Holder still lying to congress...

[ElNono]

Not entirely true, but it wasn't because they didn't try...on the previous operation under Bush they were working with the Mexican government and literally put trackers in the guns...they had some technical problems with the trackers on some and did lose them, but it's not because they weren't trying.

Of Course, now ElSmurfo will say "See! You admit guns got away under Bush!"

No, but I'm going to say that goes straight to what I was saying that operations like these are absolutely stupid, no matter who runs them.

And there's still no evidence that they purposely "lost track" of these guns either. It's obvious the whole thing was a terrible idea to begin with.

[CosmicCowboy]

Agree, but there's absolutely no proof they purposely lost control of the weapons. I've been asking for proof of that, and so far: nothing. Post it if you have it. Issa doesn't have it. Let's see what you have.

ElSmurfo, I gave you the actual ATF agents sworn testimony to congress that they were ordered by their superiors to intentionally lose control of the guns.

What the do you want? Go back and read all three testimonies, not just the first one. They were ORDERED to let the guns go to Mexico untraced. There was a virtual rebellion in the Phoenix office by the agents on the ground because what they were being ordered to do was so reprehensible.

[Wild Cobra]

ElNoKnow...

Once again defending the corrupt Obama administration...

[ElNono]

ElSmurfo, I gave you the actual ATF agents sworn testimony to congress that they were ordered by their superiors to intentionally lose control of the guns.

did you read those transcripts at all? I already pointed out to you that they don't say that at all. As a matter of fact, they specifically say they were ordered to track them, just not make arrests.

I tell you what... I'll leave this quote here, from the Dodson's sworn testimony you linked, and you spin it:

"Over the course of the next 10 months that I was involved in this operation, we monitored as they purchased hand guns, AK-47 variants, and .50 caliber rifles almost daily. Rather than conduct any enforcement actions, we took notes, we recorded observations, we tracked movements of these individuals for a short time after their purchases, but nothing more."

"But rather than meet the wolf head on, we sharpened his teeth, added number to his claw, all the while we sat idly by watching, tracking and noting as he became a more efficient and effective predator."

(emphasis mine)

[CosmicCowboy]

BTW, the agents on the ground that blew the whistle after Agent Terry got killed got fired, the agents that ordered them to do it got promoted and moved to DC. What does that tell you about Holders justice department?

[ElNono]

ElNoKnow...

Once again defending the corrupt Obama administration...

link? quote?

Wild Cobra, lying per the usual...

[ElNono]

BTW, the agents on the ground that blew the whistle after Agent Terry got killed got fired, the agents that ordered them to do it got promoted and moved to DC. What does that tell you about Holders justice department?

It tells me it's on par with Alberto Gonzales' DoJ... probably amongst the worst this nation has had...

[ElNono]

BTW, you are aware this was not an ATF-only operation, right?

[CosmicCowboy]

did you read those transcripts at all? I already pointed out to you that they don't say that at all. As a matter of fact, they specifically say they were ordered to track them, just not make arrests.

I tell you what... I'll leave this quote here, from the Dodson's sworn testimony you linked, and you spin it:

"Over the course of the next 10 months that I was involved in this operation, we monitored as they purchased hand guns, AK-47 variants, and .50 caliber rifles almost daily. Rather than conduct any enforcement actions, we took notes, we recorded observations, we tracked movements of these individuals for a short time after their purchases, but nothing more."

"But rather than meet the wolf head on, we sharpened his teeth, added number to his claw, all the while we sat idly by watching, tracking and noting as he became a more efficient and effective predator."

(emphasis mine)

ElSmurfo...

They watched and tracked the INDIVIDUALS for a short time after their purchases, nothing more.... NOT the GUNS

(emphasis mine)

[ElNono]

ElSmurfo...

They watched and tracked the INDIVIDUAL.... NOT the GUNS

(emphasis mine)

They tracked the individuals doing the transactions for the guns... don't be disingenuous now...

[ElNono]

Tell me something else... what role did the DEA play in this operation?

[CosmicCowboy]

I'm tired of arguing with a stupid smurf.

GFY

CC out.

[ElNono]

I'm tired of arguing with a stupid smurf.

GFY

CC out.

When we get to the facts, you run away... noted.

lol red team
lol still waiting for any do ent saying they let all guns walk untracked

[ElNono]

I'll tell you this much: If they were indeed all untracked, it's definitely criminal. If they were tracked and some got lost, then it's still negligent, and somebody should pay, although it's somewhat understandable that these things happens in operations of this scope. Which is why, personally, I think operations like this just shouldn't be on the table to begin with, because the risk is indeed a Border Patrol agent dead using American guns.

Why? I'm not making excuses for Holder. If he ed up, there should be consequences. I thought I was pretty clear on that.

I don't think Holder's DoJ should get a pass either. I actually think neither Holder or the previous DoJ officials should get a pass for running operations like this. It's obvious the risks outweight whatever gains. That said, and as I pointed out earlier, what Issa is doing is trying to score political points. He doesn't give a about the border patrol agents, the guns, the cartels or anything else. An actual investigation should be able to determine by now which guns walked and which ones did not, and what are we looking at: Negligence or outright criminal activity.

Issa isn't interested in that at all. This administration isn't interested in running such an investigation either, seeing how politically charged is this subject. Again, this is far from team colors. This is the political climate we're living in today.

ElNoKnow...

Once again defending the corrupt Obama administration...

[CosmicCowboy]

When we get to the facts, you run away... noted.

lol red team
lol still waiting for any do ent saying they let all guns walk untracked

Too bad you apparently can't read. I overloaded your stupid ass with facts. Facts from the ATF agents on the ground.

You apparently just can't handle them ElSmurfo or you are just too ing lazy to read their testimony.

I didn't run away. I actually have a life outside this forum and went to the ranch to entertain a dad and his kids.

[ElNono]

Too bad you apparently can't read. I overloaded your stupid ass with facts. Facts from the ATF agents on the ground.

You apparently just can't handle them ElSmurfo or you are just too ing lazy to read their testimony.

I posted the damn quotes from your own link. Now you're saying they were tracking people not guns (despite the fact that guns don't sell themselves).

I'm still waiting for the smoking gun... the do ent that allegedly says all guns were walking untracked. Issa is waiting too. chop chop...

Don't get me wrong, the DoJ ed up. That much we know. We just don't know to which degree. Some heads should roll regardless.

All that said, pulling the "blue team" card is a tad bit hypocritical seeing this movie has already been played by the red team too.

What's perhaps funnier is that I've never voted. And I'll probably won't vote this November either, seeing I can get myself to willingly support either candidate.

lol blue team

[Wild Cobra]

CC...

When have you know ElNoKnow to be rational?

[ElNono]

You have anything to add to this conversation?

Didn't think so... lol bootlicker

[Wild Cobra]

You have anything to add to this conversation?

Didn't think so... lol bootlicker

No, I'm just having fun watching CC rip you a new one.


LOL...

Boot licker...

Missed the mark again ElNoKnow.

[Yonivore]

BTW, you are aware this was not an ATF-only operation, right?

That's true. As such, it would seem there would need to be a level of coordination at the highest ranks of all the agencies involved. Holder is stonewalling and he's not even very good at it. Testifying an email between two high-ranking administration officials, discussing "Fast and Furious," wasn't talking about "Fast and Furious" is lying at it's worst. The only reason this administration is able to keep its nose above the water line is because of a complicit media that refuses to look at the many scandals in which it is involved.

For those who want to defend Holder by stating "gun walking" was started in the previous administration; I'd say three things, 1) So?, 2) If it is found that similar operations, in a previous administration, led to the deaths of innocent Mexican citizens and/or U.S. citizens, prosecute them too, and 3) Considering the Obama administration has been pretty liberal in throwing the Bush administration under the bus on just about every negative aspect of his administration, there must be a significant distinction to be made between the gun walking of the Bush Administration and that of the Obama administration. Otherwise, the New York Times would have already had an expose explaining how this is all Bush's fault.

No, I think there is something unique about the way the Obama administration conducted gun-walking. I would think all Americans would want to get to the bottom of it.

For those that continue to harp on the tragic deaths of the Iraq War; reasonable people disagree on the legitimacy of that military action. I'm not sure you'll find any reasonable people that will stand in any administration's corner on an operation such as "Fast and Furious." Apples and Oranges.

[ElNono]

No, I'm just having fun watching CC rip you a new one.

But he isn't... not even close.

lol male cheerleader

[ElNono]

That's true. As such, it would seem there would need to be a level of coordination at the highest ranks of all the agencies involved. Holder is stonewalling and he's not even very good at it. Testifying an email between two high-ranking administration officials, discussing "Fast and Furious," wasn't talking about "Fast and Furious" is lying at it's worst. The only reason this administration is able to keep its nose above the water line is because of a complicit media that refuses to look at the many scandals in which it is involved.

So that's what you're running with? A media conspiracy?

For those who want to defend Holder by stating "gun walking" was started in the previous administration; I'd say three things, 1) So?, 2) If it is found that similar operations, in a previous administration, led to the deaths of innocent Mexican citizens and/or U.S. citizens, prosecute them too, and 3) Considering the Obama administration has been pretty liberal in throwing the Bush administration under the bus on just about every negative aspect of his administration, there must be a significant distinction to be made between the gun walking of the Bush Administration and that of the Obama administration. Otherwise, the New York Times would have already had an expose explaining how this is all Bush's fault.

Saying that gun-tracking started before Holder would be actually an accurate, true statement, and it's completely independent of any attempt to defend Holder (something I didn't do). As CC himself pointed out, apparently some guns were lost in those operations too, which magnifies the stupidity of running such operations, period.

As far as conducting a serious investigation, we're still waiting for it. I'm not holding my breath. Neither party is really interested in it.

Oh, and the New York Times already wrote about that. You just don't read the New York Times. But I'm sure Fox News is buying everything Issa is selling.

No, I think there is something unique about the way the Obama administration conducted gun-walking. I would think all Americans would want to get to the bottom of it.

I don't disagree with this. I just don't think either party has been interested in "all Americans" in a while.

For those that continue to harp on the tragic deaths of the Iraq War; reasonable people disagree on the legitimacy of that military action. I'm not sure you'll find any reasonable people that will stand in any administration's corner on an operation such as "Fast and Furious." Apples and Oranges.

There was nothing accidental about Iraq... "Politician X lied, people died"... it's pretty cut and dry. Making excuses based on the administration color, however, does make you a card-carrying red team member. But that isn't news, tbh.

[Yonivore]

So that's what you're running with? A media conspiracy?

No, not a conspiracy but, where is the coverage?

Saying that gun-tracking started before Holder would be actually an accurate, true statement, and it's completely independent of any attempt to defend Holder (something I didn't do). As CC himself pointed out, apparently some guns were lost in those operations too, which magnifies the stupidity of running such operations, period.

As far as conducting a serious investigation, we're still waiting for it. I'm not holding my breath. Neither party is really interested in it.

Darrell Issa is of which party?

Oh, and the New York Times already wrote about that. You just don't read the New York Times. But I'm sure Fox News is buying everything Issa is selling.

I don't watch FoxNews either. I'll read the article later.

I don't disagree with this. I don't think either party has been interested in "all Americans" in a while.

I'm going to assume your agreement doesn't extend to my assertion gun-walking was unique under Obama.

There was nothing accidental about Iraq... "Politician X lied, people died"... it's pretty cut and dry. Making excuses based on the administration color, however, does make you a card-carrying red team member. But that isn't news, tbh.

Again, reasonable people disagree on the Iraq War. It's not germane to a conversation about "Fast and Furious."

[Yonivore]

Oh, and the New York Times already wrote about that. You just don't read the New York Times. But I'm sure Fox News is buying everything Issa is selling.

Okay, perused the article. Nothing in there about deflecting blame to the Bush Administration; which was my point. If this weren't an operation that is somehow unique (and awfully so) to the Obama administration, I believe there'd be more media stories on "Well, Bush started it and did it too." And, there just isn't.

Are you familiar with Sharyl Attkisson?

I believe she's the only member of the press legitimately trying to delve into the sordid details of the "Fast and Furious" scandal. Yet, she is getting little attention from anyone but, of course, Obama's detractors. , even CBS (her employer) isn't playing up the story. Seem's to me to be a made for 60-Minutes scandal.

Hundreds of dead Mexican citizens.

1 dead American agent.

Whistleblowers fired.

Responsible administrators sequestered, thus insulated from inquiry, in the bowels of national agency headquarters.

The Attorney General committing a demonstrable bald-faced lie in testimony before Congress.

[ElNono]

No, not a conspiracy but, where is the coverage?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/08/us...d-furious.html
http://articles.cnn.com/2012-06-07/p..._s=PM:POLITICS
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20...do ents?lite
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/holde...ry?id=14693578
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...WLV_video.html

Darrell Issa is of which party?

Issa is running a witch hunt, not an investigation. That's why he's more than happy to go to the media first before even receiving an official investigation. Not surprised which party he's from.

I'm going to assume your agreement doesn't extend to my assertion gun-walking was unique under Obama.

I don't think anybody knows that yet, including you and Issa. There's supposedly an investigation being conducted to determine if the tactics used were any different from the previous administration. The conclusions of such investigation aren't available yet.

Again, reasonable people disagree on the Iraq War. It's not germane to a conversation about "Fast and Furious."

When your major criticism/political point is that innocent people died due to a politician lying, it's absolutely germane.