to do to be on Maradona's level? Winning a WC would be a response I don't respect.

[ElNono]

But still dribbling was what set him apart or are you arguing that? I'm not saying Maradona wasn't great at all those things. I'm saying that Maradona's presentation card was his dribbling.

I'm definitely arguing that if that's your point. Diego could dribble like Messi very early on, but by the time he was at Napoli, he already was good, but not great.

BTW Messi is also great at dribbling, passing, vision and playmaking. And he may not be a vocal leader, but he's a leader on the pitch non the less.

I think Messi is a better finisher. Lio is not as athletic as Diego was (you won't see Lio trying a bicycle kick). Passing and vision is a fairly recent development for Messi. He's still growing at it. He's still far from Diego in that department, IMO.
His leadership is adequate, but Diego was the kind of guy that really set a high bar. The NT was everything to him. So, I'm not going to hold Messi to the same standards. You can be a great player without being a great leader, IMO.

Well, Messi is a specialist at making a through pass out of nothing, how many times per game do you see Messi just chilling in miedfield with the ball on his feet and sudenly delivering a perfect pass among the legs of many defenders with the just the right speed and spin to give the forward the advantage.

The difference here is, again, that this is fairly new for Messi. He's getting better at it. Diego just had the right feel for the right pass, and outstanding precision. Unmatched precision, IMO. Messi hitting the ball is probably a 7/10, Diego was a 9/10, IMO. Free kicks is something somebody pointed out too earlier, and that's definitely an area where you can see the difference in hitting the ball. And it's not the power shot like Gaynaldo or Batistuta, but the curve-dipping precision shot that Messi keeps trying now, but Diego had down to a T. If you remember Francescoli taking free kicks, that's what Diego looked like: a penalty with a few guys in front.

I don't give a about dignifying the country.
I don't see how else could Messi improve his already great court vision and precision.
IYO What does Messi need to do to be on Maradona's level? Winning a WC would be a response I don't respect.

He needs to keep improving and gaining experience. Diego was robbed of his speed a bit earlier than Lio. Diego always used to say he wasn't as quick already when he was in Barça, and his secret was to show the ball, hide the ball, show the ball, hide it, etc. When Diego lost that speed, he turned into a much bigger playmaker. He would try to pile up players and set a teammate free rather than try to make a run on his own. Messi will have to go through some of the same transformation.

tbh, I don't know Lio will ever be as good passer or have as good vision. I just don't know. Diego was one of a kind in that department, and was that good from the get go. When he was in Argentinos and then Boca early, his dribbling had everybody mesmerized, but he already had a great touch on the ball. That memorable far away goal against Gatti playing for Argentinos comes to mind.

But even if he can't improve as much, there's no shame. Diego was the GOAT (from what I've seen). He's being compared with the best of the best, and he's not far.

Messi is the 2nd player in my life I actually make a point of watching him play. He's special, no doubt about it. The 1st player was Diego

[TDMVPDPOY]

is messi better then riquelme? given t hat riquelme just like saviola didnt even get the chance to shine at barca...

[DAF86]

Messi was the leader "assister" last season in La Liga, I don't if Maradona ever led a league in assists but I digress.

[joshdaboss]

Let's asume Messi was Spanish, he would have at least one WC by now, maybe two counting 2006. Would he be a better player now for that? No, he would still be the same but people that go by team's accomplishments to determine a player's worth would have him on a higher note just for that.

Which is exactly how you're comparing Messi to Ronaldo. ROFL

Let's face it, Ronaldo is the best player in the world. All Messi has on him is club level success, which means . Neither player has won a world cup and Ronaldo scores more goals and is way more talented on top of that. Just look at how many times he is fouled, players can't defend him.

[joshdaboss]

You do know that you are in the minority when ranking those players ahead of Messi right? I had a Messi vs fat Ronaldo (probably the second best player I've seen in my life) debate not too long ago in another forum and came to the conclusion that there isn't a single thing that Ronaldo did on a field that was clearly better than what Messi does.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHA............AAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHA

Anyone on Earth would take prime Brazillian Ronaldo over ing Messi. That is one of the most hilarious things I've ever heard in my life. Absolutely no comparison in their resumes. 0/31 vs the highest goal scorer in world cup history. Enough ing said. LMAO

Ronaldo himself said not too long ago that Messi was the best player that he had seen in his life.

Like he's going to say he himself is the best player ever. How likely is that? Come on, this proves nothing. That's like when LeBron said Kobe is better than him when he was clearly twice the player.

[joshdaboss]

Pele is the only player I'd definitely put ahead Messi right now.

ROFL are you ing trolling? This guy is a bum, has done absolutely NOTHING in the world cup, the biggest stage in soccer... that is where players are made and exposed(Messi). To even put him in the same sentence with the all-time greats is a ing disgrace.

[MB20]

You also have to consider the fact that Diego and Messi played/play two different positions.
Lio is a scorer who sometimes turns into a playmaker. But he mostly finishes plays.
Diego was a typical "10", the playmaker, the guy who controled the tempo of the game.
He put teammates in scoring position all the time. He also finished very well.
About free kicks, Diego was simply extraordinary. You should research a little more about this if you think "he wasn´t that good".
Messi´s passing is very good, but Diego was superior in that department.

So, I have it like this:

Dribbling: Messi=Diego
Passing: Diego > Messi
Free kicks: Diego >> Messi
Leadership: Diego >> Messi
Scoring: Messi > Diego

I don´t see Messi being better than Diego in any category, except for off the court behavior.

[diego]

DAF:
The difference between me loving Maradona and you being a Messi homer is that I dont make ridiculous statements about him like

"I seriously, seriously doubt it to be physically possible for anyone to be as wonderful as Maradona, as often as Maradona, anywhere in the space time continuum"

I dont agree with people who prefer Pele, but I can certainly understand why they do and wouldnt dare try to disqualify him as a player, much less based on something stupid like my "serious doubts". Its even more ridiculous when you start off saying "I only rate what I have seen".

As for my age, it is entirely irrelevant. I grew up watching Maradona play, and there are only a handful of greats who dont have any video recordings to their name. When 80 year old men can remember things you did 50, 60 years before, you were great, to me its that simple.

I read the thread again and there is more garbage from you. You say you didnt watch Maradona play till the 90s, tell me then where did you get that early 80s barca was stacked, or Napoli for that matter? Its one thing to have other good players, its another to have reserves better than most teams starters like Barca does now. early 80's barca was a good team but not particularly strong, and I doubt you can name a single player without looking it up, and once you do you'll have to look up some more to see who was any good. Diego missed near half his games in his Barca stint. Napoli didnt start winning till they got some better players to go with Diego, but they were still nothing compared to the rosters of Juve and Milan.


European clubs have only recently taken away the limit on foreign players, only recently have they really been able to make their economic difference notable, until then it was unthinkable for a club to have a better roster than a powerhouse NT. even then, the argument that the CL has a better talent pool or a better strategic level than NT is silly. Anyone, be it a player, a coach, a fan, anyone will tell you that NT >> club, the intensity is on another level. for you to imply that messi's CL performances are worth more than diego's WC performances is just childish. and if you want to get into that kind of comparison, then its just as easy to say that diego's club performances are superior to messi's NT performance.

I think its great that messi has improved as a playmaker, but you are the one who is being unfair by comparing a 24 year old to a legend. let the kid play, how he plays, and do the measuring after.


this is the last I argue with you because you cant help yourself. but do yourself a favor and go watch diego freekicks on youtube, its beautiful.

[ElNono]

Which is exactly how you're comparing Messi to Ronaldo. ROFL

Let's face it, Ronaldo is the best player in the world. All Messi has on him is club level success, which means . Neither player has won a world cup and Ronaldo scores more goals and is way more talented on top of that. Just look at how many times he is fouled, players can't defend him.

Messi already won more than Gaynaldo at the NT level too

[DAF86]

DAF:
The difference between me loving Maradona and you being a Messi homer is that I dont make ridiculous statements about him like

"I seriously, seriously doubt it to be physically possible for anyone to be as wonderful as Maradona, as often as Maradona, anywhere in the space time continuum"

I have never said things like that, I get that you are a little angry but you shouldn't be making up just for the sake of arguing.

I dont agree with people who prefer Pele, but I can certainly understand why they do and wouldnt dare try to disqualify him as a player, much less based on something stupid like my "serious doubts". Its even more ridiculous when you start off saying "I only rate what I have seen".

I didn't argue anything, I just posted some facts that I didn't need to see live to know them. Just by doing a little research you can know that kind of stuff. Look how I never said aything about Pele as a player. Why do you not agree with Pele beign the best? Have you seen him play?

As for my age, it is entirely irrelevant. I grew up watching Maradona play, and there are only a handful of greats who dont have any video recordings to their name. When 80 year old men can remember things you did 50, 60 years before, you were great, to me its that simple.

I don't know what this has to do with anything, 50 year from now I will remember Rojas "vaselina" goal in la bombonera and he wasn't a great player.

I read the thread again and there is more garbage from you. You say you didnt watch Maradona play till the 90s, tell me then where did you get that early 80s barca was stacked, or Napoli for that matter? Its one thing to have other good players, its another to have reserves better than most teams starters like Barca does now. early 80's barca was a good team but not particularly strong, and I doubt you can name a single player without looking it up, and once you do you'll have to look up some more to see who was any good. Diego missed near half his games in his Barca stint. Napoli didnt start winning till they got some better players to go with Diego, but they were still nothing compared to the rosters of Juve and Milan.

Garbage? Again that's the kind of thing you don't need to watch live to know. Very few people have seen Russell's Celtics play live but everybody knows those team were stacked, well the same happens here. I didn't see those teams play but I know what players played on them and I know what "fame" they had back then.

European clubs have only recently taken away the limit on foreign players, only recently have they really been able to make their economic difference notable, until then it was unthinkable for a club to have a better roster than a powerhouse NT. even then, the argument that the CL has a better talent pool or a better strategic level than NT is silly. Anyone, be it a player, a coach, a fan, anyone will tell you that NT >> club, the intensity is on another level. for you to imply that messi's CL performances are worth more than diego's WC performances is just childish. and if you want to get into that kind of comparison, then its just as easy to say that diego's club performances are superior to messi's NT performance.

Oh noes, the intensity. Look, the only thing I said is that the level of teams and play is superior on the CL than in the WC and every person capable of doing some reasoning knows this. I don't know why you keep implying things that I haven't said, when did I say that Messi's CL's performances are worth more than Maradona's WC performances?

I think its great that messi has improved as a playmaker, but you are the one who is being unfair by comparing a 24 year old to a legend. let the kid play, how he plays, and do the measuring after.

At age 24 he has done more than most legends.

this is the last I argue with you because you cant help yourself. but do yourself a favor and go watch diego freekicks on youtube, its beautiful.

I have done that already, Maradona is by far the player I have seen the most of in youtube.

And I'm sorry but it's not my problem that you get mad when arguing on the internet.

[DAF86]

You also have to consider the fact that Diego and Messi played/play two different positions.
Lio is a scorer who sometimes turns into a playmaker. But he mostly finishes plays.
Diego was a typical "10", the playmaker, the guy who controled the tempo of the game.
He put teammates in scoring position all the time. He also finished very well.
About free kicks, Diego was simply extraordinary. You should research a little more about this if you think "he wasn´t that good".
Messi´s passing is very good, but Diego was superior in that department.

So, I have it like this:

Dribbling: Messi=Diego
Passing: Diego > Messi
Free kicks: Diego >> Messi
Leadership: Diego >> Messi
Scoring: Messi > Diego

I don´t see Messi being better than Diego in any category, except for off the court behavior.

Diego in Napoli and in the '86 WC played as a forward.

[ElNono]

He really, really didn't play 'forward', unless you're saying guys like Xavi or Riquelme are forwards. He played the old classic Argentina #10, who sat between the midfielders and the (normally lone) striker. In Mexico '86, the lone guy up top was Valdano. In Napoli, Careca. In Italy '90 Caniggia.

Teams don't really play that way as much anymore, because that classic #10 is an almost extinct player. People complain that Messi has to come back down too much when he plays in the NT to get the ball, but that's exactly where Diego would pick it up. Messi is just a different player with a different role in Barça.

[Muser]

How do you know Pele was the best? Have you seen him play? Or do you go by stats alone?

The 1.000 goals thing is completely unproven and you have to remember that back in the days games had an average of more than 5 goals each.

Then is the three WCs thing. Which first and foremost is a team accomplishment and second not everybody knows what's the deal with Pele' three WCs.

In the first one he won he was 17 years old, wasn't the best player on the team, in the second one during Pele's prime he got injured and practically didn't play in that tournament yet Brazil having a stacked team back then won anyways and in the third one he was past his prime and again wasn't the best player on his own team.

I grew up watching tapes my dad had of the Brazil teams in the 50's and 60's, and of all the players i've seen play he was the best. Just my opinion.

[ALVAREZ6]

is messi better then riquelme?

just shut up already you wanker