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Tim got old, Bruce retired, Bonner got traded for, Blair got drafted, and sucks; it ain't hard to tell.
1. Age. The Spurs are trying to use an aging Duncan to anchor the defense. He just doesn't have the explosiveness that he once had. Also, not being able to find a big man to play next to Duncan has hurt as well. I believe that if the Spurs would have been able to find one, then the loss of Bowen wouldn't have had a significant effect.
2. Start Duncan and Splitter together. I think that Blair's energy would be better served by coming off the bench. Also, give more playing time to the guys who work hard on the defensive end.
3. They were ranked around 12 or so last year, and I think that's plausible this year. While their defense seems to be trending downward, I think that 26 is not how they really rank. I think it can be attributed to the shortened training camp. I think we'll see the defense pick up more throughout the season.
4. I honestly don't know. This is going to be a weird season. There's already strange occurrences happening. Like the fact that on the 3rd night of 3 games in a row the teams had been undefeated. (I don't know if they still are or not.) If the Spurs are able to get in to the playoffs, then I believe they will have a chance to win it all. It doesn't matter where they rank statistically.
Tim got old, Bruce retired, Bonner got traded for, Blair got drafted, and sucks; it ain't hard to tell.
Timvp in rare form this season
Didn't realize the defense was so bad statistically, watching them play, I actually thought we were paying a better brand of defense this year compared to last year
Here's a chart I found that kind of sums it up.
All you need to know:
Matt "the Assassin" Bonner
Year MPG
07-08 - 12.5 mpg
08-09 - 23.8 mpg
09-10 - 17.9 mpg
10-11 - 21.7 mpg
The D is struggling cuz we don't have anyone intimidating in the paint. We don't have too many threats to block/alter shots outside of Duncan. Duncan's not the same player he used to be and is a step behind on his rotations. Since Bruce and Jacque Vaughn left, our on ball defense on guards haven't been good at all. Ginobili is solid, but isn't healthy at the moment. TP can't guard anybody. Leonard has shown promise but is still a rookie. Our team D and rotations should be able to improve as the season progresses but will always have key mismatches due to individuals.
And all this starts at the top. Pop and the FO
Two pages of virtually the exact same take. I can't think of any other issue that Spurstalk is as unified about.
Well, .1) Pop turning into Don Nelson and giving up on his own philosophy of defense first, and his stubbornness just because he's questioned rather than what's best for the team. He lost his damn mind.
2) Cutting Bruce Bowen. Come on man, at least keep him in the FO or on the sidelines as a coach, but of course Pop holds grudges and he's the decider, and he decided that Bruce should go.
3) Horrible FO decisions, not recruiting players who are defensive minded (a BIG included) as in years past....waaaaaay past. And letting go of Scola (again a personal decision on Pop because Scola called him out on his lies in the media).
4) Pop
5) Pop
6) Pop
7) Pop
8) Pop
9) Pop
10) Pop
Edit: adding a #11
11) the MEDIA! for being little pussies and not pressing the issue for either being stupid and agreeable with the horrible decisions of Pop (gullible assholes), or for being afraid of asking the real tough questions, and if you read my post in another thread, one producer from a local news station already admitted to me it was the ladder!
Media
P.S. If someone knows how to get these graphs to Pop, please do, and include a note that points out how defense declined suddenly when he cut Bruce and when he decided to back-stab himself and throw "defense first" into the garbage can. Ask him how that decision is going for him when looking at the graph and our success since then.
This is it...great post...
I've been saying this for the last year...
Pop is done....has been done for awhile...
Timmy should only be playing the first 5 to 6 minutes at the start of the game (not 10 or 11 minutes in a row)...then come back in at the start of the 2nd qtr...play --3 to 4 -- minutes...sit again...play last 2 minutes before the half...then do this in the 2nd half again...
Tiago and Leonard---at least 35 minutes---no less...
Bonner....
me...
who am I kidding?
Every crappy season that goes by provides more ammo to the "Of course he won 4 les. Look who was on the team." argument.
ya' gotta admit...it is a pretty solid argument...
Honestly, I was slow to turn on Pop. But I'm a believer that we could be talking about a ring or two more with a better coach. Just like a ring or two less with a worse coach.
good stuff man. arent you a troll? lol jk i agree with this 100% wings need to be able to force guys to go base line right into a waiting big.
Tim's playing less minutes, and hasn't been a flat out dominant defender. Father Time. The minutes he's not playing replaced by less effective defensive players(Not many players at Duncans level).
Other players would've been OK with Prime Duncan, but aren't able to provide defensive help(Duncan could've carried them in times past). Standard arguments in place of Bonner and Blair.
The type of guy we need isn't going to be easy to get, and the team lacks depth at Big spots, and premium defensive perimeter players are gone(Bowen retired, Manu injured).
If we could get a good #2 defensive big, we could return, but hard to see that with limited trade assets, particularly in terms of salary to match contracts.
If you go looking for the reason(s) for the big change in defensive rank by searching the Spurs' stats, you are going to come away scratching your head. That's because it's not all there. You can't look at the Spurs defense in a vacuum, especially when you're talking about rank.
Points Allowed Per 100 Possessions
A few questions for the lovely denizens of SpursTalk:
1. Who or what is to blame for the decline in defense in San Antonio?
Look at the graph of Points Allowed Per 100 Possessions, and the years between 2004 and 2008, which is where the HUGE decline in the Spurs' defense occurred. One thing you notice is that the movements in the Spurs' graph are similar to the league-average graph, just more pronounced. 2004 was the Spurs best season, in terms of points allowed. In the following off-season, the league implemented new rules regarding hand-checking, blocking fouls, and defensive 3 seconds. The rules were changed to open up offense, and the graph bears that out. The points allowed increased across the league. But the changes had more of an impact on the Spurs, because of the way they played defense. Since then, there have also been several "rule clarifications" for officials (like the way they used the restricted arc), that had similar effects on the league, and on the Spurs. The changes affected everybody, but they had more of an impact on the Spurs, and helped close the gap between them and other teams.
With the current rules (and the current use of the rules) I believe that it is no longer possible to play defense the way the Spurs did in 2004. That has to account for a portion of the difference between then and now.
One other thing that has closed the gap is the fact that a lot of teams were forced to start paying attention to defense. Some of the Spurs change in rank has to do with the fact that the other teams got better at defense.
That doesn't explain everything, obviously. But once you eliminate some of those effects, it's a lot easier to find the other differences in the Spurs' defense within the stats. Things like decline in Duncan's minutes, the decline in Duncan, the lack of a second legitimate big. I think one of the biggest things to affect that particular graph (Points/100 Poss.) is the amount of second chance points the Spurs give up now. Since an offensive rebound doesn't start a new possession, it means that teams get a lot fewer dry possessions than they used to. You can see it in the decline in Tim's rebounding numbers.
One thing is for sure - the Spurs aren't going to see much defensive improvement by doing the same old things with the same old people. If they really want to improve this season, they are going to have to commit to it - and that means trading somebody. It won't be popular.
You make good points but one thing you're overlooking or not commenting on is the divergence of the Spurs correlation with the rest of league starting in 2008 or so. From 1998 to 2007, there was a strong positive correlation between the Spurs and the league. But even though new rules have been put in place to open up the offense, the league trend in points allowed per 100 possessions is heading down. However, the Spurs is continuing to rise. To me, it indiciates a severe problem with either the core personel (which everyone has commented on) and/or the coaches' lack of being able to adapt to a new situation (whether it's due to different players, different rules, or a predominant change in thinking by the other teams).
Points Allowed Per 100 Possessions
A few questions for the lovely denizens of SpursTalk:
1. Who or what is to blame for the decline in defense in San Antonio?
2. What can the Spurs do to improve their defense?
3. How good can this team be defensively?
4. How good do you think they'd have to be to win a championship this year?
Last edited by cantthinkofanything; 01-11-2012 at 04:43 PM.
A good step towards correcting it would be starting the best defenders. You can't allow teams to get easy looks early otherwise they will get hot. I think for now that means start Green and Splitter. Play aggressive on the perimeter and force guys to shoot over TD and Splitter.
1. Pop and Buford. Only an idiot or an unabashed front office apologist would think otherwise. Then again, that's basically the same thing.
2. Acquiring an impact or potential impact defender at power forward, who's worthy of logging around 30 mpg. They can do this, or at least attempt to do so, by offering Blair, Anderson and their 1st.
3. If they do that, they could probably be in the 6-8 range, because there actually are a number of solid defensive pieces. And by making the trade I suggested, they'd be getting rid of one of their worst defenders and further limiting the minutes of another.
4. They'd have to at least be in the 6-8 range. The fact that they're a lethal offensive team at full strength could potentially make up for them being slightly under elite defensively.
Here's a chart I found that kind of sums it up.
A few questions for the lovely denizens of SpursTalk:
1. Who or what is to blame for the decline in defense in San Antonio?
Popovich and his lineups this year. Also, the roster in general as designed by Pop and the FO.
2. What can the Spurs do to improve their defense?
Start Splitter, sign a defensive minded big and reduce Matt Bonner's minutes to 5-8 max during situational 3 point shooting needs.
3. How good can this team be defensively?
If Splitter starts and gets 30+ minutes, Leonard's minutes are increased to 20-30 and Manu comes back healthy, we could be top 15 but that is about the ceiling considering Parker and Jefferson are defensive liabilities and Duncan cannot carry the interior defense by himself anymore.
4. How good do you think they'd have to be to win a championship this year?
Top 5 in defense, to go along with being top 10 in offensive efficiency would make them a contender but it would take major roster moves to make that happen.
What is the correlation between the "space the floor" method and the decline in defense? Maybe it's just me but it seems that the rise of the Bonner era may have been a catalyst for the rise of the defensively inept era.
When we had two bigs in the paint and one solid defender outside, we were a difficult team to beat. We're currently going through what we went through with DRob before Timmy got here. There was never a real solid presence nearby. Then came the perfect storm of tough, gritty perimeter defenders with two talented bigs inside (Dallas Mavericks 2011 anyone?) and the Spurs won in 99, then 2003. Because of the two talented perimeter defenders (Bowen and whoever), the Spurs were able to continue winning even with mediocre talent supporting Tim.
One Tyson Chandler would turn this team around as it did in Dallas. I know that the FO is looking under every rock, but if they want to remain compe ive, they need to bring in as many no-name bigs as possible and give them all a shot. Maybe we can find our next Gary Neal, defensively speaking.
1. If success starts at the top, failure shouldn't be any different, especially when it's the magnitude of what you posted here. While there are factors that might diminish the blame somewhat (contracts making it more difficult to retool the roster, attracting free agents, etc), there are also flat out bad decisions (Scola, re-upping soft and poor defensive players like Bonner/RJ, stopping accountability on the defensive end, etc).
2. The first order should be to return defensive accountability. You can twist and turn your roster all you want, but if your coach keeps watching a layup parade and doesn't lit up/yanks/reduces minutes/flat out trades the suspects, then why would anybody put forth the effort? I think that is an important first step.
Then, there will need to be some roster changes, simply because some guys just really have no idea how to defend, period, and because some of our best defenders are getting old, and need some help.
3. Bottom top 10 if Leonard turns out to be a solid contributor and Splitter ends up playing about 30mpg. They're big ifs, so a more realistic scenario would be middle of the pack like last season.
4. Top 3. I was going to say top 5, but the reality is that the wear on Tim is only gonna get worse as the season goes on, and for a realistic playoff run his defensive production is only going to get worse unless he gets substantial help. That means the defensive quality overall really needs to be top notch. I really miss those days, tbh.
This is the mirror-image of the Matt Bonner's minutes "ascendancy" graph . . .Field Goal Percentage Allowed - Rank
(I admit I'm a scapegoater.
Splitter is not Tyson Chandler but can be effective if given minutes. I still can't figure out why Pop doesn't embrace playing TD and Splitter together. Everytime I've seen them playing together the defense has been quite solid.
ClassicHere's a chart I found that kind of sums it up.
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