because supposedly he was a spectator at a tame street fight. the animal
I just want to know why the lead investigator and prosecutor think he is lying.
because supposedly he was a spectator at a tame street fight. the animal
You and me both. I'm guessing that there's Zimmerman's inconsistencies and more evidence in addition to that?
if trayvon is the kid with backwards hat, he seemed to do the humane thing at the end. he kept seperation between the kid who was winning the fight and the other kid who had clearly given up.
I understand about the time. I also understand people taking your viewpoint because of the way things unfolded through the media.
Consider this...
What if, when Trayvon's mother heard the 911 tape, with the cries for help, if she assumed it was her son, without actually recognizing screams from him, that she probably never heard from him since before puberty.
I say she assumed it was him, because she also assumed he was a helpless victim of a crime. Now that she's said it on record, she's not taking it back. I say she wants revenge, even if Zimmerman was in his right by self defense.
At least with all the other evidence in play, that's sure what it looks like to me.
I suggest you maintain that skeptical status a little bit longer.
Does anyone deserve to die? I will say some do, but I agree Martin did not "deserve" it. At the same time, I have also stated if I were in the same situation, and equipped like Zimmerman says and was, I would shoot whatever mother er was on me too.
Yes, Zimmerman could be lying, and probably did with at least one, or a few points. Still, if he actually acted in self defense, he is innocent, by law. Period.
I think GSH, like most people (since the truth has started to come out about the weak prosecution and media bias in this case), is criticizing the angelic portrait of Trayvon that the race-baiters have tried to paint. It's not neccessarily an attack on Trayvon, although that's ultimately what it looks like. I think it's for people to call him a thug, but I equally think it's for people to paint him as a quality individual so that they can pursue their own investments. If people don't think Trayvon is a martyr, they're not gonna buy the hoodies, the cds, and shirts...this is PR 101 and it's bombarding every one of us from all sides.
Zimmerman is going free, but he'll be in chains all his life cuz he's obviously suffering some kind of psychosis. The idiots and racebaiters will call it being cold and a guilty conscience, but it's quite clear to the educated that this dude is trapped in his head as a result of the incident. No one wins, and for anyone to act like THEY PERSONALLY get a sense of justice from seeing Zimmerman punished based on popular opinion (rather than the facts) is the real bad guy.
I agree.
Even if he was guilty and goes free, this incident will haunt him for life, unless he's a psychopath, which I don't think anyone believes.
Media plays a part but maybe this case is also the straw that broke the camel's back?
The stalker is tatooed for life with this crime. The Monica Lewinsky of vigilante murderers.
Have you been waiting to use that one? It's not even close to the same thing.
Not everybody views things from the slant of the media.
I just happen to think that the voice that got silenced by the gunshot couldn't possibly have belonged to a 28 year old man.
As for your theory over the mother, that's a stretch to say the least. The mother lived with Trayvon and she'd been an active part of his life as he grew up. She'd recognize her son's voice and the fact that the screams stopped immediately after the gunshot kind of proves that the person calling for help was most likely the one who was killed.
Owen has credentials, his methods have been used in court before, he's been considered a leading expert in his field, and he came to the conclusion that it wasn't Zimmerman's voice. Ditto for the other guy. Until another expert is able to debunk these findings with qualified evidence I will defer to these guys and go with what they're saying even if I do understand that this might change.
The problem is that he lied about all the important details such as how the fight started and what caused him to finally shoot. Since we now know that his head was never bashed repeatedly into the concrete (that's the point Zimmerman was using to justify pulling out the gun and shooting), I just don't believe he was in a real life or death type situation by the time he pulled the trigger. A fight, yes. But not one where he was justified in killing the kid.
That said, Murder 2 is probably overcharging unless the prosecution has something more. Based on what we've seen so far though, if I was on the jury I don't think I'd convict Zimmerman on that particular charge.
Nobody's trying to saint Trayvon though. Most people are just saying that his flaws weren't a good enough reason to kill him. Sure, it looks like he tweeted dumb things and got into trouble at school but at the same time he also seemed to love his family and had plans for college. He was a normal kid who was still figuring things out. You'll find 17 year olds of all races that have similar backgrounds.
Also, I really don't care if he objects to the photo that was circulating through the media. The US media is terrible. They're biased and they don't always present the facts. We get it. To use this situation as a way to vent personal gripes about the state of journalism when a teenager has died is really no better than what Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, and CNN have been doing and it lacks proper perspective. He along with everybody else who's doing this is behaving badly.
And tbh, I think slogans like "I am Trayvon" and hoodie sales aren't necessarily about the kid being a martyr so much as it is folks acknowledging the fact that this was a normal kid who died for no reason and yet a lot of people (so it seems) have been way too quick to believe that his life didn't really count. I suspect that a lot of it comes down to the fact that they understand that this could've been someone they knew and loved.
I for one am just happy that he's been arrested and that he'll be judged by a jury (although I'm also hoping for a lawsuit).
I would agree with that as well. No matter what happens he should probably see a professional.
Last edited by TheSkeptic; 04-23-2012 at 10:05 AM.
Z is as tatooed for life as a "murderous vigilante of Sanford", an NRA/ALEC version of Monica Lewinsky.
I have not heard, nor seen, anyone claim that there was ANY reason to kill Trayvon because of his character. I'm sure there are bigots out there thinking his skin color was enough to warrant his death, but I haven't personally seen anyone here or in my real life convos say such a thing.Nobody's trying to saint Trayvon though. Most people are just saying that his flaws weren't a good enough reason to kill him. Sure, it looks like he tweeted dumb things and got into trouble at school but at the same time he also seemed to love his family and had plans for college. He was a normal kid who was still figuring things out. You'll find 17 year olds of all races that have similar backgrounds.
Also, I really don't care if he objects to the photo that was circulating through the media. The US media is terrible. They're biased and they don't always present the facts. We get it. To use this situation as a way to vent personal gripes about the state of journalism when a teenager has died is really no better than what Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, and CNN have been doing and it lacks proper perspective. He along with everybody else who's doing this is behaving badly.
And tbh, I think slogans like "I am Trayvon" and hoodie sales aren't necessarily about the kid being a martyr so much as it is folks acknowledging the fact that this was a normal kid who died for no reason and yet a lot of people (so it seems) have been way too quick to believe that his life didn't really count. I suspect that a lot of it comes down to the fact that they understand that this could've been someone they knew and loved.
I for one am just happy that he's been arrested and that he'll be judged by a jury (although I'm also hoping for a lawsuit
Those slogans people cling to, it's all a brainwash. It's not solidarity, it's the guilt of self-reflection...and it's not a genuine phenomena that occured when this case originally caught fire (since most people are realizing now that they got carried away). People claim "oh the tragedy, we lost a young man under unclear cir stances" when kids in their own cities are killing each other and never facing justice because of the "no snitch" mentality. Sure, let's put a bounty over the non-black that admitted to shooting a black kid in a ed up situation...but let's not hold the same level of accountability to the real cold-blooded killers that never accept responsibility for filling our inner-city with drugs and killing innocents in the crossfire. THAT hypocrisy is why the black community cannot rise beyond the shadow of the Sharptons/Jacksons and will continue to allow themselves to be victimized by our own silence. In times like this, non-blacks just laugh at how easy we get led around by colour when we're always the ones begging people stop looking at color when they look at us. It's insanity, and I can't wait for Zimmerman to go free so we can all confront it together and hopefully face what we've allowed ourselves to become because we haven't had the balls to look in the mirror.
Quite frankly what difference is what the 'black community' thinks as pertains this man's guilt or innocence? It seems that a lot of people think that bashing Sharpton and the other demagogues makes a difference one way or another.
It just sounds to me like a pissing contest as to black culture and thats what you are trying to make what this trial is about.
I just want to hear what the state's case is. I want to hear why they think hes lying. This race nonsense is just gratuitous and has no bearing as to anything that the state has actually claimed at any point.
All activists are hypocrites to a certain extent and if Zimmerman is guilty then he shouldn't go free.
We know he lied about Trayvon blindsiding him and we know he lied about having his head pounded repeatedly into the pavement. Given what else we know Zimmerman's claim of self-defense may not be justified here. Depending on what else the state has at its disposal, he may not deserve Murder 2 but he does deserve jail time and/or to be sued.
To be fair though, I suspect that this case will come down to jury selection more than anything else.
You're addressing two completely different issues and while I do agree with you that the black community can and should do better, that really doesn't have a bearing on this case in my opinion.
For every black person who takes Sharpton/Jackson seriously there's another who doesn't. Nobody takes the New Black Panthers seriously and at that I believe they were calling for a Citizen's Arrest. They're idiots and they were wrong but, again, why act like they represent the black community as a whole? Doesn't that just reinforce what a lot of African Americans are saying about how people tend to see their skin colour and not an individual with his/her own thoughts and convictions? Rush Limbaugh is as dogmatic as they come and yet you won't hear any white person saying that he speaks on behalf of all Caucasians.
They don't speak for all blacks and frankly the issue of race and the cleaning up of the black community is a lot more complicated than you're making it out to be. Not the least of which is due to the socio-economic issues associated with the inner city and how a lot of those issues impact that particular sub-culture. Though if you want to start a thread on that, that'd be an interesting discussion.
TheSkeptic killing it.
Advice to the white folks: stop empowering a stupid group such as the New Black Panthers with fears that shouldn't even be associated with them in the first place. They are irrelevant and were hushed down. When I saw them on the news, nobody was rallying around them except a few members that I could count using my fingers.
If you notice, I haven't said much on the topic.
I did hear a news blurb that the Black Panthers said some pretty pissed off things about the "new" assholes using their name.
I really admire your calls for black people to me more introspective. I'm a huge believer that you constantly blame others for your problems, you are denying yourself an opportunity to better yourself as a person because when you ask questions like "What could I have done differently to improve my life even if there is prejudice around me?" you tend to challenge yourself and end up in a better place than you would if you blamed everyone but yourself.
That said, there are a few nuances which I think the "Trayvon brought this upon himself/ The media is biased" crowd is ignoring here:
- The comparison to the coverage and scrutiny on the Martin case to the black on black crime issue is a very flawed one. Much of the scrutiny came to this case because a man was not arrested despite shooting an unarmed teenager who was doing nothing but walking home. It's extremely rare that an unarmed teenager of any race is shot dead in the street without so much as an arrest. That's what made it so newsworthy initially. An apples to apples comparison would be a black on black crime where the killer wasn't apprehended and charged, not black on black crime in general.
- Going after Trayvon's past incidents (suspensions, twitter account, youtube of him refereeing a fight) WITHOUT acknowledging and considering that Zimmerman has been arrested in the past for battery and had to go to Anger Management classes is simply flat-out, unequivocal bias. Z also got into a physical confrontation with his ex-girlfriend that ended up with dual restraining orders. Why is it exactly that Trayvon's past is a rational explanation for his allegedly violent behavior on the day of his death but Zimmerman's past is not, particularly when Zimmerman's past is more do ented whereas much of Trayvon's indiscretions are more speculative (such as a fight on youtube where he wasn't even an active participant!)?
- If you (And I definitely don't mean you specifically) want to call out the Martin family for being opportunistic and low-class regarding a potential civil suit of Zimmerman, I sure hope you had the same feeling of disgust when Ron Goldman's parents sued OJ Simpson in 1994 or when many non-black families sue in Civil Court when their loved ones are murdered. It is beyond me how anyone can criticize any legal, nonviolent actions of 2 parents who just had to endure an event that is probably the biggest fear of any parent, especially when the "non-cynical/I'll give them the benefit of the doubt" perspective is that they didn't want others to profit from their son's death.
Who's life sucks any harder right now than theirs? Not many...
- When one suggests that the sole or main reason why many folks are riled up about this incident and the way the police/DA's office handled it is because the media attempted to frame the situation to fulfill its agenda through use of babyfaced 14 year old Travyon Martin pictures, they completely discount the possibility that the reason people are riled up just may be that a 17 year old unarmed teenager was shot to death by a neighborhood watchman who wasn't arrested for his actions, irrespective of what either the killer or the victim looked like! .
Even if the media had an agenda, which it almost always does, that isn't the thrust of this case. That's a tangential issue that some be to focusing on to push their own belief that the MSM is ridiculously biased towards playing up racism, etc and make that the primary issue.
I would argue that if most people heard about this case on the radio before seeing any pictures and listened to the 911 calls, they'd be just as shocked that something like that could happen without an arrest being made.
I first heard of this story on talk radio and my reaction didn't change much once I saw the pictures. I found the story very intriguing and wanted to know what was behind it. Personally, when I initially saw the baby-faced Trayvon picture my first thought "no way is that a 17 year old" and had assumed it was old. I'm sure I wasnt the only one that thought so.
It's actually kind of insulting to your fellow American to suggest that the media makes them formulate their beliefs. It suggests they are incapable of formulating their own and seeing through obvious BS. Most Americans are more sophisticated than this and the media is just one of many factors that goes into how they formulate opinions about news events.
Some folks are just obsessed about media bias, to the point where they feel it needs to dominate discussions about current events moreso than the nature of the events themselves. Of course it exists, but most of the time it doesn't take a rocket scientist to snuff it out.
Last edited by bobbyjoe; 04-24-2012 at 05:17 AM.
Would you shoot someone if they weren't bashing your head into the ground, but did throw punches at you and wrestle with you?
I couldn't agree more that Zimmerman lying/exaggerating on one or two aspects of the case it does not mean he is necessarily guilty of a crime, but I do believe that if the prosecution can demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury that he lied (about something which isn't clearly trivial or minute), the odds of his conviction go up considerably. His credibility is HUGE in this case since no eyewitness observed the entire incident. He's an idiot for lying/exaggerating at all btw and I think his lawyer has a very tough decision in allowing him to take the stand or not.
FYI, reportedly Zimmerman passed something equivalent to a lie-detector test by the police. A voice stress test I believe.
"not mean he is necessarily guilty of a crime"
he started it, he criminally finished it.
Point #1 is false. The pe ions started because a white man named Zimmerman shot an unarmed baby-faced black boy holding an iced tea and skittles. No one had pictures of Zimmerman, they only knew a baby-faced black boy was murdered and no arrest made. The Truth: Zimmerman is a rodent looking Mexican and Trayvon isn't a 12 year old boy. The media had to run with it tho because so many people got invested in the hype.
Point #2 is valid, in so far as you acknowledge that Zimmerman's past came out first and then people started looking at Trayvon. Equally irresponsible for people to base anything off their histories - something happened that night, and it involved death. Neither was in a situation of life and death before, so we should leave their histories out of it because people never know how they will react in a situation like that.
To point #3: I think the Goldman's were lightyears beyond the Martins in terms of being "opportunistic." The Martins already have a built-in brand, with NBA stars and Musicians behind them, so they really don't need to pursue Zimmerman when he goes free. In fact, I don't think they will anymore. I hope they make a lot of money cuz it sucks having people uncover so much info on your dead son and he's not their to defend himself. On the other hand, the Goldman's didn't care what the State of California thought, they just wanted someone recognized as the killer of their son - ideally, someone with money.
Point #4 is a lie, no one would have cared about this story if there wasn't a viral campaign based on the perception that a white dude got away with shooting a black kid. The media, and people in general, would not have cared one bit if it was black on black or white on white. It was pitched from the very start as white on black violence (not by the Martins themselves, but by whoever framed the original pe ions). End of story.
The point about "Most Americans": I totally agree. Most people think the story is overhyped and just want it to be over now. The only ones still caring are the blacks that feel personally offended/hurt (no idea why they do, they just do), the die-hard liberals that want harder gun legislation, and the people like us that choose sides based on what we believe are interesting stories...those are the only people the media is speaking to on this case. The majority are over it because they know Zimmerman will go free, even if they believe the case was handled wrong by police. " happens," says the American people.
it's really not, but there is not enough evidence to conclude murder, now involuntary manslaughter....
What is the evidence presented is no better than what we already know?
Zimmerman walks, and there will always be those who say he's innocent,. and those who say he's guilty.
Like Michael Jackson.
Like OJ Simpson, etc.
I hope the evidence we don't know about is good enough to give a clear verdict, one way or the other.
SAT APR 21, 2012 AT 07:09 PM PDT
More than bloody head revealed: Zimmerman photo shows police lies
by willisnewton
Something is not right here.
Either the photo is wrong or else Timothy Smith's report is wrong.
And now here is the real rub: there is no ongoing outside investigation of Sanford PD, or Norm Wolfinger's office.
Zimmerman on cell phone while he was supposedly handcuffed by police...
According to the police report of one Sanford PD officer Timothy Smith, presumably the only live person there with Zimmerman, he should already be in handcuffs. Here is the language of his report:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/87828890/S...Trayvon-Martin"I was advised by dispatch that the report of shots fired was possibly coming from 1231 Twin Trees Cir.. I was then advised, after receiving multiple calls, that there was a subject laying in the grass in between the residences of 1231 Twin Trees La. and 2821 Retreat View Cir. I responded to 2821 Retreat View Cir and exited my marked Sanford police vehicle and began to canvas the area. As I walked in between the buildings I observed a white male, wearing a red jacket and blue jeans. I also observed a black male, wearing a gray hooded sweat shirt, laying face down in the grass.
I asked the subject in the red jacket, later identified as George Zimmerman (who was original caller for the su ious person complaint), if he had seen the subject. Zimmerman stated that he had shot the subject and he was still armed. Zimmerman complied with all of my verbal commands and was secured in handcuffs. Located on the inside of Zimmerman's waist band, 1 removed a black Kel Tek 9mm PF9 semi auto handgun and holster. While I was in such close contact with Zimmerman, I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground. Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and back of his head.
Shortly after securing Zimmerman, Officer Ricardo Ayala arrived on scene. I advised Officer Ayala that I had not made contact with the black male subject laying on the ground. I observed Officer Ayala make contact with the subject and attempt to get a response, but was met with negative results. Shortly after this, other officers began to arrive on scene along with SFD Rescue 38 who began to give aid to the subject laying on the ground."
link to pdf of police report
http://www.scribd.com/doc/87828890/S...Trayvon-Martin
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
