Can someone explain why Bonner is disliked?

[Mugen]

It's gotta be the hair.

[Blake]

Bonner's overall playoff performance in SA has been dismal, but I think his performance in last year's playoff series against the Grizz while less than awesome, was still better than dismal.

Last year, all the Spurs generally sucked, the front line match ups were terrible, and Matt hit a few big threes in the 4th quarter (game 1) that went largely unnoticed because the Spurs lost.

The Spurs could win a le with Bonner being tops in +/- and the haters will still hate, the way it hurts AJ haters to look at the #6 hanging in the rafters.

Is what it is.

[Splits]

+1

Funny thing is, the Memphis Grizzlies not only took him out of every game, they did it using an assortment of guards so they could continue to stuff the paint with bigs.

I can only imagine that Lionel Hollins must have spent many nights leading up to the playoffs game planning every little detail on how to shut down Pop's
little 3-ring circus/dog and pony show.

This is just false. I can't remember who wrote the game grades for the Memphis series last year (they did a fantastic job, btw) but I recall that almost every game Bonner got above-average grades on the defensive end where the matchups were frankly horrible. It is a myth and huge fallacy on this site that Bonner was abused on the defensive end in the Memphis series last year. It just isn't true. Once the ST search feature is working again, I'll go pull up all the game grade threads and prove the point (again). But just know that anyone who says Bonner was the major defensive liability in last year's Memphis series is not speaking the truth.

[TJastal]

This is just false. I can't remember who wrote the game grades for the Memphis series last year (they did a fantastic job, btw) but I recall that almost every game Bonner got above-average grades on the defensive end where the matchups were frankly horrible. It is a myth and huge fallacy on this site that Bonner was abused on the defensive end in the Memphis series last year. It just isn't true. Once the ST search feature is working again, I'll go pull up all the game grade threads and prove the point (again). But just know that anyone who says Bonner was the major defensive liability in last year's Memphis series is not speaking the truth.

I'm glad you support Bonner's tough playoff defense and I defenitely look forward to reading all about it. But the post you clicked on addresses the grizzlies gameplan to take away Bonner's 3pt looks, which they did quite effectively, and often using much smaller players.

Idiot.

[Splits]

I'm glad you support Bonner's tough playoff defense and I defenitely look forward to reading all about it. But the post you clicked on addresses the grizzlies gameplan to take away Bonner's 3pt looks, which they did quite effectively, and often using much smaller players.

Idiot.

Proving once again why, after 6400+ posts, you're still GN.

[Drz]

Anyways, thanks for responding and hopefully you respond again

Just responding to say I'm done with this thread.

[portnoy1]

My problem with Bonner is much deeper than defense and rebounding. To explain in years past Tim Duncan has always had a capable defensive partner (Rasho, Nazr , Fab ,Horry....). Those guys would provide help defense on drives, solid and consistent rebounding and would not need help in guarding post players. Add to that fact every body said that Bowen lost a major step in the 08-09 season. Truth is, he had gradually been losing a step year after year. What screwed him up was lack of help from the bigs when he got beat (something he always had to work with From Robinson to Oberto). And that's why from 07-08 to 08-09 When the Spurs went from Starting Oberto to Bonner their was a noticeable drop off in Bowens production.

Second, the Spurs have always had a pretty quick trigger in getting rid of shooters that didn't produce in the Playoffs no matter how good they did in the regular season. Examples : Hedo Turkoglu, Ime Udoka and last Roger Mason Jr. who a few game winners in the regular season. All of them were gone by the time their contract ran out with no chance of the Spurs resigning them to solid contract.

Bonner however, had two legit seasons in which he got minutes and failed miserably in the playoffs (09' and 10' playoffs). The Spurs sign him to a 4yr deal worth $15million. The biggest contract he has ever had after two subpar playoff outings.

Yes Bonner can't do alot of things, but what bothers me about Bonner is everytime I see him on the floor it reminds me that he represents alot of what the Spurs were against in the championship days (being soft and not mentally tough). He represents how this proud organization went from being hard nosed and disciplined to being soft and not looking at the big picture.

[buujness]

Very true!


Very false! And very small-minded. Yes, baseball stats are easier to interpret due to the more individual nature of the sport, but that does NOT imply they are not indicative of the quality of the player. I wonder if you think that because you struggle to understand them, and your feeble mind thinks "gosh, I can't handle this, I'll just bash them! Dem der stats r bad!!!"



You clearly pulled this out of your ass. There is no supporting evidence for this. I'm sure you'll trot out the "I watch the games!" line, which any respectable analyst would know is bull .

Really? Watching the games is bull ? Wow, I suppose that I should just completely bow down before the almighty Algorithms, and ignore everything that my senses and logic tell me.

I like how you agree with me when I say that stats don't tell the whole story, and yet the only thing that you use to back up your argument is stats. Funny.

I won't argue with you when you say that Bonner's advanced metrics are off the charts; they clearly are. His regular season +/- is flat-out ridiculous. My point is that those numbers really don't give you a clear picture of his impact. In theory, having a PF that can shoot 3s at a 45% clip is amazing, because the other team is going to be tempted to guard him with the opposing PF (because they can't guard Gs). So, even if that PF is covered, he has value, because he takes a rim protector and makes that protector play out on the perimeter.

In reality, in the case of Bonner, it doesn't quite work out that way. Why? Because he doesn't shoot from that high of a release point. He's bent over and shoots from his shoulder, instead of being upright and shooting from his forehead. This makes his shot easier to challenge than it really should be. Therefore, his defender doesn't have to come out as far as one would expect, and, when it comes to athletic PFs, they can show on him, make him pass, and then go back to the rim.

And all of this is just offensively; essays could be written about how much of a sieve he is defensively. Nor does this even bring up the playoffs (aka, the "real" season).

When an opponent has time to scout you thoroughly and take advantages of your flaws, it really brings those flaws to the forefront. An athletic PF can guard him closely enough to stop him from shooting his low-release point 3, make him pass, and then get back in time to prevent drives to the rim (ex: Darell Arthur last year). If that happens, then what good does Bonner do you?

[Gagnrath]

buujness he's really not that horrid defensively, in isolation most guys can take him but he does a decent job of ball denial, and he comes with help defense though he's not a shot blocker. He is in defensive position. He does take charges. People shoot worse with a hand in their face and bonner does exactly that on defense. He stays where he can keep a hand in their face. No highlights and not many steals but he's really not the horrid defender that people say.

[therealtruth]

This is just false. I can't remember who wrote the game grades for the Memphis series last year (they did a fantastic job, btw) but I recall that almost every game Bonner got above-average grades on the defensive end where the matchups were frankly horrible. It is a myth and huge fallacy on this site that Bonner was abused on the defensive end in the Memphis series last year. It just isn't true. Once the ST search feature is working again, I'll go pull up all the game grade threads and prove the point (again). But just know that anyone who says Bonner was the major defensive liability in last year's Memphis series is not speaking the truth.

Jeff Van Gundy called it when he was doing the series last year. He said the Spurs need more talent. Who's the least talented player on the Spurs? Bonner. He does one thing that the Grizzlies took away. The only reason he might seem adequate on defense is the team helps so much to try to cover for him. However it ultimately hurts the Spurs because they don't have the athleticism to help and recover against more athletic teams.

[therealtruth]

My problem with Bonner is much deeper than defense and rebounding. To explain in years past Tim Duncan has always had a capable defensive partner (Rasho, Nazr , Fab ,Horry....). Those guys would provide help defense on drives, solid and consistent rebounding and would not need help in guarding post players. Add to that fact every body said that Bowen lost a major step in the 08-09 season. Truth is, he had gradually been losing a step year after year. What screwed him up was lack of help from the bigs when he got beat (something he always had to work with From Robinson to Oberto). And that's why from 07-08 to 08-09 When the Spurs went from Starting Oberto to Bonner their was a noticeable drop off in Bowens production.

Second, the Spurs have always had a pretty quick trigger in getting rid of shooters that didn't produce in the Playoffs no matter how good they did in the regular season. Examples : Hedo Turkoglu, Ime Udoka and last Roger Mason Jr. who a few game winners in the regular season. All of them were gone by the time their contract ran out with no chance of the Spurs resigning them to solid contract.

Bonner however, had two legit seasons in which he got minutes and failed miserably in the playoffs (09' and 10' playoffs). The Spurs sign him to a 4yr deal worth $15million. The biggest contract he has ever had after two subpar playoff outings.

Yes Bonner can't do alot of things, but what bothers me about Bonner is everytime I see him on the floor it reminds me that he represents alot of what the Spurs were against in the championship days (being soft and not mentally tough). He represents how this proud organization went from being hard nosed and disciplined to being soft and not looking at the big picture.

Exactly. This organization prides itself on focusing on the postseason but continuing to play a known playoff choker major minutes goes against that. In '09 we might have gave him a pass but in '10 he should have been gone. You don't get too many wide open looks in the playoffs. That's why 3pt percentages go down. So the ones you get you have to knock down.

[portnoy1]

Exactly. This organization prides itself on focusing on the postseason but continuing to play a known playoff choker major minutes goes against that. In '09 we might have gave him a pass but in '10 he should have been gone. You don't get too many wide open looks in the playoffs. That's why 3pt percentages go down. So the ones you get you have to knock down.

The person playing the 4/5 alongside Duncan has to rebound and defend.PERIOD!!! If they want 3's from that position as well thats fine, but dont compromise what got you championsips. Troy Murphy, Lamar Odom and Ryan Anderson are guys who can hit 3's but will get there share if rebounds. Out of that group Odom is the only that gets alot of money, but anderson and murphy dont. Couldve signed or looked to trade for those guys but instead they gave Bonner all that money. Thats something else that irritates me. The Spurs act as if he is the only guy in the league that is tall and cant shoot 3's.

I like Pop but he hasnt had a deep playoff run since bonner started getting 20+ mins. Jerry Sloan wouldn't put up with this crap. Ever Since Jerry Sloan resigned I have wanted the Spurs to get him and have him be lead assistant and run the offense (the flex offense where Bonner isnt needed)while Pop goes back to what he does best "Defense"

[roycrikside]

TimVP and DRZ:

I believe I've thought of a way to get to the truth of the matter. If you want to predict how Bonner will do in the playoffs, check how he does against playoff teams. The difference between the regular season and the playoffs isn't just that games slow down and teams prepare better for their matchups. The biggest factor, imo is that the playoffs gets rid of all the bull teams.

Who cares how Bonner shoots against Golden State, Washington and Sacramento? Those teams stink. They'll leave him open all day long.

Do this study: See how he's done the past couple years in shooting percentage, 3 pt shooting percentage, rebounds, turnovers and +/- against LAL, OKC, Dal, Mem, Port, Den, LAC, Chi, Mia and Orl. Just those ten teams.

I bet the numbers are closer to his historical playoff ones than his historical regular season ones.

[therealtruth]

The person playing the 4/5 alongside Duncan has to rebound and defend.PERIOD!!! If they want 3's from that position as well thats fine, but dont compromise what got you championsips. Troy Murphy, Lamar Odom and Ryan Anderson are guys who can hit 3's but will get there share if rebounds. Out of that group Odom is the only that gets alot of money, but anderson and murphy dont. Couldve signed or looked to trade for those guys but instead they gave Bonner all that money. Thats something else that irritates me. The Spurs act as if he is the only guy in the league that is tall and cant shoot 3's.

I like Pop but he hasnt had a deep playoff run since bonner started getting 20+ mins. Jerry Sloan wouldn't put up with this crap. Ever Since Jerry Sloan resigned I have wanted the Spurs to get him and have him be lead assistant and run the offense (the flex offense where Bonner isnt needed)while Pop goes back to what he does best "Defense"

Pop's offense relies way to much on 3's instead of paint points and high percentage baskets. As a result a guy like Bonner who can shoot 3's is valued more over a guy like Splitter who can get high percentage shots and draw fouls. It's almost impossible to draw fouls when all you do is shoot 3's.

If you look at the Grizzlies series the Grizzlies got much more easy baskets than the Spurs. 3's are efficient shots but not easy baskets. The more easy baskets you get the less pressure it puts on your defense.

[therealtruth]

TimVP and DRZ:

I believe I've thought of a way to get to the truth of the matter. If you want to predict how Bonner will do in the playoffs, check how he does against playoff teams. The difference between the regular season and the playoffs isn't just that games slow down and teams prepare better for their matchups. The biggest factor, imo is that the playoffs gets rid of all the bull teams.

Who cares how Bonner shoots against Golden State, Washington and Sacramento? Those teams stink. They'll leave him open all day long.

Do this study: See how he's done the past couple years in shooting percentage, 3 pt shooting percentage, rebounds, turnovers and +/- against LAL, OKC, Dal, Mem, Port, Den, LAC, Chi, Mia and Orl. Just those ten teams.

I bet the numbers are closer to his historical playoff ones than his historical regular season ones.

I would go a step further and say how does he do against the best defensive teams. The best defensive teams consistently make the playoffs while it's harder to make the playoffs just with offense.

[ElNono]

Comparing regular season vs playoffs is an exercise in futility. There's a reason stats are kept separately for both. They're very different tournaments, with different setups and very different goals. They also normally have quite different scheduling.

During the regular season you have back to backs, roster changes, teams tanking games, longer team rotations, less pressure to win every game, etc. Things that (normally) don't exist during the playoffs.

Take last game against the Lakers last season, or Portland this season. Pop decided to tank it and sit down the big 3. Would Bonner's number in those game be a realistic sample? Probably not. Would Pop pull that off in the playoffs? Certainly not.

[Richie]

If Bonner is the worst big on the roster then we have every chance to win a championship.

Sadly with Blair we have a player who is even worse in defence and doesn't have the ability to stretch the floor like Bonner. He has a nice touch around the basket but no better than Splitter.

[z0sa]

People blame Bonner for being himself instead of the GM and Coach for acquiring and playing him.

[angelbelow]

TimVP and DRZ:

I believe I've thought of a way to get to the truth of the matter. If you want to predict how Bonner will do in the playoffs, check how he does against playoff teams. The difference between the regular season and the playoffs isn't just that games slow down and teams prepare better for their matchups. The biggest factor, imo is that the playoffs gets rid of all the bull teams.

Who cares how Bonner shoots against Golden State, Washington and Sacramento? Those teams stink. They'll leave him open all day long.

Do this study: See how he's done the past couple years in shooting percentage, 3 pt shooting percentage, rebounds, turnovers and +/- against LAL, OKC, Dal, Mem, Port, Den, LAC, Chi, Mia and Orl. Just those ten teams.

I bet the numbers are closer to his historical playoff ones than his historical regular season ones.

My lazy version that I typed up last night (few posts above yours):

Why would looking at his regular season statistics raise our confidence in his playoff performance when the two are so different? Bonner tends to do well against teams who are average to below average defensively. Looking at his regular season statistics vs. playoff caliber teams would be a better way to go about things IMO. Against teams like Orlando, Philly, Chicago, Miami, Bonner has either shot poorly or shot very little (he did play well against Dallas 3 times though). Against OKC, hes shot well at 50% from the 3 (38.5% overall), but his makes and attempts are fewer compared to his season averages (1.3M down from 1.8 and 2.7 A down from 4.1A.) Bonner has a averaged 3+ 3pointers makes vs. teams like Utah, Washington, Charlotte, Detroit and Atlanta. None of those are great defensive teams and only the Hawks are currently in playoff standings. Its not strictly one way or the other but more often then not he struggles against playoff teams as opposed to playing very well against teams who are less disciplined.

Just responding to say I'm done with this thread.

Not surprising.

[vander]

so far this year:

when Bonner is on the court, the Spurs give up 102.43 ppg. when he is on the bench, 103.92 ppg

when Bonner is on the court, the Spurs score 113.43 ppg.
when he is on the bench, 104.18

the Spurs top 3-player combo is Parker/Bonner/Splitter
and the 3 top 2-player combos are Bonner/Splitter, Parker/Bonner, Parker/Splitter.


Pop should play more Bonner/Splitter
and no more Blair, the Spurs do 12 ppg worse when Blair on the floor

[therealtruth]

People blame Bonner for being himself instead of the GM and Coach for acquiring and playing him.

If he really cared about the team he would tell the coach to not play him so much.

[Spurs7794]

I like Bonner. However, it pisses me off that Pop plays him over Splitter and that he inexplicably plays him at weird moments. For example, the Thunder are coming back, the building is rocking. Pop calls a timeout to bring in the big dogs...and Bonner.

Those types of games, as much as I've hoped and prayed for it to be otherwise, are not where Bonner shines. For whatever reason, he just plays nervously. He passes up shots just because its crunch time. JUST SHOOT THE DAMN BALL.

The only time I've seen him shoot confidently in crunch time was game 1 against Memphis last year. He shot those two threes with no hesitation. I thought those shots would help him out because those were HUGE shots. However, then we get horrible moments this season like against the Clippers in overtime where he was wide open and wanted nothing to do with the shot. But since everyone else was covered, he hesitated, looked scared, then shot it almost like he was scared of what Pop would think for him not shooting it. He did make it but I think his reaction there is more indicative of his mindset than that one result.

[cheguevara]

- gets too many minutes. I understand why, but the fact still remains
- seems to miss open shots when it matters (playoffs, big games)
- gets raped on defensive end 75% of the time
- usually dissapears when we need to make a run late in the game

that's pretty much it.