Consumer reports "Volt doesn't really make sense"

[boutons_deux]

If only the $2T wasted on Repug wars had gone into energy storage research.

a "War on (Electrical) Energy Storage", American LOVE wars on everything

[boutons_deux]

NGVs, Europe, AGAIN, way ahead of USA.

http://www.ngvaeurope.eu/european-ngv-statistics

[DarrinS]

I love having electrics at the ranch. Once I get there my truck never moves again until I leave.

Golf cart?

[Wild Cobra]

The rating is relative only to the cars within it's class...ie a score of 6 for a hybrid is not better than a score of 5 for a non hybrid.
You cannot compare the two scores in any meaningful manner. The index is not a direct measurement. It is a rating of a cars position relative to a standard for it's class. You are demonstrably incorrect in your assumptions as I have already shown. Stop already.

Under the new system, two scores-one for smog-forming emissions, one for carbon-dioxide-will be given on new-vehicle window stickers. Both will be have a simple score system from 1 to 10, with 10 being the cleanest.

The new Smog Scores will correspond to real emissions classifications. For instance, a ULEV vehicle will receive a 5, PZEVs will be 9, and ZEVs will get a 10. Based on 2007 model year vehicles, most vehicles rated 4 and 5, though the numbers will migrate upward. The system is set to be revisited for 2012.

With the so-called Global Warming Score, it would be the first notification of any sort to be required on new U.S. vehicles that directly associates carbon dioxide emissions with global warming.

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f16a83c

The information I researched, the link I posted, was the revision. From your link dated Nov 05, 2007:

The system is set to be revisited for 2012.

Top of the pages I linked:

Federal Register / Vol. 76, No. 129 / Wednesday, July 6, 2011 / Rules and Regulations

You guys fail to give me credit for noticing there are difference that are critical.

Now the Greenhouse Gas Rating is the one that changes with vehicle/engine size and mileage. They separated the two completely.

They make engines that burn so clean today, that the air coming out is cleaner than what went in, in some areas, like LA.

[TeyshaBlue]

Nothing in that 110 page .pdf changed the classification system for the smog index that I can find. They are scored differently in different states, which invalidates the index as a comparitor.

[DarrinS]

The advertising for the Volt probably isn't helping either.

[Wild Cobra]

Nothing in that 110 page .pdf changed the classification system for the smog index that I can find. They are scored differently in different states, which invalidates the index as a comparitor.

Well, I didn't look at the history.

The smog rating is at the tailpipe. It rates various outputs. At first I thought it was by vehicle class, but I see that no where in the writeup.

Seriously. They make some real clean burning engines today. Larger engines, and especially those that don't cycle on and off, are capable of maintaining optimum heat for actions of the emission features.

As for being scored differently by state, I didn't see that. Where did you see it? What I read leads me to believe it is now standardized for all states.

[Borat Sagyidev]

These analysis really miss the point.

An electric drive train requires A LOT LESS MAINTENANCE than a single traditional combustion engine.

Heck there are hybrids on the road with 200k + miles that still don't need a brake change and the single most prevalent maintenance act is the battery packs can be had for less than $500 at times.

That 40k car can last 40 yrs with minimal maintenance.

Yes it costs a lot, I agree...it's expensive. It will come down in price at some point.
You can build your own an electric car for 5-10k+ including all parts and donor vehicle.

So go ahead and s out 15k less for a F-150 that maybe will last a decade before it needs a major overhaul. They use electric motors on the drive trains on heavy machinery like trains for a reason.

[CosmicCowboy]

These analysis really miss the point.

An electric drive train requires A LOT LESS MAINTENANCE than a single traditional combustion engine.

Heck there are hybrids on the road with 200k + miles that still don't need a brake change and the single most prevalent maintenance act is the battery packs can be had for less than $500 at times.

That 40k car can last 40 yrs with minimal maintenance.

Yes it costs a lot, I agree...it's expensive. It will come down in price at some point.
You can build your own an electric car for 5-10k+ including all parts and donor vehicle.

So go ahead and s out 15k less for a F-150 that maybe will last a decade before it needs a major overhaul. They use electric motors on the drive trains on heavy machinery like trains for a reason.

You sure are making a lot of unsubstantiated claims.

40 year product life? $500 battery change out? I'm throwing the bull flag on THOSE.

[Blake]

You sure are making a lot of unsubstantiated claims.

CosmicKettle

[boutons_deux]

I've heard the early Prius packs, replaced at 5 years, were $7K, totally wiping out gas savings.

The industry is pretty stupid now. Battery packs should be standardized, commoditized, sold at auto shops, Wal-Mart, everywhere, with equipement at POS to remove and insert them. eg, output of 48 V or whatever at standard terminals, no matter what's in the battery(energy) pack.

[CosmicCowboy]

Volt battery pack change out is $8000 right now.

[MannyIsGod]

He didn't say Volt though. He was talking about Hybrids on the road right now with 200k miles.

I'm not sure if he's right or not, but I didn't get the impression he meant a Volt.

[CosmicCowboy]

He didn't say Volt though. He was talking about Hybrids on the road right now with 200k miles.

I'm not sure if he's right or not, but I didn't get the impression he meant a Volt.

, it costs more than that to change the batteries in my golf carts.

[TeyshaBlue]

So go ahead and s out 15k less for a F-150 that maybe will last a decade before it needs a major overhaul. They use electric motors on the drive trains on heavy machinery like trains for a reason.

I drive a 19 year old Chevy S-10. I don't have to drive it, but I do because it just will not quit. Most trucks are holding out waaay longer than a decade.

[CosmicCowboy]

I drive a 19 year old Chevy S-10. I don't have to drive it, but I do because it just will not quit. Most trucks are holding out waaay longer than a decade.

X2

I've got 211,000 on my '02 2500HD 4X4 and still going strong. Didn't have to change brake pads till 200,000 either!...

[Borat Sagyidev]

Volt battery pack change out is $8000 right now.

That's because those are from GM with a nice "jobs program" charge included.

Just wait for 3rd parties to get involved.

http://oldmizer.hubpages.com/hub/Pri...Do-It-Yourself

[Borat Sagyidev]

I've heard the early Prius packs, replaced at 5 years, were $7K, totally wiping out gas savings.

The industry is pretty stupid now. Battery packs should be standardized, commoditized, sold at auto shops, Wal-Mart, everywhere, with equipement at POS to remove and insert them. eg, output of 48 V or whatever at standard terminals, no matter what's in the battery(energy) pack.

Toyota sells them at about $3k, which is still way overpriced for the material and tech involved.

You're right. The whole nice part of electric drive motors is that they are relatively simple, if the battery packs were made that way it would fall in line better.

I think some of you missed the point about electric drive. You need oil to make most combustion engine runs well and you have to change it periodically. There is a lot of friction throughout the drive train that leads to wear and tear.

With an electric drive, you can virtually eliminate a lot of those friction problems, even to the point of excluding a transmission. Fuel pump, Mass air flow sensor..radiator can be eliminated as well...the list goes on.

I have a electric motor fork lift from the 50's that still works like it was new. My 1990's diesel powered lift died in the early 2000's. Just my experience.

[jacobdrj]

The value of a car like the Volt is not in conventional terms that most of us can or would relate to. The value is 2 fold:

1) Those who can afford a Volt: Time has great value. More so than in the value judgements of the average car leaser. What I mean by that is: Being able to come home at night, and just 'plug in' rather than stop at a gas station, in rush hour, before getting home, is extremely tempting. Coming from an SUV, where fill-ups could be weekly, even driving under 40 miles a day, this can be a big plus. Particularly when telecommuting is not an option. For people with lucrative careers, this is less time wasted from clients. From people with a emphasis on family time, this is 1 less think you have to think about before waking up the next morning.

2) R and D. This is a 2nd generation product. Nowhere near the final iteration of an electric vehicle, let alone one with a generator backup. The lessons learned from this vehicle in real world situations will assist with the general adoption of the technology in the future.

[DarrinS]

That 40k car can last 40 yrs with minimal maintenance.

I'm highly dubious of this claim. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't want to be driving the same car 40 years from now. I'll prob be dead by then anyway. Doesn't matter -- we'll all be up to our necks in melted glacier water by then -- lol.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Second Wind: Air-Breathing Lithium Batteries Promise Recharge-Free Long-Range Driving--If the Bugs Can Be Worked Out

IBM-led research to create lithium-air electric vehicle batteries gets a boost from Japanese chemical companies toward the goal of 800 kilometers out of a full charge

By Larry Greenemeier | April 20, 2012 | 19

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lithium, oxygen,electric car, IBM, battery IN THE AIR: In this screen capture from an IBM computational simulation, scientists study the simulations of the interaction of an organic solvent electrolyte (propylene carbonate) with lithium ions (white) and oxygen near a surface of Lithium-peroxide (the planar structure near the bottom of the screen). Image: Courtesy of IBM Research-Zurich

Researchers predict a new type of lithium battery under development could give an electric car enough juice to travel a whopping 800 kilometers before it needs to be plugged in again—about 10 times the energy that today's lithium ion batteries supply. It is a tantalizing prospect—a lighter, longer-lasting, air-breathing power source for the next generation of vehicles—if only someone could build a working model. Several roadblocks stand between these lithium–air batteries and the open road, however, primarily in finding electrodes and electrolytes that are stable enough for rechargeable battery chemistry.

IBM plans to take lithium–air batteries out of neutral by building a working prototype by the end of next year. The company announced Friday it has stepped up development efforts by adding two Japanese technology firms—chemical manufacturer Asahi Kasei Corp. and electrolyte maker Central Glass—to the IBM Battery 500 Project, a coalition IBM established in 2009 to accelerate the switch from gas to electric-powered vehicles among carmakers and their customers.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...oxygen-battery

There more at the link.

I love IBM unlike ty Apple who ties to do everything inhouse on their engineering projects and end up with ty products on the whole, IBM makes multilateral projects that become industry standards. Its just a better way of doing business.

[spursncowboys]

I drive a 19 year old Chevy S-10. I don't have to drive it, but I do because it just will not quit. Most trucks are holding out waaay longer than a decade.

cars will go out way before trucks. Especially diesels.

[DMX7]

As the technology matures and economies of scale kick-in everything associated with it will become cheaper, but Big Oil will uses its puppets to mock it all it can for now. Naturally, repugs here are too stupid to realize that even if they don't want an electric car, they'll still benefit from a proliferation of them.

[Drachen]

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...oxygen-battery

There more at the link.

I love IBM unlike ty Apple who ties to do everything inhouse on their engineering projects and end up with ty products on the whole, IBM makes multilateral projects that become industry standards. Its just a better way of doing business.

I saw this too, but their goal timeframe is 2030. Something better will hopefully be around before then

[boutons_deux]

Lithium? Is there enough to support billions of batteries with acceptable cost?

http://lithiumabundance.blogspot.com/