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I agree with you Roycrikside, it would have been completely agree if you had said that Bonner gets MORE than 50% of the blame.
My contention continues to be that the more he's on the floor, the more his flaws become magnified. When he's getting regular rotation minutes where a playoff team can scout him and exploit him possession after possession, he simply can't make enough shots to make up for it. Pop came up with a way to keep teams from exploiting Jacque Vaughn on offense, and Bonner's a bigger liability in the playoffs defensively than JV ever was.
I agree with you Roycrikside, it would have been completely agree if you had said that Bonner gets MORE than 50% of the blame.
I didn't say the defense was worse with Splitter on the floor. It wasn't. It was 1.5 points per 100 possessions better.
What I said was they got outscored worse with Splitter on the floor.
If you want to look at it another way it's this:
Difference in offense w/Bonner vs. w/Splitter > difference in defense w/Splitter vs. w/Bonner.
Hope that helps.
No doubt. That's entirely on Pop though, and how he sees Splitter and/or his focus on offense.
Well, I disagree. Remove Diaw and if Blair pulled a Casper act like last season, small ball would've been first in line, and Tiago second in line. Now Diaw would be ahead of Tiago for those situations.
Now, I don't have a problem with Diaw, but I much rather see Tiago out there than him, tbh.
But, again, that's on Pop being Pop. There's no reason why we would need to die with any of that instead of, say, Tiago.
You're obviously omitting that Nazr hopped to the front line after Rasho was injured...
Who was signed due to Devin Brown going down with an injury...
Finley, I agree, but he was a special case as Matty is. Pop just loved the guy. He loved him so much, Fin ended up robbing Hill minutes when Hill should've been on the floor.
Thomas replaced Elson, who was shipped out on the trade... we also played the Shaq's Suns and Thomas was the only guy that could guard him not named Tim.
But barely played in the postseason...
I don't think he's stubborn enough not to change his selection of players if they're sucking (see RJ, Blair last playoffs). But going in, I do think his picks are mostly based on pecking order than anything else. I almost expect it these days.
Ian had nothing to do with the Mav's getting the finals.
I can buy that argument. I'm just saying compared to 2009 and 2010, last year's postseason was actually a step in the right direction for poor Matt. And Pop says he's playing his best ball ever now, so I guess I'm trying to be optimistic for this postseason.
I've made my preferences clear. If it was up to me Bonner would be the 4th big man and Blair would be out of the rotation.
oh, btw, and it's not all negative... I like the moves the team made. Switching RJ for Jack is a fairly big fix on the perimeter...
There's nothing to be baffled about. He's stubborn as a mule. He's never gotten over himself and he's surrounded by a yes man coaching staff. All that being said, I think Pop may try the Splitter-Duncan combo against LA or Memphis, if it comes to that. I don't think match-up wise it makes much sense against other teams.
When it comes to people who play on the high post or the wings though, like Dirk or even Gasol and Randolph for the most part, I think Pop would be more confident that Diaw could guard them out there than Splitter or Tim. He wants those guys to protect the basket and be the main shot blocker/rebounder.
Further, Thomas was suddenly benched against the Lakers. Two issues that I remember from that series was struggling to score and being out rebounded. Thomas may not have helped offensively but rebounding is a different story.
Maybe Odom and Gasol were a bad match up for Duncan and Thomas... but I don't see how Oberto or Horry were any better. Horry was pretty dreadful after the Phoenix series.
You haven't gotten yet have you Roycrikside? If Timmy goes 1 for 12 and Bonner goes 5 for 6 on 3pt shots and the Spurs lose, it was Bonner's fault for letting someone score and not making that 3 pt shot. It matters little what Bonner does, the people on this board are going to slam him. He blocks out on rebounds, he makes the extra pass to the open man, he makes 3's and drives the bucket, he draws fouls and lately he has blocked a few shots and against Indiana, he even cause an adjustment on a shot from behind, he plays defense and then is blamed when Tiago leaves his man open to chase a guard who then gets an easy assist on Tiago's man's basket. YOU cant win with these guys. Bonner is a convienent scapegoat for their outlet to blame.
Shut up, grey got.
What's your point?
Nobody and I mean *nobody* is disputing Bonner's regular season effectiveness. In fact, nobody's blaming him for playing too many minutes. That's mostly on Pop.
The truth of the matter is that Bonner is getting minutes ahead of and at the expense of better players who could clearly help the team in the playoffs. Since no decently defending team is going to leave Bonner wide open beyond the arc, the team will essentially be playing him for his defense and rebounding. That won't fly and everybody who understands basketball knows it.
When you have a Spanish League MVP sitting on the bench who is taller, better, stronger, and faster, that just makes people feel even worse about the situation. Tiago is a player. Bonner is a specialist. No matter how hard you try, you can't use them the same way successfully.
So you see, it's not that people are blaming Bonner for losing the series. In most cases they're just pointing out his limitations and getting mad because we all know that this team has the pieces to win it all.
What you're seeing is fans who are losing confidence in the coach's ability to maximize the players he has.
I don't even recall Bonner hitting a shot in the 4th quarter of last night's game? I don't think he can even hit shots consistently in the 4th quarter of regular season games. I'd like to see stats on his 4th quarter shooting in the regular season. The fact that I can't recall many makes in those situations is what makes it so tough to even think about him playing in the playoffs.
I'd actually like to know how many times the guy Bonner was guarding scored on him during the Memphis series.
pop not playing splitter kind of reminds me of stan van gundy never playing gortat next to dwight howard. a gortat/howard frontcourt would have been so dominant but for some reason van gundy never put gortat next to howard.
I could be wrong (would hardly be the first time) but it seems to me that Pop knows nothing he can do will make this team that good defensively, so he's just gonna throw a hail mary that he can outscore everyone.
Like TimVP has pointed out numerous times, the Stephen Jackson trade was more about economics than basketball, but at least you know Jack won't turn down open threes and he can also earn an occasional trip to the FT line, so overall he'll be more useful than RJ was. Similarly, Diaw and Mills are both guys who are better offensively than defensively.
I think Pop wants to put lineups out there where regardless of who's playing all 5 guys can score and won't be afraid to shoot and take his chances that way, hoping that the efficiency and smart play of the big three down the stretch of games will be enough.
Maybe he's saying something different behind closed doors, but there have been too many games where the Spurs have allowed over 105 pts and over 50% shooting and Pop has told the media that he's happy with the defense for me to think he gives a about it. All he cares about on that end of the floor is we rebound well and don't allow a ton of points in the paint. If guys hit open jump shots he doesn't care.
That's an interesting comparison. Didn't Gortat totally beast in the games that Dwight didn't play where he was out due to suspension in the playoffs?
It's kind of hard to look into that situation though because of Jameer Nelson returning for the finals. I didn't watch that finals series closely so I don't know if it was a lack of size or Jameer being reinserted back into the starting five that threw the team out of whack.
You could also look at the previous teams the Magic had to beat going into the finals, Boston without KG and also Cleveland who didn't really have any great big men. Their small ball strategy seemed to work, but then they had to play the Lakers who had size and they got beaten easily. For those of you that watched, could the Magic have used more size in that series?
Last edited by Ice009; 04-01-2012 at 10:37 PM.
Yeah. I would actually argue that he's a better positional defender than Howard. Excellent player with pretty solid fundamentals. My memory is pretty fuzzy though but I think I can see why Gortat/Howard didn't play together.
I don't think either of them can shoot and I'm not sure either of them can comfortably guard the perimeter. They're both clearly C's so I get where Van Gundy was coming from somewhat although he probably should've tried that line-up more often.
I'm going off of impressions though so I could be wrong. I don't really think that this Duncan/Splitter situation is quite the same thing although it's possible Pop thinks it is.
Both Gortat and Howard are liabilities on offense when double teamed. The Orlando offense was basically 4 shooters spreading the floor for Dwight Howard. Playing Gortat over Lewis or Hedo would have been devastating for their offense and goes against everything that Stan was preaching. IMO, that is why we never saw a Howard and Gortat twin tower combination. Additionally, Gortat's improvement on offense this season is a symbiotic relationship with Steve Nash.
Lol you're just as bad as a blind Bonner hater. Why don't you try reading the thread before charging head first to Bonner's defense.
Bonner improved offensively in the playoffs last year but he's still not a winning player. I still think this quote from last year sums it up best:
I've seen Gortat hit the jumper in Phoenix off of a Nash pass, but don't know if he had that in the arsenal when he was in Orlando.
Did you watch the finals series with the Lakers? Did the Lakers size beat the Magic? Was that the main reason for the loss or was it Jameer throwing the whole team out of whack by coming back?
Edit : Also, does anyone have Bonner's stats in 4th quarter and OT games this season?
No, you're still coming off as a dumbass. Splitter came in with no time with anyone, no wind and still managed to be the most effective big on the team in the playoffs. You're splitting hairs on tiny differences compared to a Bonner who had several years with the team and acting like your stats mean something. They don't. Splitter has proven to be a far better player than Bonner on both ends of the floor.
Based on what?
Based on what? If you just write things without showing me some proof, what substance is there?
Too hard to judge because he didn't take many jump shots with the Magics but I'd imagine that it wasn't a consistent weapon of his. In the 2009 Nba playoffs, Gortat took 81% of his shots from inside (averaged 2.4 pts) and 19% jumps (averaged .4 pts).
I did watch some of the Laker Magic finals with some buddies, but was too distracted or indifferent to pay attention. But it was the clear that the Lakers were the superior team in skill, depth, preparation, talent and coaching. They were able to lock down the 4 perimeter shooters and have big enough bodies to defend Dwight 1v1. No surprise that they Lakers won so easily.
I think Timvp posted some good stuff regarding Bonner's clutch performance during the regular season. (A few pages back in this thread)
Last edited by angelbelow; 04-02-2012 at 02:05 AM.
I strongly disagree here.
History tells us having dual 7-foot defenders in the paint has always been such a drag and recipe for failure, especially for the spurs. Plus there could be a mul ude of other reasons, too. Let's give Pop the benefit of the doubt, here. Could be Tim is allergic to Tiago's aftershave and Tiago can't switch brands because it was a gift from a special girl. And he's like, all supersticious and . Or Tiago cheated with Timmy's wife and when Tim confronted Tiago in the practice there was a huge fight and Pop had to drag them apart. Now Pop has to keep em separated on the court. See how that works? Listen to spectator, man. Since we just don't know the details we should assume there is something Pop knows that we don't.
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